Political Crossfire Forums

micfranklin · Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: Clone army?

I was thinking to myself: since it is possible to clone a living thing, is it possible for the government to clone and create an army made up of human clones?

Needless to say I got the idea from watching Attack of the Clones last night :wink:

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Yes it is possible. The question is, is it ethical?

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7747 Location: Manchestar, innit

It would be rather a waste of money.

micfranklin · Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject:

Yeah, but just think. By cloning soldiers from one man, that's about 40 million real humans who won't have to fight and die. 40 million lives that won't get wasted, unless the clones are considered "real."

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

micfranklin wrote: Yeah, but just think. By cloning soldiers from one man, that's about 40 million real humans who won't have to fight and die. 40 million lives that won't get wasted, unless the clones are considered "real."

I think we would have to consider them real. I think even Bush would have to say they are real. Although I can imagine he wouldn't want to, but if he didn't, he would be stuck in a contradiction given his recent stem-cell veto.

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

I don't believe it is ethical. But if you asked me why, I wouldn't really know how to answer. Maybe we're discovering that human life isn't actually all that valuable?

Wolverine · Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 11048 Location: Podunk, Colorado

A clone is as close to human as you and me.

VBach37 · Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 1987 Location: New Hampshire

I think we should be more concerned with the possibility of a droid army. The technology to make such a thing possible is rapidly coming of age. Within the last year, Disney World has added a new animatronic feature to the Animal Kingdom park. A free-walking dino that responds to audio and visual stimuli. How much farther would it take scientists to create primitive battle droids.

David · Joined: 28 Dec 2003 Posts: 12423 Location: Louisiana

VBach37 wrote: I think we should be more concerned with the possibility of a droid army. The technology to make such a thing possible is rapidly coming of age. Within the last year, Disney World has added a new animatronic feature to the Animal Kingdom park. A free-walking dino that responds to audio and visual stimuli. How much farther would it take scientists to create primitive battle droids.

I saw something on this the other day on one of the discovery channels.They are working on this as we speak.

eynon · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:31 am Post subject:

David wrote: VBach37 wrote: I think we should be more concerned with the possibility of a droid army. The technology to make such a thing possible is rapidly coming of age. Within the last year, Disney World has added a new animatronic feature to the Animal Kingdom park. A free-walking dino that responds to audio and visual stimuli. How much farther would it take scientists to create primitive battle droids.

I saw something on this the other day on one of the discovery channels.They are working on this as we speak.

read all about it at:
http://www.darpa.mil/body/news/current/index.asp

personally I believe a clone army would be crushed by an army of free-citizens.....motivation and initative are powerful factors in determining an armies effectiveness..

besides we all know who ended up winning Star-wars in the end.....teh brave fighting men and women of the rebel alliance, neither droid nor clone:

go get em boys 8:)

micfranklin · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:53 am Post subject:

Eynon81 wrote: David wrote: VBach37 wrote: I think we should be more concerned with the possibility of a droid army. The technology to make such a thing possible is rapidly coming of age. Within the last year, Disney World has added a new animatronic feature to the Animal Kingdom park. A free-walking dino that responds to audio and visual stimuli. How much farther would it take scientists to create primitive battle droids.

I saw something on this the other day on one of the discovery channels.They are working on this as we speak.

read all about it at:
http://www.darpa.mil/body/news/current/index.asp

personally I believe a clone army would be crushed by an army of free-citizens.....motivation and initative are powerful factors in determining an armies effectiveness..

besides we all know who ended up winning Star-wars in the end.....teh brave fighting men and women of the rebel alliance, neither droid nor clone:

go get em boys 8:)

But I'm sure the government would just go ahead and start cloning people anyway, and train them for combat. It sounds like something they would do.

Another Star Wars fan, I see 8:) BTW the Rebels lost that battle you got pictured up there.

eynon · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:31 am Post subject:

micfranklin wrote: Eynon81 wrote: David wrote: VBach37 wrote: I think we should be more concerned with the possibility of a droid army. The technology to make such a thing possible is rapidly coming of age. Within the last year, Disney World has added a new animatronic feature to the Animal Kingdom park. A free-walking dino that responds to audio and visual stimuli. How much farther would it take scientists to create primitive battle droids.

I saw something on this the other day on one of the discovery channels.They are working on this as we speak.

read all about it at:
http://www.darpa.mil/body/news/current/index.asp

personally I believe a clone army would be crushed by an army of free-citizens.....motivation and initative are powerful factors in determining an armies effectiveness..

besides we all know who ended up winning Star-wars in the end.....teh brave fighting men and women of the rebel alliance, neither droid nor clone:

go get em boys 8:)

But I'm sure the government would just go ahead and start cloning people anyway, and train them for combat. It sounds like something they would do.

Another Star Wars fan, I see 8:) BTW the Rebels lost that battle you got pictured up there.

ok tactically, in strategic terms it was a succesful rear-guard action...ergo Vader breaking that admiral's neck...oh and then that captains' neck later on.......plus they ended up winning the war.

but I digress........citizen armies, only way to go :)

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

Building a clone army would be useless.

A. Cloning only produces embryos that need 15 to 18 years to mature, 9 months of it in a mother that you have to get from somewhere. Giving the enemy much time to recruit much faster and more reliably the old fashioned way.
B. Humans are as much a product of environment as genes, ie a cloned soldier might be useless, the odds of which probably approach the normal rates of military intakes.
C. So far cloning, while working has tended to be problematic for the offspring often resulting in shortened lifespan and other problems - see Dolly.
D. A Clone is in all respects 'human' thus being endowed with all the rights enjoyed by other members of the society. So you can't just lock them in a research facility from birth and train them to be mega-soldiers (ala the film Soldier). Unless you can do the same to normal members of society.
E. Cloning costs a whole heap more than sex. You would get better results by starting mandatory eugenic pregnancy evaluations and terminations. So the carriers of genetic diseases and vulnerabilities can't breed. Much cheaper.

Izzibeth · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 423

heh

a clone is another human being. it is not a mindless drone. clones, as we make them today, are a completely separate person from the human being they are cloned from. they have their own thoughts, their own "soul", their own body, etc. they are simply a genetic clone. a completely separate human being. they would have a childhood in which they would learn, develop a personality, develop fears/phobias, likes and dislikes.. and such. clones as we make them today are not science fiction clones from movies that are just mindless drones with super-human muscles and no individual thoughts.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

micfranklin wrote: I was thinking to myself: since it is possible to clone a living thing, is it possible for the government to clone and create an army made up of human clones?

Needless to say I got the idea from watching Attack of the Clones last night :wink:

Well, under current technology, the problem is that clones would take at least 15-16 yrs before they would be capable of becoming soldiers.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

micfranklin wrote: Yeah, but just think. By cloning soldiers from one man, that's about 40 million real humans who won't have to fight and die. 40 million lives that won't get wasted, unless the clones are considered "real."

Why would they not be real? Identical twins, for example, are naturally occuring clones. They are "real."

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Ek0nomik wrote: micfranklin wrote: Yeah, but just think. By cloning soldiers from one man, that's about 40 million real humans who won't have to fight and die. 40 million lives that won't get wasted, unless the clones are considered "real."

I think we would have to consider them real. I think even Bush would have to say they are real. Although I can imagine he wouldn't want to, but if he didn't, he would be stuck in a contradiction given his recent stem-cell veto.

Of course he would view that they are real. There is no other logical choice. I have heard no religious person claim that clones wouldn't be "real."

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Wolverine wrote: A clone is as close to human as you and me.

A clone is as human as you and me, besides possibly having apparent cell ages that are older than their bodies.

The Central Scrutinizer · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:33 am Post subject:

Most people seem to be thinking of clones as being somehow "not human" in the sense that they are "copies" of another living thing. But as perdidochas pointed out, identical twins are basically the same thing as clones--two individuals with identical genetic material.

If I were to take someone's blood and make a clone of him, I could not make an exact copy of him. His genes might be expressed different ways, and the environment in which he was raised would be almost certainly different. Essentially, a clone, while though genetically identical to its progenitor, would be a completely different person. I don't see any reason, be it moral, logical, scientific, or philosophical, that precludes a clone from being as human as any naturally created human, and I certainly don't see any ethical problem if we create them. The genetic material is the same, but those are just genes. Genes are a major but not the only factor in the growth and maturation of any life form. Fundamentally, the person will be different.

micfranklin · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Clone army?

perdidochas wrote: micfranklin wrote: I was thinking to myself: since it is possible to clone a living thing, is it possible for the government to clone and create an army made up of human clones?

Needless to say I got the idea from watching Attack of the Clones last night :wink:

Well, under current technology, the problem is that clones would take at least 15-16 yrs before they would be capable of becoming soldiers.

But I wonder if technology will allow clones to mature in about the half the time it takes a human to mature? :think: