Political Crossfire Forums

[topnut]

Well, food for thought. If you think too many gov't officials would have had to been involved for it to have been a conspiracy...well, how many gov't officials work or have been to Area 51 and kept the secrets safe there? We all know that secret technology is being developed there and it is fact that there is a gov't conspiracy to keep the technology secret. So, why do we acceot the Area 51 conspiracy as fact and obviously possible, because its's taking place everyday, but some people say that any other gov't conspiracy, such as JFK or 9/11 is impossible, simply because lots of people would be involved?

[Straudos]

If you can't figure this one out, then you have lost your grip of reality.

A 9/11 conspiracy is high treason, developing secret technology is not.

[democritic]

topnut wrote: Well, food for thought. If you think too many gov't officials would have had to been involved for it to have been a conspiracy...well, how many gov't officials work or have been to Area 51 and kept the secrets safe there? We all know that secret technology is being developed there and it is fact that there is a gov't conspiracy to keep the technology secret. So, why do we acceot the Area 51 conspiracy as fact and obviously possible, because its's taking place everyday, but some people say that any other gov't conspiracy, such as JFK or 9/11 is impossible, simply because lots of people would be involved?

topnut wrote: Well, food for thought. If you think too many gov't officials would have had to been involved for it to have been a conspiracy...well, how many gov't officials work or have been to Area 51 and kept the secrets safe there? We all know that secret technology is being developed there and it is fact that there is a gov't conspiracy to keep the technology secret. So, why do we acceot the Area 51 conspiracy as fact and obviously possible, because its's taking place everyday, but some people say that any other gov't conspiracy, such as JFK or 9/11 is impossible, simply because lots of people would be involved?


Just because a lot of people were involved doesnt really mean anything. Maybe it would be harder to cover up, but just a few people can know about things and depending on what it is people will or wont believe it.


People are afraid. Thats the bottom line. To think that the government would be involved in killing its own people is just tooooo crazy for most people to believe. "we aren't like that" and all of those arguments really show the ignorance of the people and how so many believe what they hear in the mass media and also a lot dont even question ANYTHING.

Some even think that if you say anything about 9/11 being a conspiracy will call you a terrorist and an "un-american" but isnt it more "un-american" to sit down and be brainwashed and fed so much corporate BS all the time. I think robots are un-american. So yea, people are afraid to even think things like that because they are afraid of what others will think of them, and some are just plain ignorant "patriots" that would never challenge this country in anything it does. They have a justification for anything america could possibly do and think that we're the best place yadaa yaddaa yadda.... I think dealing in absolutes like that is ignorant nonsense, but man some peope are really ridiculous.

Haha how about the CIA dealing drugs in LA and other cities in the 80's? People hear that now and STILL say that's BS even though it has been proved numerous times. But, hey it wasnt on fox news so therefore I dont believe it.

Give me a freakin break people! How bout this: "Before the Soviet/Afghan war 0% of US heroin came from Afghanistan. After the war, 40% of US heroin came from Afghanistan." Hmmm, thats really convinient isn't it. Forget the fact that our economy is completley dependent on drug money to exist, America doesnt do crap like that. I mean, there are a million examples of this kind of stuff, and sure a lot of it is BS but there are so many proven ones dude, and still people who's limited, nationalistic, ignorant minds can not grasp the fact that we do some pretty shady stuff.

And I'm not saying that America is the great satan and we are just the worst place ever, im simply focusing on us because I'm from here, and most (I'd say all, but i dont deal in absolutes :lol: ) countries do all sorts of shady stuff. So before you call me an un-american terrorist just remember that I still consider myself to be a proud member of the united states of america, but am getting a little fed up with the way we do things.

[topnut]

Straudos wrote: If you can't figure this one out, then you have lost your grip of reality.

A 9/11 conspiracy is high treason, developing secret technology is not.

Nice to see you back Straudos!

[redhed718]

The inportant thing about how many many people that you should remember,is the military will handle it departmentaly.So while we can finger the heads of government and military to maybe 10 or 20 people. It could have been hundreds of low level people who just didnt know what they were getting involved in and still dont for that matter.(i dont know so much about still not knowing by this point).
I think the better question is....who is to blame for the 9/11 conspiracy.
George the Senior Bush, George W, Dick Cheney for sure, Marvin Bush-He was WTC Head of security whose contract ended on 911,Guliani for hiding the evidence when it ws over. Mr Rumsfeld for attacking the pentagon. Buzzy Cronguard for the thousands of put options he put on those airlines before 911.Just to name a few

[BigOMG]

redhed718 wrote: The inportant thing about how many many people that you should remember,is the military will handle it departmentaly.So while we can finger the heads of government and military to maybe 10 or 20 people. It could have been hundreds of low level people who just didnt know what they were getting involved in and still dont for that matter.(i dont know so much about still not knowing by this point).
I think the better question is....who is to blame for the 9/11 conspiracy.
George the Senior Bush, George W, Dick Cheney for sure, Marvin Bush-He was WTC Head of security whose contract ended on 911,Guliani for hiding the evidence when it ws over. Mr Rumsfeld for attacking the pentagon. Buzzy Cronguard for the thousands of put options he put on those airlines before 911.Just to name a few

10 or 20 people? You think 10 or 20 people placed all the high explosives in the WTC building that all the conspiracy theorists claim brought those building down? That would take months, going on a year. Drill a hole, insert explosive, patch hole in wall, repaint. Do over again.

As for the Put options, American Airlines had just missed the earning target for the quarter and United Airlines had issued a earning warning the week before. Some private investors bought shares in several airlines, Large blocks of stock 100,000 to 1,000,000 shares. To protect their investment they bought puts to protect the investment. A very common and everyday procedure, I have personally done it a thousand times for the Hedge fund I worked for.

[redhed718]

First of all
i never said 10 or 20 people placed explosives in the buildings. I ment the higher ups. Like the names i mentioned.Of course it more than that to plant all the explosives. It took months if not a year to prep those buildings to fall. it was controlled from the FEMA bunker in building 7 that came down late that afternoon to hide that evidence as well.

Professor Steven Jones also part of Shollars for 9/11 truth. who has had the opportunity to get his hands on an test WTC steel has already proven the resadue of thermite and more importantly thermade..which is control demolition grade thermite.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6023596331085044923
to watch the google video
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
to read his expert findings.
And reports were made that floors were shut down,in both buildings, sections at a time, in the months before the collapse. Probably to plant the explosives.How many people did they use. Whos knows..as many as necessary.
As far as insider trading?
Why is the executive director of the cia making put options on those airlines. your dates must be screwed up because No similar trading in other airlines occurred on the Chicago exchange in the days immediately preceding Black Tuesday but his
http://www.hereinreality.com/insidertrading.html

In my other post :more 911 smoking guns
i have expert testimony, including, that from stephen jones on the 9-11 symposium in LA last month. and more expert testimony on how those buildings fell.

[BigOMG]

redhed718 wrote: First of all
i never said 10 or 20 people placed explosives in the buildings. I ment the higher ups. Like the names i mentioned.Of course it more than that to plant all the explosives. It took months if not a year to prep those buildings to fall. it was controlled from the FEMA bunker in building 7 that came down late that afternoon to hide that evidence as well.

Professor Steven Jones also part of Shollars for 9/11 truth. who has had the opportunity to get his hands on an test WTC steel has already proven the resadue of thermite and more importantly thermade..which is control demolition grade thermite.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6023596331085044923
to watch the google video
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
to read his expert findings.
And reports were made that floors were shut down,in both buildings, sections at a time, in the months before the collapse. Probably to plant the explosives.How many people did they use. Whos knows..as many as necessary.
As far as insider trading?
Why is the executive director of the cia making put options on those airlines. your dates must be screwed up because No similar trading in other airlines occurred on the Chicago exchange in the days immediately preceding Black Tuesday but his
http://www.hereinreality.com/insidertrading.html

In my other post :more 911 smoking guns
i have expert testimony, including, that from stephen jones on the 9-11 symposium in LA last month. and more expert testimony on how those buildings fell.

I have a serious problem with that group, scholars for 9/11 truth. They always seem to evade that one detail that might make this a non-conspiracy. What effect a 130 ton aircraft travelling at 200 to 350 knots would do to the super structure of those building? I understand they were built to withstand a 747 hitting them, but how would they know when they built the buildings but not after they have fallen? I have to assume it was bad math somewhere.

[NAB]

BigOMG wrote: redhed718 wrote: First of all
i never said 10 or 20 people placed explosives in the buildings. I ment the higher ups. Like the names i mentioned.Of course it more than that to plant all the explosives. It took months if not a year to prep those buildings to fall. it was controlled from the FEMA bunker in building 7 that came down late that afternoon to hide that evidence as well.

Professor Steven Jones also part of Shollars for 9/11 truth. who has had the opportunity to get his hands on an test WTC steel has already proven the resadue of thermite and more importantly thermade..which is control demolition grade thermite.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6023596331085044923
to watch the google video
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
to read his expert findings.
And reports were made that floors were shut down,in both buildings, sections at a time, in the months before the collapse. Probably to plant the explosives.How many people did they use. Whos knows..as many as necessary.
As far as insider trading?
Why is the executive director of the cia making put options on those airlines. your dates must be screwed up because No similar trading in other airlines occurred on the Chicago exchange in the days immediately preceding Black Tuesday but his
http://www.hereinreality.com/insidertrading.html

In my other post :more 911 smoking guns
i have expert testimony, including, that from stephen jones on the 9-11 symposium in LA last month. and more expert testimony on how those buildings fell.

I have a serious problem with that group, scholars for 9/11 truth. They always seem to evade that one detail that might make this a non-conspiracy. What effect a 130 ton aircraft travelling at 200 to 350 knots would do to the super structure of those building? I understand they were built to withstand a 747 hitting them, but how would they know when they built the buildings but not after they have fallen? I have to assume it was bad math somewhere.

They were designed to withstand the impact of a 707, and not at the speeds to which they were hit. The design was influenced by the possiblilty of an "accidental" impact which would be at much lower speeds than actually happened. See the impact of a B-25 on the Empire State building for the reasoning behind this. It was lost in a fog when it hit that building. When the WTC was designed, the thought of a "purposeful" impact was not part of the design criteria used.

Also, it should be noted that in the case of a catastrophic failure in a building, the design cannot always stop an eventual collapse. The design tries to minimize this to whatever extent it is capabable (via the technologies available at the time of design), in order to get as many of the occupants out as possible. I don't believe that a building designed today could withstand the impact seen on 911. A building designed for that sort of attack today "might" remain standing, but the damage and loss of life would still be high.

[redhed718]

ok
lets try this again
first...watch this video...and i mean watch it in its entirety. Pay little attention to the hannity and colmes part but listen ever so closley and understand. 200 out of the 300 members for 9-11 truth have PHD's in reguards to being professionals in this feild. From structural engineers, to demolitions experts, to physicists, and scientits. 3 of the head engineers of the WTC said it could withstand not 1 but MULTIPLE HITS BY 707's and could withwithstand hurricane force winds over 100 mph with people filling it shoulder to shoulder.Not to mention that steel could withstand tempatures of 2000 degrees for up to 6 hours. Not to mention when a fire erupted in the WTC a few years after it was built it burned for over 6 hours and engulfed 2 floors and it did not weaken the structural steel at all.And why did those buildings fall faster than gravity if a "pancake affect" of floors falling on floors is supposed to have happened. If that had happened ,at 1/2 second per floor based off the resistance of trusts that had not been damaged, its still at least 55 seconds for each buildings.

Professor Jim Fetzer discusses his recent appearance on Hannity and Colmes and how he was able to prepare for the attack on his character that was subsequently attempted. Fetzer details the implausible collapse of the twin towers according to the melting point of steel in comparison with the temperature of jet fuel. This 78-minute high quality presentation also covers the controversy at the Pentagon in depth with slides to accompany the discussion.

http://www.overnightsinthecity.com/071006_fetzer_bb.wmv
right click to save or left click to view

And while the the impacts were only designed to be 707's,how do you answer the question of secondary explosions heard and felt before any planes hit as explained by william Rodriguez
Many of you might not know who William Rodriguez is. But he was the head janitor ant the World Trade Center. On Sept 11th he saved hundreds of people and was in the towers when they collapsed.He was the last living person pulled out from the rubble. He spoke this year at the 9/11 symposium in LA. to help expose the Lying Globalists.Rodriguez passionately engages the audience and discusses the relentless media circus that followed him in the days after 9/11 and his eyewitness accounts of explosions in the underground basement levels of the towers.


Click on the link below to watch the 1 hour speech from William Rodriguez.

http://www.overnightsinthecity.com/070706_rodriguez_bb.wmv

[redhed718]

I should aslo ad that a 3 story building in New York Collapsed last week duo to a gas explosion in the basement. That building burned with 9 story flames shooting out of it for more than an hour before it collapsed.

[NAB]

redhed718 wrote: I should aslo ad that a 3 story building in New York Collapsed last week duo to a gas explosion in the basement. That building burned with 9 story flames shooting out of it for more than an hour before it collapsed.

Was it hit by a 757? Was is steel construction? Was it 110 stories high?

Exactly what point were you trying to make by bringing that up?

[redhed718]

ok...this is getting a little off topic..
watch the movies and read the reports in my above replies before choosing the 1 inferior comment to comment against.
but what i was try to say was how does a 3 story building burn longer and hotter than the WTC before falling. Are we to say that fire will now bring down all steel structures in less that an hour because of 9-11

as we already know planes did not bring those buildings down.the empire state building is a perfect example(it was also hit by a plane).Its 2 seperate hits on 2 seperate buildings. i can understand 2 hits on the same building. Or 4 planes hitting the towers and blaming it on the planes. Next your going to tell me a 757 left a 14 foot hole in the pentagon and then disappeared leaving no trace of itself the passangers or their luggage. The HONEST experts have proven otherwise. Use the links ...view the evidence
what do you want
A notarized admission from the people that did it.
Wath this video .It moniters and notes each of the secondary explosions all the way up to both buildings collapse.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603

The planes that hit the wtc werent even 747's .They were 767's. which are very similay to 707's in weight and mass
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/boeing_707_767.html
i really dont think a few feet in wingspan and about 1000 gallons of gas is going to make that big of a difference considering that planes only fly with a little more than enough gas that is necessary to complete their trip. And the planes flew a considerable distance away before the turned around and flew back.So theres no way in heck you can tell me that they were full of gas.
http://www.freepressinternational.com/wtc_11152004_manager_88888.html
Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resiliance of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001. "The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting".

Demartini, who had an office on the 88th floor of the North Tower, died on 9/11/2001 in the World Trade Center attack.

Architects that designed New York's World Trade Center Towers expressed shock on September 11th that the 110-story landmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was struck by a hijacked passenger jetliner according to MedServ News.

Lee Robertson, the WTC project's structural engineer, addressed the problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, one week prior to 9/11, according to Chicago engineer Joseph Burns.

Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it." [/img]

[Patriot911]

Ahhh.... the good ol' Robertson quote. Too bad you didn't do the research on Robertson you should have. He did indeed design the WTC to withstand the impact of a slow moving 707, but not multiple hits like you claim. That is an outright fallacy. While Robertson designed the building to withstand the impact of a slow moving 707, the resulting fires from the fuel were not taken into consideration.

So lets see.... you have the lead engineer saying the building was designed to withstand the impact alone of a slow moving 707. You claim a 767 is "very similar" in weight to a 707. 335,000 pounds to 395,000 pounds is similar?!? How much damage do you think an extra 60,000 pounds will do when it impacts at 500 miles an hour? So, you have a much larger plane (despite your claims) that hits the building at a much higher rate of speed than was calculated for and the building still stood. Chalk one up for structural engineering! So what does this prove? That severe structural damage plus fire equals collapse.

For the record, Leslie Robertson does not believe the WTC buildings were brought down with explosives, but through structural failure due to fire and structural damage. If you are going to use someone as a source, you should at least make sure he agrees with your position.

Quote: I should aslo ad that a 3 story building in New York Collapsed last week duo to a gas explosion in the basement. That building burned with 9 story flames shooting out of it for more than an hour before it collapsed.

As for your comparison of the explosion in NYC to the WTC collapse, thanks! It gave me a great laugh! First off, the building dynamics of a sky scraper are dramatically different than a three story townhouse. Its like comparing an elephant to a gnat. Second, the building collapsed immediately after the explosion. Third, there were no "9 story flames" shooting out of the building. I am not sure where you get your information from or if you just make it up on the fly, but you really should do a little more research if you wish to have credibility.

[Patriot911]

To the original premise of this thread:

Area 51 and 9/11 are bad comparisons if you want to talk about conspiracies and keeping secrets. The people that work at area 51 go through massive amounts of screening before being allowed to go to area 51 and understand that if they talk about area 51 they will be thrown in prison and will likely never again be a free man.

So how are they suppose to be able to do this level of screening with the thousands of people involved in 9/11? How did the government arrange for only the people they've screened and are assured are in on the conspiracy to be at work that day without any non-conspirators there to witness what "really" happened?

Not to mention the fact you have the moral implications. Area 51 does not involve the murder of thousands of American citizens. It is a job. 9/11, if it were a conspiracy, means thousands of people willingly and knowingly murdered thousands of their fellow Americans. Now, I don't know about you, but I can't imagine finding a handful of people willing to kill thousands of innocent people and keep quiet about it, much less the thousands needed to pull off 9/11. Add to that the fact that you would have to find these people willing to mass murder thousands of their own countrymen in very specific lines of work. Air traffic controllers. Investigators. Rescue personell. Airline workers. FAA employees. Demolitions experts. The list goes on and on and on. Yet you want us to believe the government not only successfully placed every single person who was working on 9/11 but has successfully kept every single one of them quiet? :rofl: Thats a good one!

[free-thinker]

topnut wrote: Well, food for thought. If you think too many gov't officials would have had to been involved for it to have been a conspiracy...
not many at all. as a matter of fact government officials are only involved by being puppets and doing what they told such as "let us handle the investigations"..

their masters took care of organizing carying out attacks. look at senators and president as frontmen in the musical group: they are not necesarily the ones who write music, lyrics or produce, record.... they just sing. but if they sing about killing, they are still guilty

[Patriot911]

free-thinker wrote: topnut wrote: Well, food for thought. If you think too many gov't officials would have had to been involved for it to have been a conspiracy...
not many at all. as a matter of fact government officials are only involved by being puppets and doing what they told such as "let us handle the investigations"..

their masters took care of organizing carying out attacks. look at senators and president as frontmen in the musical group: they are not necesarily the ones who write music, lyrics or produce, record.... they just sing. but if they sing about killing, they are still guilty

As we've seen oh so many times in the past, government officials will sing like canaries if they see something bad being done. Abu Graib. Wiretapping. Phone records. Gitmo. The list goes on and on. These incidences were insignificant in comparison to 9/11, yet you somehow think these government officials would just blindly follow orders despite the magnitude of the crime committed? :rofl: Give me a break! Real life isn't like your neat little fantasy world where everything falls into order. Real life contains real people who can think, rationalize and act on their own. They aren't robots. They would sing like canaries if they thought 9/11 was done by our own government or this mysterious group of "masters" that is actually pulling the strings.

[free-thinker]

Patriot911 wrote: free-thinker wrote: topnut wrote: Well, food for thought. If you think too many gov't officials would have had to been involved for it to have been a conspiracy...
not many at all. as a matter of fact government officials are only involved by being puppets and doing what they told such as "let us handle the investigations"..

their masters took care of organizing carying out attacks. look at senators and president as frontmen in the musical group: they are not necesarily the ones who write music, lyrics or produce, record.... they just sing. but if they sing about killing, they are still guilty

As we've seen oh so many times in the past, government officials will sing like canaries if they see something bad being done. Abu Graib. Wiretapping. Phone records. Gitmo. The list goes on and on.
western politicians will sing what their advisor/sponsors tell them to sing and be silent when they are told to be silent or they are out of the band. like JFKennedy and many others.

proof of this is how they voted on troop pullout: they sang good against bush, then all of a sudden came time to vote... and they were told how to vote. arguments to this fact should be discussed in conspiracy section, not here.

Quote: you somehow think these government officials would just blindly follow orders despite the magnitude of the crime committed? :rofl: Give me a break!
take a vacation

Quote: Real life isn't like your neat little fantasy world where everything falls into order.
u got this backwards

Quote: Real life contains real people who can think, rationalize and act on their own. They aren't robots.
and these real people arent promoted/elected as our senators or government.
Quote: They would sing like canaries if they thought 9/11 was done by our own government or this mysterious group of "masters" that is actually pulling the strings.
if they would get the chance. but now they can sing in their homes to their buddies, but when on the media all singing is done by preselected, the illusion is...

[Patriot911]

free-thinker wrote: Patriot911 wrote: free-thinker wrote: topnut wrote: Well, food for thought. If you think too many gov't officials would have had to been involved for it to have been a conspiracy...
not many at all. as a matter of fact government officials are only involved by being puppets and doing what they told such as "let us handle the investigations"..

their masters took care of organizing carying out attacks. look at senators and president as frontmen in the musical group: they are not necesarily the ones who write music, lyrics or produce, record.... they just sing. but if they sing about killing, they are still guilty

As we've seen oh so many times in the past, government officials will sing like canaries if they see something bad being done. Abu Graib. Wiretapping. Phone records. Gitmo. The list goes on and on.
western politicians will sing what their advisor/sponsors tell them to sing and be silent when they are told to be silent or they are out of the band. like JFKennedy and many others.

proof of this is how they voted on troop pullout: they sang good against bush, then all of a sudden came time to vote... and they were told how to vote. arguments to this fact should be discussed in conspiracy section, not here.

This is your sole piece of proof? That politicians are sometimes two faced but vote correctly when the time comes? :rofl: You obviously don't know many politicians or you wouldn't be touting the line that they are all just listening to their "masters".

free-thinker wrote: Quote: you somehow think these government officials would just blindly follow orders despite the magnitude of the crime committed? :rofl: Give me a break!
take a vacation
Nice comeback. Is this all you can do to prove all these government officials know about 9/11 but are keeping quiet? :rofl:

free-thinker wrote: Quote: Real life isn't like your neat little fantasy world where everything falls into order.
u got this backwards

No, I don't think so. You want to put all government people into the same little box where they all do/think/respond the same way. Reality is they don't do this. They are people just like you and me. They are not robots that can all be programmed a certain way.

free-thinker wrote: Quote: Real life contains real people who can think, rationalize and act on their own. They aren't robots.
and these real people arent promoted/elected as our senators or government.
So you're saying government people aren't real people? Thank you for proving your insanity. :lol:

free-thinker wrote: Quote: They would sing like canaries if they thought 9/11 was done by our own government or this mysterious group of "masters" that is actually pulling the strings.
if they would get the chance. but now they can sing in their homes to their buddies, but when on the media all singing is done by preselected, the illusion is...
Where is this media control when it comes to every other leak or whistleblower? Non existant. :lol: So much for that theory of the grand conspiracy of the controlled media. Seriously... you should give the real world a chance. It is really eye opening and vastly more complex than your dream world.