Political Crossfire Forums

[Nico]

I don't want to be doing more bannings. Pse people, I don't care how bad you have it, if you want a voice on the forum, keep it within the rules.

[skinn]

superskippy wrote: skinn wrote: superskippy wrote: I'm sorry to say I'm not sadastic enough to enjoy it, feel free to enjoy it if it does in fact entertain you.

Though I must say a few of them are either faked or photoshop enhanced. For example if you have lost so much blood your skin is turning green, you arent alive anymore, at the very least impossible outcome you arent upright staggering forward.

I supposed that those who support these actions must be enjoying them, appears not.

as for the photoshop argument, WHAT ????!!!

Most of the photos are authentic and strike quite a chord as they should with all human beings, it's sad.

But there are a few that are either faked or enhanced. If you have lost so much blood that your skin is darkening to a greenish colour there is no way you could be shambling forward or most likely even alive. There are a few others but for the most part authentic.

I did not understand what pics u're talking about, but that doesn't matter.

And you're not a criminal as far as i know :lol: but i hope you stop supporting criminals.

[skinn]

http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/files/genocide7.jpg

i thing i know the pic you're talking about, i saw that woman on TV, her white greenish face is caused by the destruction of the Tyr building, it is brewed stone. The destruction of that building caused dosens of civilian casualties.

[Yoadm]

Pebble wrote: So how many militants to missiles is that?

No idea, since every dead is immediately considered by the lebanese as "civilian", for PR purposes. What I can say, is that 1,500 Hisbullah targets have been destroyed (Hq's, bases, radar installations, rocket launchers).

[Redruin]

"I beleive the bulk of our Israeli posters including myself have made aware their sorrow and feeling of tragedy for the loss of Lebanese civilian life. It is indeed a tragedy."

Why then do your words not seem to correlate with the action the Israeli military has taken in Lebanon? If you were truly regretful at the deaths of innocents would you not bomb them in the first place? By dropping a bomb or missile in a populated environment knowing civilians are nearby, are you not knowingly bombing them? The few men of moral fiber who were truly sorry about civilian casualties signed the Pilots Letter. So far I have only seen Israelis here mourning the dead in the aftermath. Not a word criticizing the process which has led to these deaths. Do you not respect the Lebanese government, their people, and their sovereignity enough to work together with them to solve the current conflict? What are you trying to accomplish with a military conflict that both sides acknowledge can only end with a diplomatic solution? Why not try it sooner rather than later after all the dead are buried? Do you truly believe this course of action is justified by the capture of 2 soldiers?

[superskippy]

Quote: Why then do your words not seem to correlate with the action the Israeli military has taken in Lebanon? If you were truly regretful at the deaths of innocents would you not bomb them in the first place?

I look at it like this, were the Allies not regretful and saddened by the French, or Dutch, that they killed in large numbers in their bombing runs over France and the Netherlands to do damage to the German forces? Of course they were it doesnt mean they werent going to act against Germany.

Of course the situation is far less extreme here but the basic idea still stands. We regret Lebanese casualties and feel deep sorrow for them as all humans should, they are after all innocent people that have suffered because of this. We however cannot and will not stop our fight against Hezbollah and I fear until we have achieved what we have set out to do the Lebanese will suffer.

Quote: you not respect the Lebanese government, their people, and their sovereignity enough to work together with them to solve the current conflict? What are you trying to accomplish with a military conflict that both sides acknowledge can only end with a diplomatic solution? Why not try it sooner rather than later after all the dead are buried?

Because for one thing Lebanon had 6 years to secure the border since we withdrew. Not a single movement, not a single soldier, not a single outpost was ever set up along the border. Nothing to root out Hezbollah and do what was needed. Hezbollah now holds 25% of the Government seats, and the Government has at last made the move to stand behind Hezbollah.

Diplomacy in the Middle East only ever comes after both sides have fought to begin with, as well as this is no group we can deal with. Hezbollah made a suicidal attack, they have no hope of winning and will only bring destruction to Lebanon yet they do it anyways. We have to do as much damage to them as possible.

Quote: Do you truly believe this course of action is justified by the capture of 2 soldiers?

No not really, though the chances we have in Lebanon are still our only chance. The purpose has shifted to doing as much damage to Hezbollah as possible.

[Plato & Socrates]

Redruin wrote: "I beleive the bulk of our Israeli posters including myself have made aware their sorrow and feeling of tragedy for the loss of Lebanese civilian life. It is indeed a tragedy."

Why then do your words not seem to correlate with the action the Israeli military has taken in Lebanon? If you were truly regretful at the deaths of innocents would you not bomb them in the first place? By dropping a bomb or missile in a populated environment knowing civilians are nearby, are you not knowingly bombing them? The few men of moral fiber who were truly sorry about civilian casualties signed the Pilots Letter. So far I have only seen Israelis here mourning the dead in the aftermath. Not a word criticizing the process which has led to these deaths. Do you not respect the Lebanese government, their people, and their sovereignity enough to work together with them to solve the current conflict? What are you trying to accomplish with a military conflict that both sides acknowledge can only end with a diplomatic solution? Why not try it sooner rather than later after all the dead are buried? Do you truly believe this course of action is justified by the capture of 2 soldiers?

These concepts I am afraid are way beyond their moral scope.
The U.K foreign minister Mr Kim Howells after witnessing the state of Beirut firsthand said:
"I very much hope that the Americans understand what's happening to Lebanon. The destruction of the infrastructure, the death of so many children and so many people. These have not been surgical strikes.
If they're chasing Hezbollah, then go for Hezbollah. You don't go for the entire Lebanese nation."

The question must be posed, that if Israel was only targeting Hizbollah, why are all the foreign nationals who can leave, leaving?
Also the stories of the foreign national civilians caught up in this, accuse Israel of indiscriminate bombing.

The problem facing Israel this time, is if it was Ali or Abdul or little Shamir who were the victims of Israels bombing campaign. They would have got 10-20 seconds of airtime to talk about the bombing and death. But what Israeli P.R can not counter, it is that this time the voices crying and describing the carnage are white like me. These people are getting airtime into the minutes. Whats even more damaging to Israel is that many of these people were just holiday makers.

They are the ones describing the buildings which were bombed just next door to them. They are the ones describing the scene of there journey from there hold out stay, to their arrival at the port. It is their testimony's which are the most damaging to Israel, because literally to a last the man, woman and adolescent child. There version of events is completely contrary to the Israeli version of only targeting Hizbollah.

[Redruin]

"I look at it like this, were the Allies not regretful and saddened by the French, or Dutch, that they killed in large numbers in their bombing runs over France and the Netherlands to do damage to the German forces? Of course they were it doesnt mean they werent going to act against Germany.

Of course the situation is far less extreme here but the basic idea still stands. We regret Lebanese casualties and feel deep sorrow for them as all humans should, they are after all innocent people that have suffered because of this. We however cannot and will not stop our fight against Hezbollah and I fear until we have achieved what we have set out to do the Lebanese will suffer."

WW2 is hardly the same situation we are in now. The problem is a small group of armed militants embedded within a localized area of the Lebanese country. You are not justified in levelling the country to displace a couple thousand armed militants, and comparing the size of the militant war potential to the German army is hardly fair. You are still advocating the use of a sledgehammer to kill an army ant within a colony of normal ants. No one wants you to stop your fight against Hezbollah but you are using the wrong tools and choosing the wrong targets, therefore you will never succeed in what you are setting out to do and making the Lebanese people suffer pointlessly.

[programmusic]

Israel warned and allowed Lebanese civilians to leave. Why anyone would still be there is a mystery to me. Unless they were Hezbollah, considering Hezbollah fight dressed as civilians, I very much doubt the published Civilian casualty figures.

[Skywalker]

programmusic wrote: Israel warned and allowed Lebanese civilians to leave. Why anyone would still be there is a mystery to me. Unless they were Hezbollah, considering Hezbollah fight dressed as civilians, I very much doubt the published Civilian casualty figures.

if u were smart enough to do some research u would have found that those who didnt leave "marwahine" went to the UN in that region to take cover there but as the UN forces there decided if they'll let them in or not the time had ran out and the bombs came raining down on them... i guess those guys are hezballah troops also (the women and children i meant) and for those who didnt go to the UN were stuck in "marwahine" because the way out of the town were bombed!!!! so some of them stayed home and some of them went offroad (those who had the ability) to get out of "marwahine"!!! man... open ur eyes!!! only 8 hezballah troops till now were killed in action and not in bombing!! y 8??? cause when a member of hezballah dies, they do something we call here "bi shayo'o" so everybody knows he died in the name of protecting his country...

[Redruin]

"Israel warned and allowed Lebanese civilians to leave. Why anyone would still be there is a mystery to me. Unless they were Hezbollah, considering Hezbollah fight dressed as civilians, I very much doubt the published Civilian casualty figures."


Are we watching the same event? Israel opened its offensive by bombing vehicles, the roads themselves, the airport, the bridges, and even the ports, all with minimum warning. And a useless one at that. How long do you think it would require to evacuate? I would think 3 days is minimum with the infrastructure intact. Now just how would you suggest they leave? Even foreign nationals are having a hard time getting out of the country. You doubt the civilian casualty figures? Just how much do you think they are off by? Even at a 50% figure those casualties are still unacceptable, and those civilian casualties are only the tip of the iceberg concerning what people are upset about.

[henrilegrand]

[quote="programmusic"]Israel warned and allowed Lebanese civilians to leave. Why anyone would still be there is a mystery to me. Unless they were Hezbollah, considering Hezbollah fight dressed as civilians, I very much doubt the published Civilian casualty figures.[/quote]

*****

>>Why anyone would still be there is a mystery to me"

I agree. Why are the Ameriucans still there?

[mai]

Right? :-|

Then tell me why this has to happen? http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/

[Duchifas]

Redruin wrote: Do you truly believe this course of action is justified by the capture of 2 soldiers?

Can everyone stop pretending as if this is taking place just because of the two soldiers? Hizbollah first launched rockets at Israeli towns.

On July 12, The New York Times wrote:
Today’s fighting erupted around 9 a.m. when Hezbollah attacked several northwestern Israeli towns with rocket fire, injuring several civilians, the Israeli military said. Israeli civilians rushed into their bomb shelters and many remained there throughout the day.

But that attack was a diversion for the main operation, several miles to the east, where Hezbollah militants fired anti-tank missiles on two armored vehicles patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence, the military said.

Of the seven soldiers in the two vehicles, three were killed, two were wounded and two were abducted, the military said.

Israel then responded with artillery fire, airstrikes and a naval bombardment that targeted some 40 sites in southern Lebanon. Most were believed to be Hezbollah strongholds, but roads and bridges were also hit in an attempt to keep Hezbollah from moving the captured soldiers further to the north, according to the military.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/12/world/middleeast/12cnd-mideast.html?ex=1153972800&en=bbbdaedfa89c678a&ei=5070