Political Crossfire Forums

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13601 Location: San Diego

FinnMacCool wrote: Quote:
That's just it: I think it's a cop-out to only disagree with capitalistic and governmental coercion. Most anarchists I've met and talked with or read things by somehow believe when things are done by democratic means, they are inherently justified. I disagree comletely.

Why is it a cop out? It is one of the defining principles of anarchism.

And your usage of the word "things" in your second sentence is a little vauge. What "things" do anarchists believe should be decided by democratic means?

How is it not as coercive to live in a socialistic/communistic community where "the majority" or "the people" decide what is right?

By things I mean the economy, justice, law, etc.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8939

jawsome wrote: By things I mean the economy, justice, law, etc.

:? , Not sure if I can agree with that claim then.

Personally, I would say that the economy can be decided on an individual level through a free market, and justice and law are established through natural right and individual establishment.

Narvik · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Orsa

LostSoul3412 wrote: jawsome wrote: By things I mean the economy, justice, law, etc.

:? , Not sure if I can agree with that claim then.

Personally, I would say that the economy can be decided on an individual level through a free market, and justice and law are established through natural right and individual establishment.
individual establishment? Am i miss interpreting you or do you want every man to decide how to punish anyone who he thinks have done something wrong?

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8939

Narvik wrote: Am i miss interpreting you or do you want every man to decide how to punish anyone who he thinks have done something wrong?

Private courts, private security forces to uphold the courts. "Punishment" is for the violator to pay the fees of both, as well as either restore damaged property or uphold their contract. Courts and Force act as checks and balances, but the legislature is eliminated. Each individual determines their own life.

Narvik · Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 607 Location: Orsa

LostSoul3412 wrote: Narvik wrote: Am i miss interpreting you or do you want every man to decide how to punish anyone who he thinks have done something wrong?

Private courts, private security forces to uphold the courts. "Punishment" is for the violator to pay the fees of both, as well as either restore damaged property or uphold their contract. Courts and Force act as checks and balances, but the legislature is eliminated. Each individual determines their own life.
okay, that doesn't sound to bad. But i personally don't think it could work.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

After reading this thread, it would have to be Capitalism.

Communism= Death of the Individual

Capitalism= Pure Freedom to the Individual(economic sense)

I just can't believe there are still communists who argue for it, your arguing against ones self.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8939

Narvik wrote: okay, that doesn't sound to bad. But i personally don't think it could work.

I've argued that it could work on countless other threads... with all due respect that's a different issue for a different day. :wink:

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8939

LetsGetReal wrote: After reading this thread, it would have to be Capitalism.

Communism= Death of the Individual

Capitalism= Pure Freedom to the Individual(economic sense)

I just can't believe there are still communists who argue for it, your arguing against ones self.

:clap:

I would recommend that you read an article I "published" over these forums. "An Anarchist's Retort: On Communism".

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13601 Location: San Diego

LostSoul3412 wrote: jawsome wrote: By things I mean the economy, justice, law, etc.

:? , Not sure if I can agree with that claim then.

Personally, I would say that the economy can be decided on an individual level through a free market, and justice and law are established through natural right and individual establishment.

I think you misunderstood me. I was responding to FinnMacCool's statement about how a lot of Anarchists and Socialists believe things (economy, justice, law, etc.) to be inherently most justifiable and valid when "the majority" decides what is best.

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13601 Location: San Diego

LetsGetReal wrote: After reading this thread, it would have to be Capitalism.

Communism= Death of the Individual

Capitalism= Pure Freedom to the Individual(economic sense)

I just can't believe there are still communists who argue for it, your arguing against ones self.

The ironic thing is a lot of Communists critique Capitalism with a capitalistic approach: they believe people are being exploited of their natural, private right to their labor.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

LostSoul3412 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: After reading this thread, it would have to be Capitalism.

Communism= Death of the Individual

Capitalism= Pure Freedom to the Individual(economic sense)

I just can't believe there are still communists who argue for it, your arguing against ones self.

:clap:

I would recommend that you read an article I "published" over these forums. "An Anarchist's Retort: On Communism". Its a good article but if I get the motivation I'm going to give a Democratic Republic Retort: On Anarchism

Because I believe its a good plan just missing some key points to make it an actually valid one.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8939

jawsome wrote: I think you misunderstood me. I was responding to FinnMacCool's statement about how a lot of Anarchists and Socialists believe things (economy, justice, law, etc.) to be inherently most justifiable and valid when "the majority" decides what is best.

I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist, and that statement doesn't apply to me.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8939

LetsGetReal wrote: Its a good article but if I get the motivation I'm going to give a Democratic Republic Retort: On Anarchism

Because I believe its a good plan just missing some key points to make it an actually valid one.

Well, first off, thank you for reading it. And secondly, I look forward to your own retort.

I have yet to write the fourth installment, but I have a feeling it's going to be on the topic of labor unions.

Spoiler Alert: Labor Unions = :td:

FinnMacCool · Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 2786

jawsome wrote: FinnMacCool wrote: Quote:
That's just it: I think it's a cop-out to only disagree with capitalistic and governmental coercion. Most anarchists I've met and talked with or read things by somehow believe when things are done by democratic means, they are inherently justified. I disagree comletely.

Why is it a cop out? It is one of the defining principles of anarchism.

And your usage of the word "things" in your second sentence is a little vauge. What "things" do anarchists believe should be decided by democratic means?

How is it not as coercive to live in a socialistic/communistic community where "the majority" or "the people" decide what is right?

By things I mean the economy, justice, law, etc.

"The people" are free. That is the whole point of anarchism. Nobody decides whats right and whats wrong.

As to democracy, I don't neccesarily believe that every single decision made under democracy is inherently justifed but democracy, in the form understood by anarchists, is simply the best way to accomadate the needs of the collective while allowing the individual people to have their say. It's not limited to simply a vote, it can be argued, debated etc.

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13601 Location: San Diego

LostSoul3412 wrote: jawsome wrote: I think you misunderstood me. I was responding to FinnMacCool's statement about how a lot of Anarchists and Socialists believe things (economy, justice, law, etc.) to be inherently most justifiable and valid when "the majority" decides what is best.

I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist, and that statement doesn't apply to me.

I know.......that's why I said I think you misunderstood me, as I was responding to another poster in the first place. :wink:

FinnMacCool · Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 2786

Quote:
The ironic thing is a lot of Communists critique Capitalism with a capitalistic approach: they believe people are being exploited of their natural, private right to their labor.

Which they have collectivly produced.

Don't forget about that.

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13601 Location: San Diego

FinnMacCool wrote: Quote:
The ironic thing is a lot of Communists critique Capitalism with a capitalistic approach: they believe people are being exploited of their natural, private right to their labor.

Which they have collectivly produced.

Don't forget about that.

How has someone else collectively produced an individual's right? Do others have the right to your profits/productions if you do not consent to it?

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13601 Location: San Diego

FinnMacCool wrote: jawsome wrote: FinnMacCool wrote: Quote:
That's just it: I think it's a cop-out to only disagree with capitalistic and governmental coercion. Most anarchists I've met and talked with or read things by somehow believe when things are done by democratic means, they are inherently justified. I disagree comletely.

Why is it a cop out? It is one of the defining principles of anarchism.

And your usage of the word "things" in your second sentence is a little vauge. What "things" do anarchists believe should be decided by democratic means?

How is it not as coercive to live in a socialistic/communistic community where "the majority" or "the people" decide what is right?

By things I mean the economy, justice, law, etc.

"The people" are free. That is the whole point of anarchism. Nobody decides whats right and whats wrong.

As to democracy, I don't neccesarily believe that every single decision made under democracy is inherently justifed but democracy, in the form understood by anarchists, is simply the best way to accomadate the needs of the collective while allowing the individual people to have their say. It's not limited to simply a vote, it can be argued, debated etc.

No one decides what is wrong or right? That can't be, as "the people" have made collective decisions as to what the collective will do and what people must consent to if they wish to live in said collective. That, if you ask me, is deciding what is "right," as they would choose other ways if they felt it "wrong."

FinnMacCool · Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 2786

Quote:
No one decides what is wrong or right? That can't be, as "the people" have made collective decisions as to what the collective will do and what people must consent to if they wish to live in said collective. That, if you ask me, is deciding what is "right," as they would choose other ways if they felt it "wrong."

I don't think you really understand.

A collective is nothing more then a group of people who have some set goal, and in anarchism this usually means producing something.

It has nothing to do with abiding by the rules of the collective or anything like that. Nobody really "lives" in the collective. They might work for a collective though, if they so desire.

It's true that there tend to be "rules" in anarchism but they are very loose by definition. All rules can be defined as any action by an individual or group that infringes on a person's natural liberty is wrong.

FinnMacCool · Joined: 07 Sep 2005 Posts: 2786

Quote:
How has someone else collectively produced an individual's right? Do others have the right to your profits/productions if you do not consent to it?

Well you can easily see why you interperted this critique as capitalist when you are still using a capitalistic mindset to criticize anarchism (I'm assuming when you say I'm a communist, you mean anarchist).

When I said collectivly produced, I mean that they "all" had rights to their labor. And socialist critique usually says that none of them should have the right to exploit each other out of their labor either. Or at least thats how I understand it.