Political Crossfire Forums

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

This may sound strange and sick in many ways, but I firmly believe the escalation in the region is a positive move. There are a variety of reasons for my assertion:

1- the conflict in the region has a pattern like this:
lots of violence --- fairly peaceful time with low intensity fighting --- lots of violence --- fairly peaceful time with low intensity fighting ....!
With the escalation, many people will die and while the loss of life is horrible, if it brings a longer peace period after the fighting is over, it seems to me that is a rather positive thing to look forward to.

2- Both sides will do all their dirty work now and exhaust themselves to the point where they will have no desire for further fights for at least a while. This could potentially lead to a new round of peace talks, which might hopefully one day produce peace.

Hmmmm ... but then again, as we all know it could all go horribly wrong. :-|

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3395 Location: Haifa

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: With the escalation, many people will die and while the loss of life is horrible, if it brings a longer peace period after the fighting is over, it seems to me that is a rather positive thing to look forward to.
With this I agree. I prefer a war now than when I have kids of my own.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1745 Location: London

Secondary Oak wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: With the escalation, many people will die and while the loss of life is horrible, if it brings a longer peace period after the fighting is over, it seems to me that is a rather positive thing to look forward to.
With this I agree. I prefer a war now than when I have kids of my own.

Short of war crime preportion deaths, Israels hands are tied. They will be eternally fighting battles in the order you have described. Israels options are limited and they know it. Both sides talk of wanting a comprehensive peace, but looking at both sides those words are just hollow gestures.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Secondary Oak wrote: With this I agree. I prefer a war now than when I have kids of my own.

I very much doubt that there will be peace. Rather there will be a period of "fairly peaceful time with low intensity fighting" because war in and by itself won't solve anything in the long run.

Plato & Socrates wrote: Short of war crime preportion deaths, Israels hands are tied. They will be eternally fighting battles in the order you have described. Israels options are limited and they know it. Both sides talk of wanting a comprehensive peace, but looking at both sides those words are just hollow gestures.

That's because "peace" is rather a confusing word in the region:

- For Israelis, "peace" might mean getting out of Gaza and some parts of the West Bank.
- For some Palestinians, "peace" might mean no Israel at all!
- For other Palestinians, "peace" might mean the 1967 borders.

There is no definition that could be agreed upon and lack of a definition will hurt any "peace" negotiations because essentially there is nothing there to be agreed upon.

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3395 Location: Haifa

My, aren't you two pessimistic...

I, unlike you, have little doubt there will be peace in my lifetime.

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1635 Location: UK / Hungary

Secondary Oak wrote: My, aren't you two pessimistic...

I, unlike you, have little doubt there will be peace in my lifetime.

Wishfull thinking!! Peace I feel will only come when either Israel or Palestine have been completley wiped out!

There will always be Palestinians for whom nothing less than the total destruction of Israel will do.

TacticalSniper · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject:

I believe Israel should do with Palestinians what Americans do in Iraq. It is hard, but Americans got some really impressive achievements there.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1745 Location: London

Secondary Oak wrote: My, aren't you two pessimistic...

I, unlike you, have little doubt there will be peace in my lifetime.

Theres no political will. Neither side populations will vote for a candidate prepared to be contortionists required to broker peace. Anyone campaigning on a peace ticket is automatically seen as weak and not strong enough.
Both sides political right will tear into them for a concession to far. I just cant see it. neither side has suffered enough, for both sides to say enough is enough.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

TacticalSniper wrote: I believe Israel should do with Palestinians what Americans do in Iraq. It is hard, but Americans got some really impressive achievements there.

er ... impressive in what way exactly? :-|

drobforever · Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 141

Easiest way to achieve peace:

US cut a piece of land and sell that to Israelis. Israelis sell Israel to UN, then UN sell it to Arab league.

TacticalSniper · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject:

By "impressive" I mean that they've managed, even though no one believed it, to make gov't there, run elections... I'm not saying everything US did is perfect - definitely not. But I think that in the long run Iraq will be a better country.

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3395 Location: Haifa

Plato & Socrates wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: My, aren't you two pessimistic...

I, unlike you, have little doubt there will be peace in my lifetime.

Theres no political will. Neither side populations will vote for a candidate prepared to be contortionists required to broker peace. Anyone campaigning on a peace ticket is automatically seen as weak and not strong enough.
Honestly, it's obvious you have little idea about Israeli politics. Following every period of relative calm, the left was elected: look at 89-92 and 96-99. In addition, all the Israeli governments recently, both from the left and from the right, have been elected on the premise of security and peace. It's unbelievable you say "campaigning on a peace ticket is automatically seen as weak" while the entire TV propaganda from all major parties was choke-full on playing the "peace ticket".

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1745 Location: London

Secondary Oak wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: My, aren't you two pessimistic...

I, unlike you, have little doubt there will be peace in my lifetime.

Theres no political will. Neither side populations will vote for a candidate prepared to be contortionists required to broker peace. Anyone campaigning on a peace ticket is automatically seen as weak and not strong enough.
Honestly, it's obvious you have little idea about Israeli politics. Following every period of relative calm, the left was elected: look at 89-92 and 96-99. In addition, all the Israeli governments recently, both from the left and from the right, have been elected on the premise of security and peace. It's unbelievable you say "campaigning on a peace ticket is automatically seen as weak" while the entire TV propaganda from all major parties was choke-full on playing the "peace ticket".

Are you seeing what you want to see or is that the reality? IMO the left is shattered in Israel, the last left wing candidate of note I can remember of the top off my head was mitznah or something, I know he was based around Haifa. That's says it all about the left at the moment. Plus with the large influx or Russian Jews they tend to vote right-wing to the best of my knowledge.

The name of the left's candidate to challenge Olmert had has much coverage here, has to be forgettable. Also he was portrayed in the UK at least as a socialist, union kind of fellow and that his economics was'nt progressive enough. For many his peace offering was seen by many to be too bold.
To be honest the Jewish Chronicle in the UK does'nt really go into Israeli politics greatly. They tend to focus on the achievements and stories involving the British diaspora instead of focusing on Israel.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Plato & Socrates wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: Secondary Oak wrote: My, aren't you two pessimistic...

I, unlike you, have little doubt there will be peace in my lifetime.

Theres no political will. Neither side populations will vote for a candidate prepared to be contortionists required to broker peace. Anyone campaigning on a peace ticket is automatically seen as weak and not strong enough.
Honestly, it's obvious you have little idea about Israeli politics. Following every period of relative calm, the left was elected: look at 89-92 and 96-99. In addition, all the Israeli governments recently, both from the left and from the right, have been elected on the premise of security and peace. It's unbelievable you say "campaigning on a peace ticket is automatically seen as weak" while the entire TV propaganda from all major parties was choke-full on playing the "peace ticket".

Are you seeing what you want to see or is that the reality? IMO the left is shattered in Israel, the last left wing candidate of note I can remember of the top off my head was mitznah or something, I know he was based around Haifa. That's says it all about the left at the moment. Plus with the large influx or Russian Jews they tend to vote right-wing to the best of my knowledge.

Mitznah ran against Sharon on the leftist platform of withdrawing from Gaza. Sharon staunchly opposed the withdrawal prior to and during the election.

After winning the election on a right-wing platform, Sharon proceeded to dupe the electorate and adopted Mitznah's leftist program. (The fruits of which we are now seeing).

Quote: The name of the left's candidate to challenge Olmert had has much coverage here, has to be forgettable.

Olmert did not need much of a left candidate to challenge him, as Olmert was quite left himself. I mean, ahem, centrist.

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3395 Location: Haifa

Plato & Socrates wrote: IMO the left is shattered in Israel...
That's true. But as I said the right also "plays the peace card". Hell, Sharon's campaign slogan was "only Sharon will bring peace".

In addition the left may have suffered greatly but many would consider Israel's current government to be closer to the left than the right.

To make it short: I have no doubt that if an opportunity for some sort of peace arrives, the Israeli public opinion will pressure the government to take it. I don't think you understand the desire within the public for that. But until such an opportunity arrives...

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

There will be a peace accord.

Wyatt Earp · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 358

drobforever wrote: Easiest way to achieve peace:

US cut a piece of land and sell that to Israelis. Israelis sell Israel to UN, then UN sell it to Arab league.

I like this one: the USA just give Israelis the state of Florida USA, Move them all there and just make the land of Israeli Neutral, no one lives there.

TacticalSniper · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject:

Actually, left is shattered now because people see there's no way to make peace, caused whatever we do we get killed.

However, before the Gaza disengagement, absolute most of Israelis supported the disengagement. Now even some of the hardcore leftists say it was a mistake because we got from it only more killing.

lucidnightmare · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject:

I hope people will finally realize that you cannot have peaceful coexistence with Hamas,Hezbolla or any other radical Islamic organization.They are either attacking you or planning to attack you.They are hate groups,neo nazis that pray to Allah rather than Odin.

Israel pulls out of areas as part of a plan for peace and these scumbags use those very areas to launch rockets.Let the world take note,you cannot give these people an inch.

lucidnightmare · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject:

Wyatt Earp wrote: drobforever wrote: Easiest way to achieve peace:

US cut a piece of land and sell that to Israelis. Israelis sell Israel to UN, then UN sell it to Arab league.

I like this one: the USA just give Israelis the state of Florida USA, Move them all there and just make the land of Israeli Neutral, no one lives there.

Wouldn't bother me any.No Jew has ever done anything to me or my country.

But Israel is their land,and they want to stay there.I personally can't imagine living in that part of the world,surrounded by people who hate me.But I'm not Jewish.