Political Crossfire Forums

[Pebble]

In mid 1982 Israel occupied Southern Lebanon, the eventual tally of civilians killed in and around Beirut during this period of conflict would reach into the 1000s. During this time. Hezbollah was formed, drawing its support from the disgruntled people of Southern Lebanon.

The actions of Israel during this period gave birth the modern day Hezbollah, the results of which are something that the Israeli people are still feeling today. An incursion back into the area and the subsequent resentment amongst the civilian population, allready inflamed by Israeli airstikes would feed directly into Hezbollah's hands.

I think we can therefore all agree that possible the stupidest move that Isreal could pull now is to reoccupy Southern Lebanon. To do so would mark a massive upsurge in Hezbolalh support and would leave the entire issue, as Dan Halutz put it, "back 20 years."

[SaladFingers]

Of course, you do realize that around 1982, all of Israel's neighboring countries absolutely hated Israel, and despite the fact they combined forces to attack Israel.. they still got whooped.

Just because Hezbollah was born from this occupation, doesn't mean that other terrorist cells were in operation at this time. Terrorists do not care about the people, look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israel.. when an attack occurs dozens of civilians are maimed or killed.

Its easy to see now just how quickly Civilian casualties rise when you deal with terrorists. I doubt there will ever be a war, especially considering one dealing with terrorism, that it will be a cleanly conducted operation.

Civilians will always be suspected as terrorists, or caught in the middle of it, its just the way things are.

Look at how many Iraqi citizens have died during our occupation of it.

[Pebble]

Right.

Do you disagree with my point? Your post was mainly a non-sequiter...

[Duchifas]

Pebble wrote: In mid 1982 Israel occupied Southern Lebanon, the eventual tally of civilians killed in and around Beirut during this period of conflict would reach into the 1000s. During this time. Hezbollah was formed, drawing its support from the disgruntled people of Southern Lebanon.

The actions of Israel during this period gave birth the modern day Hezbollah, the results of which are something that the Israeli people are still feeling today. An incursion back into the area and the subsequent resentment amongst the civilian population, allready inflamed by Israeli airstikes would feed directly into Hezbollah's hands.

I think we can therefore all agree that possible the stupidest move that Isreal could pull now is to reoccupy Southern Lebanon. To do so would mark a massive upsurge in Hezbolalh support and would leave the entire issue, as Dan Halutz put it, "back 20 years."

I see you've done some research and found out that Israel's invasion gave birth to Hizbollah.

Care to tell us what Israel rid Lebanon of during that invasion? That's actually quite important.

[Nico]

Duchifas wrote: Pebble wrote: In mid 1982 Israel occupied Southern Lebanon, the eventual tally of civilians killed in and around Beirut during this period of conflict would reach into the 1000s. During this time. Hezbollah was formed, drawing its support from the disgruntled people of Southern Lebanon.

The actions of Israel during this period gave birth the modern day Hezbollah, the results of which are something that the Israeli people are still feeling today. An incursion back into the area and the subsequent resentment amongst the civilian population, allready inflamed by Israeli airstikes would feed directly into Hezbollah's hands.

I think we can therefore all agree that possible the stupidest move that Isreal could pull now is to reoccupy Southern Lebanon. To do so would mark a massive upsurge in Hezbolalh support and would leave the entire issue, as Dan Halutz put it, "back 20 years."

I see you've done some research and found out that Israel's invasion gave birth to Hizbollah.

Care to tell us what Israel rid Lebanon of during that invasion? That's actually quite important.

Don't tell us the PLO, because you gave the PLO to them to begin with. And sabra and Chatila were a blight on Israel's reputation in that regard. Just chasing them from one place to another doesn't rest in the credit column.

[Duchifas]

Nico wrote: Duchifas wrote: Pebble wrote: In mid 1982 Israel occupied Southern Lebanon, the eventual tally of civilians killed in and around Beirut during this period of conflict would reach into the 1000s. During this time. Hezbollah was formed, drawing its support from the disgruntled people of Southern Lebanon.

The actions of Israel during this period gave birth the modern day Hezbollah, the results of which are something that the Israeli people are still feeling today. An incursion back into the area and the subsequent resentment amongst the civilian population, allready inflamed by Israeli airstikes would feed directly into Hezbollah's hands.

I think we can therefore all agree that possible the stupidest move that Isreal could pull now is to reoccupy Southern Lebanon. To do so would mark a massive upsurge in Hezbolalh support and would leave the entire issue, as Dan Halutz put it, "back 20 years."

I see you've done some research and found out that Israel's invasion gave birth to Hizbollah.

Care to tell us what Israel rid Lebanon of during that invasion? That's actually quite important.

Don't tell us the PLO, because you gave the PLO to them to begin with.

Whaa? Care to clarify?

Quote: And sabra and Chatila were a blight on Israel's reputation in that regard. Just chasing them from one place to another doesn't rest in the credit column.

Well, it was much better to have them in Tunisia than on Israel's northern border.

[TacticalSniper]

Nico, you should open a history book, as PLO operated mostly from Jordan's West Bank as a terrorist organization since 1964 (three years prior to "occupation"). King of Jordan saw the problem with the Palestinians, and he massacred about 10,000 of them during the Black September. Arafat and his folks ran off to Jordan, where Lebanese gov't signed a deal with the PLO letting them to militarily operate on Lebanese soil. PLO attacked Israel constantly, including taking hostages in Israeli hotel close to the border with Lebanon and taking children hostage in Israeli Maalot - all of them were eventually murdered. Israel then decided to get rid of PLO once and for all and entered South Lebanon only. However, most PLO terrorists ran away from Israeli army (unlike Hezbollah today) into Lebanon's more southern areas. Mostly - Beirut. Israeli command decided to make a move and get rid of the PLO.

I still never seen actual evidence that Israel was responsible for Sabra and Shatilla. It was an inner Lebanese matter, done without help of Israel.

[Yoadm]

Pebble wrote: In mid 1982 Israel occupied Southern Lebanon, the eventual tally of civilians killed in and around Beirut during this period of conflict would reach into the 1000s. During this time. Hezbollah was formed, drawing its support from the disgruntled people of Southern Lebanon.

The actions of Israel during this period gave birth the modern day Hezbollah, the results of which are something that the Israeli people are still feeling today. An incursion back into the area and the subsequent resentment amongst the civilian population, allready inflamed by Israeli airstikes would feed directly into Hezbollah's hands.

I think we can therefore all agree that possible the stupidest move that Isreal could pull now is to reoccupy Southern Lebanon. To do so would mark a massive upsurge in Hezbolalh support and would leave the entire issue, as Dan Halutz put it, "back 20 years."

Israel doesnt intend to reoccupy southern lebanon.

[superskippy]

I highly doubt that we intend to do anything to Southern Lebanon. At the most we will create a buffer zone to limit the rocket attacks if needed. A better solution would be to fill that buffer zone with an International Force, that has rules of engagement that allow it to activly prevent Hezbolalh from moving into the region and bringing in rockets.

The idea of occupying any large part of Lebanon though simply doesnt make sense.

[mr_happy]

With all this whining about Shabra and Shatila, I would like to emntion that the person in direct command of the massacre, ended his life in the Lebanese parliament. So people condemn Sharon for his indirect responsibility, yet honor the man with direct culpability with a seat in parliament.

[Secondary Oak]

mr_happy wrote: With all this whining about Shabra and Shatila, I would like to emntion that the person in direct command of the massacre, ended his life in the Lebanese parliament. So people condemn Sharon for his indirect responsibility, yet honor the man with direct culpability with a seat in parliament.
Source?

[maalox]

i think that the worste step is NOT to cease fire

[Nico]

TacticalSniper wrote: Nico, you should open a history book, as PLO operated mostly from Jordan's West Bank as a terrorist organization since 1964 (three years prior to "occupation"). King of Jordan saw the problem with the Palestinians, and he massacred about 10,000 of them during the Black September. Arafat and his folks ran off to Jordan, where Lebanese gov't signed a deal with the PLO letting them to militarily operate on Lebanese soil. PLO attacked Israel constantly, including taking hostages in Israeli hotel close to the border with Lebanon and taking children hostage in Israeli Maalot - all of them were eventually murdered. Israel then decided to get rid of PLO once and for all and entered South Lebanon only. However, most PLO terrorists ran away from Israeli army (unlike Hezbollah today) into Lebanon's more southern areas. Mostly - Beirut. Israeli command decided to make a move and get rid of the PLO.

I still never seen actual evidence that Israel was responsible for Sabra and Shatilla. It was an inner Lebanese matter, done without help of Israel.


My historical PLO dig was general. essentially if there weren't refugees, there would be no PLO. By pushing the palestinians out of the region, they had to go somewhere else. The results shouldn't be a surprise :-|
The fact of the matter is that the Palestinian body of people are unwanted guests wherever they go, and guests can only stay so long.
as for Black september, more of the same. And where did the terrorists who killed the israelis at munich come from? the refugee camps. You can't take credit for routing an enemy when you created an enemy by taking their homes to begin with.


sabra and chatila: Israeli forces tried hard to distance themselves from the events, but siccing your dogs onto someone, doesn't free you from reponsibility for the consequences. Israel controlled the external boundary and allowed the fascist phallangists into the camps.
Some of you like to bag Robert fisk, but here's his eye witness account of the aftermath. if you like your history, you will find it relevant, if you can avoid looking away from the screen:

http://www.counterpunch.org/fisksabra.html

[superskippy]

Quote: sabra and chatila: Israeli forces tried hard to distance themselves from the events, but siccing your dogs onto someone, doesn't free you from reponsibility for the consequences. Israel controlled the external boundary and allowed the fascist phallangists into the camps.
Some of you like to bag Robert fisk, but here's his eye witness account of the aftermath. if you like your history, you will find it relevant, if you can avoid looking away from the screen:

We do bear some responsability mostly the criminal negligence on the part of the IDF field commanders near the refugee camps. The bulk of the burden remains with the Phalange militia.

What I always vehemently and strongly oppose is the constant string of attacks attempting to tie Arial Sharon in as a monster for a massacre he had nothing to do with.

[vadardenza]

Lebanon:

1. The Shiite Lebanese are indigenous to Lebanon. They are not leaving as the PLO did. It is their land and they will fight to the end for it. They also know the land far better than the PLO or the Israelis.

2. When they last occupied Lebanon the Israelis cynically allied themselves with a small Christian minority in the south who just happened to be admirers of Mussolini, Hitler and Franco, hence called the Phalange (as in Falangistas, the Spanish fascists). These fascists were given free rein by the Israelis to kill and oppress Shiite Lebanese and Palestinians, the majority population in the south. They killed many Palestinians at the camps under Israeli supervision, but they also killed thousands Shiite villagers.

3. The Israelis were driven out of Lebanon by Hezbullah, a Shiite resistence created to drive the Israeli occupier out of Southern Lebanon. No Israeli bulls**t changes this fact.

[superskippy]

Quote: 1. The Shiite Lebanese are indigenous to Lebanon. They are not leaving as the PLO did. It is their land and they will fight to the end for it. They also know the land far better than the PLO or the Israelis.

We're not asking or wanting the Shiites to leave. We want the militants and terrorists of Hezbollah to die, we want to level such heavy blows against them that their power is severly damaged.

Quote: 3. The Israelis were driven out of Lebanon by Hezbullah, a Shiite resistence created to drive the Israeli occupier out of Southern Lebanon. No Israeli bulls**t changes this fact.

As we have offered a multitude of evidence to the contrary, and you have offered none I will not defer or consider that claim.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

superskippy wrote: I highly doubt that we intend to do anything to Southern Lebanon. At the most we will create a buffer zone to limit the rocket attacks if needed. A better solution would be to fill that buffer zone with an International Force, that has rules of engagement that allow it to activly prevent Hezbolalh from moving into the region and bringing in rockets.

The idea of occupying any large part of Lebanon though simply doesnt make sense.

That would be an odd thing to do considering that if need be, they can just get medium range missiles where they wouldn't need to get close to the Israeli border.

[vadardenza]

"As we have offered a multitude of evidence to the contrary, and you have offered none I will not defer or consider that claim."

You have offered a bunch of bulls**t as evidence. The fact that a US funded and armed military considered only less capable than the US, Russia, and China is having difficulty in suppressing an under funded, under armed resistance demonstrates that Hizbullah has the esprit de corps to defend their land. The Pals are amateurs having been downbeaten all their lives to believe that the Israelis are masters and they are slaves.

[23KIA]

Israel is taking the appropriate steps.

This business of always being the victim is tired, and even nearby Arab nations arent buying into it.

Hezbollah bought this with their actions, period. THe Lebanese bought this with the direct, and indirect, support of Hezbollah. If the citizens are so concerned for their well-being they should not support Hezbollah, yet they continue.

We lament the loss of civilian life. Lives lost due to the purposeful usage of civilian areas for launching rockets, storing military hardware and maintaining group HQ.

It may have worked at one time, but even those inclined to hate Israel are seeing the reality.

[superskippy]

vadardenza wrote: "As we have offered a multitude of evidence to the contrary, and you have offered none I will not defer or consider that claim."

You have offered a bunch of bulls**t as evidence. The fact that a US funded and armed military considered only less capable than the US, Russia, and China is having difficulty in suppressing an under funded, under armed resistance demonstrates that Hizbullah has the esprit de corps to defend their land. The Pals are amateurs having been downbeaten all their lives to believe that the Israelis are masters and they are slaves.

Oh and your military is having such an easy time beating down the resistance in Afghanistan, Iraq, and failed in Vietnam and Somalia.

Comparing the Palestinians and Hezbollah with at least 50 years more experiance and build up of equipment in the area of guerilla warfare and terrorism than the enemies you are facing right now, it's a very arrogant claim.

Now to address that we are having issues, on the contrary we are going at our own set pace. That we are moving at our own set pace not being dictated by Hezbollah is an indicator that we are in control of the tactical situation not them.

We have crossed into Lebanon and killed at least 200 militants as reports come from the border today, captured arms caches, and destroyed several medium range missile and rocket sites.

Again I must say you have not offered any evidence or reasoning to your point.