Political Crossfire Forums

Skywalker · Joined: 22 Jul 2006 Posts: 29

i have only one question to u guys...

am i stupid or that argument is extremly contradictive?!?!?!

i mean WTF?!?! he says "Every nation has the right to defend itself"... what about lebanon?? we dont have the right to defend ourselves?!?!

bush is being a hypocrit here... he really lacks some IQ... i mean he could have thought about it before and come up with something more supportive to Israel... what an idiot!

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3418 Location: Haifa

Skywalker wrote: i mean WTF?!?! he says "Every nation has the right to defend itself"... what about lebanon?? we dont have the right to defend ourselves?!?!
Seems to me the reason many nations (the US isn't the only one) say "Israel has the right to defend itself" right now is that - quite simply - it's extremely obvious Israel was attacked and is defending itself. When you have rocket barrages, cross-border incursions and kidnapping out of the blue, it rightfully generates a pretty strong concept of an unprovoked attack.

Skywalker · Joined: 22 Jul 2006 Posts: 29

oh my god!!! does it get stupider than this??????

dude!!!! hezballah kidnaps 2 soldiers and israel destroys lebanon!!!!!!!!! do u call that defending it self?!?!?!

dont tell me israel is deffending itself from the rockets!!!!!!!!!! cause guess what??? the rockets came after the 3rd day so dont tell me ur deffending urslef because they launched rockets!!! israel started this war!!!

and still u didnt answer my question??? does lebanon has the right to defend itself??? i mean the army!

P.S: if ur media didnt tell u this but the army barracks' in lebanon are being bombed everyday while the army has done nothing!! literaly nothing till now!!!

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 1336

Skywalker wrote: oh my god!!! does it get stupider than this??????

dude!!!! hezballah kidnaps 2 soldiers and israel destroys lebanon!!!!!!!!! do u call that defending it self?!?!?!

dont tell me israel is deffending itself from the rockets!!!!!!!!!! cause guess what??? the rockets came after the 3rd day so dont tell me ur deffending urslef because they launched rockets!!! israel started this war!!!

and still u didnt answer my question??? does lebanon has the right to defend itself??? i mean the army!

P.S: if ur media didnt tell u this but the army barracks' in lebanon are being bombed everyday while the army has done nothing!! literaly nothing till now!!!

Hezbollah has been attacking israel for years.

Skywalker · Joined: 22 Jul 2006 Posts: 29

programmusic wrote: Skywalker wrote: oh my god!!! does it get stupider than this??????

dude!!!! hezballah kidnaps 2 soldiers and israel destroys lebanon!!!!!!!!! do u call that defending it self?!?!?!

dont tell me israel is deffending itself from the rockets!!!!!!!!!! cause guess what??? the rockets came after the 3rd day so dont tell me ur deffending urslef because they launched rockets!!! israel started this war!!!

and still u didnt answer my question??? does lebanon has the right to defend itself??? i mean the army!

P.S: if ur media didnt tell u this but the army barracks' in lebanon are being bombed everyday while the army has done nothing!! literaly nothing till now!!!

Hezbollah has been attacking israel for years.

man that's very stupid from ur part!!!!!!!!! israel INVADED LEBANON and occupied it's territories for years!!!!!! plz keep quiet!!!!!!

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: London

Secondary Oak wrote: Skywalker wrote: i mean WTF?!?! he says "Every nation has the right to defend itself"... what about lebanon?? we dont have the right to defend ourselves?!?!
Seems to me the reason many nations (the US isn't the only one) say "Israel has the right to defend itself" right now is that - quote simply - it's extremely obvious Israel was attacked and is defending itself. When you have rocket barrages, cross-border incursions and kidnapping out of the blue, it rightfully generates a pretty strong concept of an unprovoked attack.

Secondary oak, before Israel attacked Lebanon, myself with other pro-palestinians said from the outset, that in this latest incident regarding Hizbollah, Israel is the aggrieved party. Before even one Israeli ordinance was dropped. I agreed with Israels stance to tackle the scourge of Hizbollah. I knew it was'nt going to be pretty, but only somebody with half a brain and who has just had an aneurysm could say that Israels response was measured. It's been the dismantling and crippling of the Lebanese infrastructure. No explanation on this planet could convince me otherwise. You know i'm NO fan of this Israeli government, but i can tell the difference between right and wrong. I joined in the chorus for Israels right and need to respond to Hizbollah. But one should have known better. giving Israel a blank cheque was a mistake. I expected her to act responsible, but Israel just showed her true colours yet again. the IDF under varying governments dishes out state sanctioned terror under the guise of defense.

What we are seeing on British TV screens are foreign nationals of all ages. These people don't look like Osama Bin-laden and the stereotypical face of the Arab terrorist. The people our news viewers are seeing, are white and the face of middle England. When these people are saying they know somebody who has died, and that Israels bombing is indiscriminate and that Israel is lying when they say "they are not targeting civilians" people take note and listen.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8673 Location: Petah Tikva

Skywalker wrote: oh my god!!! does it get stupider than this??????

dude!!!! hezballah kidnaps 2 soldiers and israel destroys lebanon!!!!!!!!! do u call that defending it self?!?!?!

dont tell me israel is deffending itself from the rockets!!!!!!!!!! cause guess what??? the rockets came after the 3rd day so dont tell me ur deffending urslef because they launched rockets!!! israel started this war!!!

and still u didnt answer my question??? does lebanon has the right to defend itself??? i mean the army!

P.S: if ur media didnt tell u this but the army barracks' in lebanon are being bombed everyday while the army has done nothing!! literaly nothing till now!!!

Hezbollah has been launching rockets and cross border raids for years now, and this attack just tipped the balance. They killed 9 soldiers, captured 2 others and wounded more than 30 soldiers and civilians in follow up bombardments. Hezbollah was too succesful in this attack for their own good and tipped the balance and has stirred us to great anger and resolve.

As for the Lebanese Army, what on earth do you expect them to do?

They have no planes to engage the IAF.
They have no SAMS or any sort of advanced anti air weapons.
Their main Anti-Aircraft is in essence the Flak Gun.

If they take some pointless pot shots at the IAF then they only incur attacks at those positions needlessly.

If the Lebanese Army plans on taking action (Highly, highly, highly unlikely), in ground combat this would be a relativly safe action. It means they get to wait out their aerial bombardment without being attacked and thus keep organization.

maalox · Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 133 Location: above u

who ever mentioned the lebanese army ? u "IAF and IDF"

just shut up

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8673 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: P.S: if ur media didnt tell u this but the army barracks' in lebanon are being bombed everyday while the army has done nothing!! literaly nothing till now!!!

Right there Maalox, I was responding to his point.

Something you never seem to do with anyone.

Quote: just shut up

I must respectfully decline.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 1336

Skywalker wrote: programmusic wrote: Skywalker wrote: oh my god!!! does it get stupider than this??????

dude!!!! hezballah kidnaps 2 soldiers and israel destroys lebanon!!!!!!!!! do u call that defending it self?!?!?!

dont tell me israel is deffending itself from the rockets!!!!!!!!!! cause guess what??? the rockets came after the 3rd day so dont tell me ur deffending urslef because they launched rockets!!! israel started this war!!!

and still u didnt answer my question??? does lebanon has the right to defend itself??? i mean the army!

P.S: if ur media didnt tell u this but the army barracks' in lebanon are being bombed everyday while the army has done nothing!! literaly nothing till now!!!

Hezbollah has been attacking israel for years.

man that's very stupid from ur part!!!!!!!!! israel INVADED LEBANON and occupied it's territories for years!!!!!! plz keep quiet!!!!!!

After the PLO attacked Israel from Lebanon and attempted to assasinate the Israeli ambassador.

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3418 Location: Haifa

Plato & Socrates wrote: I knew it was'nt going to be pretty, but only somebody with half a brain and who has just had an aneurysm could say that Israels response was measured.
Measured to what exactly? How the hell can you measure a response? I have no doubt many nations worldwide would have done no less than Israel when faced with the same aggression. Honestly.

Quote: It's been the dismantling and crippling of the Lebanese infrastructure. No explanation on this planet could convince me otherwise.
You don't need to be convinced otherwise. It's the stated purpose of Israel to destroy a significant part of the Lebanese infrastructure, which is obviously utilized by Hezbollah as well. You can say that in your opinion it's too much and it simply serves to pressure the civilian population. Okay, that's your opinion. But from looking at the list of targets I generally disagree.

Quote: But one should have known better. giving Israel a blank cheque was a mistake.
I don't give my government blank cheques, and I'm surprised you do. But keep in mind that in the Israeli public - which is often split like 50-50 between left and right - the support for the government's actions right now is well over 80%. Maybe close to 90%. Many believe this is as close as Israel got to what we call a "non-choice war" in the recent decades. And we know the Lebanese are suffering. And we know our actions may only incite more hatred towards us. But we simply don't have a choice, we can't let the situation continue like this. And we tried the path of restraint and diplomacy for 6 years, so don't give me that argument.

Quote: When these people are saying they know somebody who has died, and that Israels bombing is indiscriminate and that Israel is lying when they say "they are not targeting civilians" people take note and listen.
I have no doubt they are wrong. Unlike them, I'm actually familiar with how the IDF selects its targets. Though it's very much possible some of the targets weren't a good idea, the intent remains the same.

Skywalker - not to sound patronizing, but your million exclamation / question marks and your "plz keep quiet" style isn't exactly what those forums are supposed to be.

maalox · Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 133 Location: above u

and ur point is mr dimwit ?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8673 Location: Petah Tikva

I would say your on thin ice but I'm late on the uptake, your already suspended.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1642

maalox wrote: and ur point is mr dimwit ?

he is totally showing the rest here a 180 degree opposite view of lebanese people.

where are his manners?

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:55 am Post subject:

Yes they have a right to defend themselves, however due to the fact there yet to declare war they odviously choosing to negate that right.

X-Shocker · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 167 Location: All around you

Skywalker wrote: i have only one question to u guys...

am i stupid or that argument is extremly contradictive?!?!?!

i mean WTF?!?! he says "Every nation has the right to defend itself"... what about lebanon?? we dont have the right to defend ourselves?!?!

bush is being a hypocrit here... he really lacks some IQ... i mean he could have thought about it before and come up with something more supportive to Israel... what an idiot!

Bush's statement is very clear and to the point. Lebonan is not the one being attacked, but the one starting the attacks. Therefore, Lebonan has no country to defend itself from, and, thus, Bush's statement does not apply to Lebonan. However, at this point, Lebonan can openly declare war upon Israel and all shellings will be legal under the Geneva Conference.

Redruin · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 924

"Bush's statement is very clear and to the point. Lebonan is not the one being attacked, but the one starting the attacks. Therefore, Lebonan has no country to defend itself from, and, thus, Bush's statement does not apply to Lebonan. However, at this point, Lebonan can openly declare war upon Israel and all shellings will be legal under the Geneva Conference."

I beg to differ. What is Israel doing to Lebanon if not attacking it?

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Redruin wrote: "Bush's statement is very clear and to the point. Lebonan is not the one being attacked, but the one starting the attacks. Therefore, Lebonan has no country to defend itself from, and, thus, Bush's statement does not apply to Lebonan. However, at this point, Lebonan can openly declare war upon Israel and all shellings will be legal under the Geneva Conference."

I beg to differ. What is Israel doing to Lebanon if not attacking it?

The right of self-defense contains in itself the right to attack (counter-attack) if you wish. If it does not, then it is not really a right of self-defense, it is just a right to sit quietly and absorb blows, one after another, without reaction.

So I can easily ask the same question of you. Do you think Israel has a right of self-defense? And if so, what good is a right of self-defense, it it does not include the right to counter-attack? I.E., does the right of self-defense, in your understanding, amount to merely sitting quietly and waiting for the next attack? Or does it include taking pro-active measures?

Redruin · Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 924

"So I can easily ask the same question of you. Do you think Israel has a right of self-defense? And if so, what good is a right of self-defense, it it does not include the right to counter-attack? I.E., does the right of self-defense, in your understanding, amount to merely sitting quietly and waiting for the next attack? Or does it include taking pro-active measures?"

Oh Israel has the right of self defense, people who deny this are simply not being reasonable. But saying so, the Lebanese people also have the right to live in peace, just as all Israelis do. The problem occuring now with Israel exercising its right to self defense is, it is attacking the wrong people. The number of civilian casualties clearly indicate the wrong people are dying. People not responsible for the attacks on Israel are being killed, and not in small numbers mind you. Self defense does not give you the right to flatten Lebanon. I think you will agree there are limits to what you can include within the category of self defense. Dropping a bomb knowing civilians are within the vacinity of your target is no longer just an act of self defense, it is now also an act of aggression upon the civilian. Following this line of thinking, if you still believe it is justified to drop the bomb, why would you stop short of using chemical or nuclear weapons to elimate your target completely. Well, I would say it's because even though you believe it is still justified, the fear you have that everyone else would condemn your actions and label you as crazy stops you from doing it. And that is probably the only thing restraining Israel now judging from its current actions. So in summary, I agree with you that Israel has the right of self defense, but I consider the manner in which it is exercising this right to be unjustified.

Skywalker · Joined: 22 Jul 2006 Posts: 29

man really u israeli are hard to argue with... it doesnt seem that ur using the common sense we all know...