Political Crossfire Forums

[SpartanPhalanx]

thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: what is the difference between a police officer shooting into a crowd with an automatic weapon to kill an armed criminal and a soldier firing into a crowd to with an automatic weapon to kill an enemy soldier?


To make your analogy proper to what is happening in Lebanon, you must add the following: the armed criminal has been there for years among the crowd, and the crowd was all those years either protecting him or complicit that he was hiding among them, or apathetic to do anything to either denounce him or have him arrested. In such a scenario, the crowd by its action/inaction has risked itself to be a target.

Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead. Your arguments to the contrary only expose the hollowness of your position.

[superskippy]

Quote: Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

We dont have to abide by the ICJ or World Court and few nations ever have and if my memory serves no nation has for an important ruling beyond trade disputes.

Quote: Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982.

If you mean rooting out some 17,000 PLO troops in South Lebanon with their own micro state who was attacking us nearly every day then yes it was an adventure.

If you mean crushing the PLO as a military force forever then yes it was carnage.

Quote: 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead.

I fail to see what 4 international bombings against Israeli and Jewish targets outside Lebanon has to do with social responsability. Or is it more of to each his own kind of thing?

[SpartanPhalanx]

superskippy wrote: Quote: Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

We dont have to abide by the ICJ or World Court and few nations ever have and if my memory serves no nation has for an important ruling beyond trade disputes.

Quote: Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982.

If you mean rooting out some 17,000 PLO troops in South Lebanon with their own micro state who was attacking us nearly every day then yes it was an adventure.

If you mean crushing the PLO as a military force forever then yes it was carnage.

Quote: 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead.

I fail to see what 4 international bombings against Israeli and Jewish targets outside Lebanon has to do with social responsability. Or is it more of to each his own kind of thing?

Well Skippy, I know you think Israel has every right to act outside the law, but time will tell exactly what justice will be meted out on Israeli criminals. You are not outside the law, regardless of the legal shelter your benefactor, the US says.

Israel murdered thousands in Lebanon Skippy, regardless of how you want to spin it. Fact is that is why Hezbollah exists. They are freedom fighters from Zionist brutality, plain and simple.

Incidentally, your government cannot even be trusted to keep its word. First, the aerial cease fire means just that , a cease-fire which Israel refused to honour. Second, Israel stated all it wants is to push Hezbollah back....now we hear troops have landed in Baalbek, northeast Lebanon.

If your government, along with the U.S are trying to draw in Syria and Iran, you're doing all the right things Skip....

And we will ALL pay the price.

:clap:

[Duchifas]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: Well Skippy, I know you think Israel has every right to act outside the law, but time will tell exactly what justice will be meted out on Israeli criminals. You are not outside the law, regardless of the legal shelter your benefactor, the US says.

Don't stay up late waiting for it, ok?

Quote: Israel murdered thousands in Lebanon Skippy, regardless of how you want to spin it. Fact is that is why Hezbollah exists. They are freedom fighters from Zionist brutality, plain and simple.

Freedom fighters? Who murdered 85 people in Buenos Aires? Scum is what they are, not freedom fighters.

Quote: Incidentally, your government cannot even be trusted to keep its word. First, the aerial cease fire means just that , a cease-fire which Israel refused to honour. Second, Israel stated all it wants is to push Hezbollah back....now we hear troops have landed in Baalbek, northeast Lebanon.

If your government, along with the U.S are trying to draw in Syria and Iran, you're doing all the right things Skip....

And we will ALL pay the price.

:clap:

Well, send me the bill, I will pay your share, Spartan.

[battleax86]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: Israel murdered thousands in Lebanon Skippy, regardless of how you want to spin it. Fact is that is why Hezbollah exists. They are freedom fighters from Zionist brutality, plain and simple.
Freedom fighters from what? There were no Israelis in Lebanon for six years before the terrorists launched this war. Hezbollah, by your reasoning, has had no reason to exist since 2000, when the UN verified that Israel had completely withdrawn from all Lebanese territory. Yet, during this time, they launched hundreds of rockets against northern Israeli cities and military outposts, not to mention the 85 people they murdered in South America before that. They are an illegitimate terrorist organization, plain and simple.

[superskippy]

Quote: Well Skippy, I know you think Israel has every right to act outside the law, but time will tell exactly what justice will be meted out on Israeli criminals. You are not outside the law, regardless of the legal shelter your benefactor, the US says.

While in many cases and in my personal opinion the geneva convention and international law are searously out of sync with reality and out of date, I do not think we have the right to act outside of the moral frameworks of the geneva convention and international law. Which is dont target civilians on purpose, dont kill innocents on purpose, dont kill POW's, dont use biological or chemical weapons, etc.

Quote: Israel murdered thousands in Lebanon Skippy, regardless of how you want to spin it. Fact is that is why Hezbollah exists. They are freedom fighters from Zionist brutality, plain and simple.

You can call the civilians who died during the war murder if you want.

But Hezbollah... freedom fighters? :lol: Perhaps they may have been viewed as such 6 years ago and even that was a bit of a stretch. But we have been attacked for no reason for the past 6 years incessantly, they arent freedom fighters they are terrorists and aggressive militants and thugs.

As "freedom fighters" do you approve of their AMIA bombing which killed 85 people from the Jewish community center as well as many Argentinians, as well as the Embassy bombing in Buenos Aires in which 30 people were killed. Hezbollah captain Imad Fayez Mugniyah has been indicted by Argentina and an arrest warrent is out on him for his role in the attacks as well as several other Hezbollah terrorists.

The bombing of our embassy in London which wounded 20 innocent people as well as the bombing of a Jewish building in London which wounded another 8 people.

The bombing of a Jewish chartered Panamanian plane which killed 21 people.

I could go on but I think that is enough for now.

Quote: Incidentally, your government cannot even be trusted to keep its word. First, the aerial cease fire means just that , a cease-fire which Israel refused to honour. Second, Israel stated all it wants is to push Hezbollah back....now we hear troops have landed in Baalbek, northeast Lebanon.

We dont have to keep a ceasefire we offered. The IAF voluntarily halted air operations only for a limited amount of time to investigate Qana. After that and when operations required continued support they returned to action.

Also we never said we wanted to push Hezbollah back. We said we wanted security and to deal damage to Hezbollah as well as create a border zone. My guess is the insertion of those Paratroops was to take out deeper targets that couldnt be hit by air raid.

Quote: If your government, along with the U.S are trying to draw in Syria and Iran, you're doing all the right things Skip....

We arent asking for the US to get involved, and if Iran and Syria go to war thats their own affair.

[thatisnotme]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: what is the difference between a police officer shooting into a crowd with an automatic weapon to kill an armed criminal and a soldier firing into a crowd to with an automatic weapon to kill an enemy soldier?


To make your analogy proper to what is happening in Lebanon, you must add the following: the armed criminal has been there for years among the crowd, and the crowd was all those years either protecting him or complicit that he was hiding among them, or apathetic to do anything to either denounce him or have him arrested. In such a scenario, the crowd by its action/inaction has risked itself to be a target.

Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead. Your arguments to the contrary only expose the hollowness of your position.

In Canada, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization, and by the laws of this country, any aid to Hezbollah is a criminal offense. Its aim is the destruction of Israel, a country that was recognized by the UN. Any entity that aims to destroy a state is a terrorist organization, there no other word for it.

[Redruin]

Time to get around to replying to your arguments Battleaxe. I'll get around to playing with the quotation system soon, in the meantime, you'll just have to live with this.



"The law condones accidental killing in the act of self-defense. If a man is shooting at you from behind a human shield and you accidentally kill the human shield while returning fire, the man shooting at you is responsible for the human shield's death. Likewise, if Israel kills a terrorist, one who is responsible for the rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, in the middle of a crowd that he has put himself in to avoid Israeli attacks, then he is responsible for every single civilian who dies in the attack on him. "



Ah but in our case it is NO LONGER SELF-DEFENSE when you are in an airplane or helicoptor blasting away at militants hiding in a crowd, or similarly shelling them with your batteries from miles away. Your life is not in danger, your case for self defense is inapplicable.




"Creating moral equivalency between a sovereign state and a terrorist organization...that's your first problem."



And that is your first problem sir. Applying different moral standards to two entities is immoral. How can you ever judge anything fairly with two different standards?




"To begin with, the Israeli government is not "conspiring" with the IDF. The IDF is a facet of the Israeli government in the same way that any military belongs to their government. Secondly, they are intentionally dropping ordnance on terrorist targets that contribute to either the detention of their kidnapped soldiers or contribute to the rocket fire that is unabashedly targeting Israeli civilians. Whether or not they are in "densely populated civilian areas" is irrelevant. Israel must bomb wherever necessary to protect their own civilians. "


When was the last time the Israeli military was disciplined for irresponsiblely killing civilians? Never? Thats a good case for a conspiracy. If the IDF is only dropping ordnance on terrorist targets that contribute to either the detention of their kidnapped soldiers or contribute to the rocket fire that is unabashedly targeting Israeli civilians than the world would have no problems with the way the Israeli campaign is progressing: Fleeing civilian vehicles, civilian infrastructure, UN observation posts, civilian shelters, red cross ambulances, Lebanese military vehicles, civilian housing - just what doesn't fall into your category of terrorist targets? Like I said before, if Israel must bomb whatever is necessary to protect their own citizens there is nothing stopping you from nuking the entire Middle East right? Is there anything stopping you from doing that? That's right, you know damn well there is.




"No, the deaths are on the terrorist that I am targeting for hiding in a densely populated area. "


Nope, they are on you for dropping the bomb that kills the civilians. This is not an act of self defense.




"If an armed criminal is firing at police while hiding in a crowd, the police will order the crowd to get down and will open fire on criminal in order to protect their own lives. True, the police do not fire indiscriminately...but then, neither does Israel. They are using precision-guided munitions to strike specific targets instead of carpet-bombing the entire area (like we did in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, and Gulf War I). They are dropping leaflets warning the "crowd" to get down before they open fire. Yet, the time comes when they must fire in order to protect their own. If there are still civilians left, that is unfortunate, but not enough to stop the protection of Israelis."



The point is the police would NOT fire if there were no clear shot. Israel DOES fire if there is no clear shot. Precision guided or not the pictures coming from southern Lebanese villages look flattened. As I said before, leaflets are a useless propaganda ploy when the populace cannot evacuate because of your continued air strikes.





"Yeah, and if they didn't drop any leaflets, you'd be blaming them for not giving the civilians any warning to leave...they're damned no matter what they do. Rolling Eyes "



If you do not provide someone the time or means to react to your warnings then by common sense (something you obviously lack) the warning is useless.



"When have they ever bombed an area within minutes after dropping the leaflets? ABC News went to one town where leaflets had been dropped and filmed the residents tearing them up. If ABC News had time to hear about the leaflet drop, send a team to do a story on it, film it, and leave without any bombs having yet fallen, these residents had plenty of time to leave. They just chose not to. If they die because Hezbollah uses them as human shields, they will share the blame with Hezbollah for their own deaths. "


When have the Israelis halted their air, sea, or ground bombardment after dropping a leaflet? Never? How do you get out when the roads are still being shelled? The Israelis know not to hit any American news teams and take particular care with them. The war would be over posthaste in that eventuality.



"Too much logic, eh?"


Au contraire, not enough.

[thatisnotme]

>>What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?

What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities -- every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians -- and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?


To hear the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe. With a few significant exceptions (the leadership of the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada and a very few others), the world -- governments, the media, U.N. bureaucrats -- has completely lost its moral bearings.<<

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006 072701725.html?sub=AR

[superskippy]

Quote: Ah but in our case it is NO LONGER SELF-DEFENSE when you are in an airplane or helicoptor blasting away at militants hiding in a crowd, or similarly shelling them with your batteries from miles away. Your life is not in danger, your case for self defense is inapplicable.

When ever your country is attacked you immediatly gain a mandate to attack and defeat your enemies.

Even if it wasnt specefically written into law that you could attack the person who attacked you (Which it actually just about is or every single war in history would stop at the border with the attacker losing nothing) it is a very clear law of nature. If you attack and fail you must prepare to reap the whirlwind.

Quote: And that is your first problem sir. Applying different moral standards to two entities is immoral. How can you ever judge anything fairly with two different standards?

He's poking fun at you. First your holding a terrorist group to a moral standard and then expecting the soveriegn states to hold to an equal level of morals? Just think about it.

Quote: When was the last time the Israeli military was disciplined for irresponsiblely killing civilians? Never?

A few months ago an IDF soldier was sentanced to 11 years in prison. Why?

Quote: Nope, they are on you for dropping the bomb that kills the civilians. This is not an act of self defense.

It's an act during war and during war to accomplish the goal of victory civilians will almost always perish in the fire. Call it what you will if I may be so blunt.

Quote: The point is the police would NOT fire if there were no clear shot. Israel DOES fire if there is no clear shot. Precision guided or not the pictures coming from southern Lebanese villages look flattened. As I said before, leaflets are a useless propaganda ploy when the populace cannot evacuate because of your continued air strikes.

Because law enforcement is very different from military operations. The analogy was just to display that we attempt to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. It was a clear connection between police and soldier which would be inaccurate.

Quote: When have the Israelis halted their air, sea, or ground bombardment after dropping a leaflet? Never? How do you get out when the roads are still being shelled? The Israelis know not to hit any American news teams and take particular care with them. The war would be over posthaste in that eventuality.

We havent ceased operations this is true, but we dont bomb a city every hour of the day. And we dont bomb the entire city, the civilians easily have several hours a day without bombardment in which they could get to safer areas. Of course difficulty still exists but remaining in a area you know we will be hitting is much worse.

[battleax86]

Redruin wrote: Time to get around to replying to your arguments Battleaxe.
Excellent. I've been waiting. :twisted:

Redruin wrote: I'll get around to playing with the quotation system soon, in the meantime, you'll just have to live with this.
There's nothing to play with. Just follow the template I showed you on the last page... 8:)

Redruin wrote: Ah but in our case it is NO LONGER SELF-DEFENSE when you are in an airplane or helicoptor blasting away at militants hiding in a crowd, or similarly shelling them with your batteries from miles away. Your life is not in danger, your case for self defense is inapplicable.
If you had been paying attention, you would see that we are analogizing personal self-defense with the defense of a nation, not speaking in terms of the specific pilot who happens to be dropping the bombs. The "person" engaged in self-defense is Israel. The gunmen are Hezbollah. They are continually shooting at the Israeli nation and the nation, by means of its military, is shooting back in self-defense.

Even if I were to accept your intellectually dishonest assertion that self-defense doesn't apply here because the pilot himself is not in personal danger, the pilot is still acting in the defense of others, namely his countrymen.

Redruin wrote: And that is your first problem sir. Applying different moral standards to two entities is immoral. How can you ever judge anything fairly with two different standards?
We're not talking about applying different standards of morality. You said that you saw no difference between Israel and Hezbollah. You were attempting to put Hezbollah on the same moral highground as Israel, trying to say that each was as legitimate in this conflict as the other. Therefore, you were creating a moral equivalency between the sovereign state of Israel and an illegitimate, terrorist militia. You are wrong.

Redruin wrote: When was the last time the Israeli military was disciplined for irresponsiblely killing civilians? Never?
No, last year an army sergeant was sentenced to 20 months in prison for irresponsibly shooting an Arab in the Gaza Strip. He's lucky the man didn't die or his penalty probably would have been life in prison.

Redruin wrote: Thats a good case for a conspiracy.
I think you're missing the point. How do you conspire with yourself? The IDF is part of the Israeli government. Therefore, the Israeli government is "conspiring" with the IDF. They ARE the IDF (and a host of other agencies).

Redruin wrote: If the IDF is only dropping ordnance on terrorist targets that contribute to either the detention of their kidnapped soldiers or contribute to the rocket fire that is unabashedly targeting Israeli civilians than the world would have no problems with the way the Israeli campaign is progressing: Fleeing civilian vehicles, civilian infrastructure, UN observation posts, civilian shelters, red cross ambulances, Lebanese military vehicles, civilian housing - just what doesn't fall into your category of terrorist targets?
As I've said before, Israel does not intentionally target any of those things unless that specific target is being used by Hezbollah. Now, oftentimes Hezbollah will use civilians and other non-combatant things as human shields, which, unfortunately, puts them in harm's way.

Redruin wrote: Like I said before, if Israel must bomb whatever is necessary to protect their own citizens there is nothing stopping you from nuking the entire Middle East right? Is there anything stopping you from doing that? That's right, you know damn well there is.
Yeah, the fact that most of the countries in the Middle East haven't yet done anything that warrants completely destroying them.

Redruin wrote: Nope, they are on you for dropping the bomb that kills the civilians. This is not an act of self defense.
Yes, it is a national act of self-defense against the militants who are hiding among them. Tell me, just out of curiosity, do you consider our pilots from World War II to be murderers or war criminals?

Redruin wrote: The point is the police would NOT fire if there were no clear shot.
They would if they felt it was necessary to save their lives.

Redruin wrote: Israel DOES fire if there is no clear shot.
If a military categorically refused to fire due to the lack of a clear shot, then they would have absolutely no hope of winning any war that they fight, especially against an enemy whose tactics are specifically designed to put innocents in the way of a "clear shot."

Redruin wrote: Precision guided or not the pictures coming from southern Lebanese villages look flattened.
Have you heard of close-up? The next time you see a picture of the destruction in a Lebanese town, count how many buildings you see flattened...

Redruin wrote: As I said before, leaflets are a useless propaganda ploy when the populace cannot evacuate because of your continued air strikes.
My continued airstrikes? I'm not Israeli, but I guess that's beside the point. Yes, the populace does have the ability to evacuate. Thousands upon thousands have already done so.

Redruin wrote: If you do not provide someone the time or means to react to your warnings then by common sense (something you obviously lack) the warning is useless.
I lack common sense? You're the one trying to tell me that the Israelis should not fire if they don't have a clear shot against an enemy whose tactics are designed specifically to prevent clear shots, but I digress...

Show me where Israel has dropped leaflets and not given the residents of that town time to escape. Show me one example of this.

Redruin wrote: When have the Israelis halted their air, sea, or ground bombardment after dropping a leaflet? Never?
So because they drop a leaflet on one town, they have to stop their operations all over Lebanon?

Redruin wrote: How do you get out when the roads are still being shelled?
Same way these people got out.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14067218

Redruin wrote: The Israelis know not to hit any American news teams and take particular care with them. The war would be over posthaste in that eventuality.
The Israelis didn't know that any American news teams were coming. They were brought in by Hezbollah. The reason the Israelis weren't bombing was to give residents time to heed the warnings...warnings that most residents eagerly tore up for the cameras.

Redruin wrote: Au contraire, not enough.
Hmm...that might be because I set aside some to donate to your deficient posts.

[SpartanPhalanx]

thatisnotme wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: what is the difference between a police officer shooting into a crowd with an automatic weapon to kill an armed criminal and a soldier firing into a crowd to with an automatic weapon to kill an enemy soldier?


To make your analogy proper to what is happening in Lebanon, you must add the following: the armed criminal has been there for years among the crowd, and the crowd was all those years either protecting him or complicit that he was hiding among them, or apathetic to do anything to either denounce him or have him arrested. In such a scenario, the crowd by its action/inaction has risked itself to be a target.

Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead. Your arguments to the contrary only expose the hollowness of your position.

In Canada, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization, and by the laws of this country, any aid to Hezbollah is a criminal offense. Its aim is the destruction of Israel, a country that was recognized by the UN. Any entity that aims to destroy a state is a terrorist organization, there no other word for it.

Forget Hezbollah, my above posts points to ISRAEL. Israel administered terror, death and destruction on an unarmed population in 1982 and is doing that very same thing today. Regardless of U.S government opinion, Israelis and Americans do not have the monopoly over who they choose to label terrorists. All they have to do is look in their collective mirror and they will see the terror THEY inflict and have inflicted is far greater than anything delivered by Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad combined.

You're talking crap now....

[programmusic]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: what is the difference between a police officer shooting into a crowd with an automatic weapon to kill an armed criminal and a soldier firing into a crowd to with an automatic weapon to kill an enemy soldier?


To make your analogy proper to what is happening in Lebanon, you must add the following: the armed criminal has been there for years among the crowd, and the crowd was all those years either protecting him or complicit that he was hiding among them, or apathetic to do anything to either denounce him or have him arrested. In such a scenario, the crowd by its action/inaction has risked itself to be a target.

Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead. Your arguments to the contrary only expose the hollowness of your position.

In Canada, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization, and by the laws of this country, any aid to Hezbollah is a criminal offense. Its aim is the destruction of Israel, a country that was recognized by the UN. Any entity that aims to destroy a state is a terrorist organization, there no other word for it.

Forget Hezbollah, my above posts points to ISRAEL. Israel administered terror, death and destruction on an unarmed population in 1982 and is doing that very same thing today. Regardless of U.S government opinion, Israelis and Americans do not have the monopoly over who they choose to label terrorists. All they have to do is look in their collective mirror and they will see the terror THEY inflict and have inflicted is far greater than anything delivered by Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad combined.

Yknow, after the PLO was atacking Israel from there

You're talking crap now.... :roll:

I guess Israel should have just let themselves be attacked and pushed into the sea

[thatisnotme]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: what is the difference between a police officer shooting into a crowd with an automatic weapon to kill an armed criminal and a soldier firing into a crowd to with an automatic weapon to kill an enemy soldier?


To make your analogy proper to what is happening in Lebanon, you must add the following: the armed criminal has been there for years among the crowd, and the crowd was all those years either protecting him or complicit that he was hiding among them, or apathetic to do anything to either denounce him or have him arrested. In such a scenario, the crowd by its action/inaction has risked itself to be a target.

Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead. Your arguments to the contrary only expose the hollowness of your position.

In Canada, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization, and by the laws of this country, any aid to Hezbollah is a criminal offense. Its aim is the destruction of Israel, a country that was recognized by the UN. Any entity that aims to destroy a state is a terrorist organization, there no other word for it.

Forget Hezbollah, my above posts points to ISRAEL. Israel administered terror, death and destruction on an unarmed population in 1982 and is doing that very same thing today. Regardless of U.S government opinion, Israelis and Americans do not have the monopoly over who they choose to label terrorists. All they have to do is look in their collective mirror and they will see the terror THEY inflict and have inflicted is far greater than anything delivered by Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad combined.

You're talking crap now....

The violence stems from the fact that the Arabs don't accept the existence of the state of Israel. Had the Arabs accept UN resolution 181 in 1947, which called for two states - one for the Jews who accepted it; and one for the Arabs, who still reject it -- all this violence would not be happening. The Arabs are totally responsible for all the carnage that has taken place since 1947.

[Redruin]

"If you had been paying attention, you would see that we are analogizing personal self-defense with the defense of a nation, not speaking in terms of the specific pilot who happens to be dropping the bombs. The "person" engaged in self-defense is Israel. The gunmen are Hezbollah. They are continually shooting at the Israeli nation and the nation, by means of its military, is shooting back in self-defense. "


You concede then that the Israeli pilots and artillerymen are not acting in personal self defense? Good. Personal self defense and national self defense are based on the same principles, therefore an analogy comparing the two interchangeably is quite acceptable. Yet, with you, and most of the pro-Israeli contigent, you have 2 moral standards to judge the world with, one for yourselves, and one for everyone else. Tell me who in their right mind would classify the Israeli military action in Lebanon as self defense? If you find 1 Lebanese citizen who would classify this action as so I would be shocked, and I would ask you how
much you paid him lol.



"Even if I were to accept your intellectually dishonest assertion that self-defense doesn't apply here because the pilot himself is not in personal danger, the pilot is still acting in the defense of others, namely his countrymen. "


Accepting your morally bankrupt position, the concept of self defense does allow for acting in defense of others, but it does not excuse the killing of innocent bystanders.



"We're not talking about applying different standards of morality. You said that you saw no difference between Israel and Hezbollah. You were attempting to put Hezbollah on the same moral highground as Israel, trying to say that each was as legitimate in this conflict as the other. Therefore, you were creating a moral equivalency between the sovereign state of Israel and an illegitimate, terrorist militia. You are wrong."


If you paid attention, you will see we were discussing the morality of both parties, specifically in regard to the targetting of civilians. I stated that I saw no difference between the Israeli and Hezbollah's aerial campaigns; one side drops bombs on civilian areas and the other blind fires into Israel.



"No, last year an army sergeant was sentenced to 20 months in prison for irresponsibly shooting an Arab in the Gaza Strip. He's lucky the man didn't die or his penalty probably would have been life in prison. "


That is good, I am tired of hearing the IDF is "investigating" cllateral damage disasters on the news. The party responsible for the UN deaths should get a harsh sentence, that was inexcusable.



"I think you're missing the point. How do you conspire with yourself? The IDF is part of the Israeli government. Therefore, the Israeli government is "conspiring" with the IDF. They ARE the IDF (and a host of other agencies)."


Israel has a history of ignoring UN resolutions, Geneva Conventions, and racking up high levels of collateral damage in all their conflicts. Perhaps conspire is a poor choice, but I was assuming there is some portion, or branch, of the Israeli government which objects to such practices.



"As I've said before, Israel does not intentionally target any of those things unless that specific target is being used by Hezbollah. Now, oftentimes Hezbollah will use civilians and other non-combatant things as human shields, which, unfortunately, puts them in harm's way. "



Beirut airport, the ports, bridges, roads, utilities, vehicles, and communication towers were all intentionally targetted. Of course, as part of the pro-Israeli contigent, I'm sure you will argue they were being used by Hezbollah and all were essential elements of their infrastructure. If Israel could have bombed the very air Hezbollah breathes I'm sure they would have done that already.



"Yeah, the fact that most of the countries in the Middle East haven't yet done anything that warrants completely destroying them. "


Yet, nice qualifier. I will be quite interested to see Israel's solution to the Iran nuclear issue.



"Yes, it is a national act of self-defense against the militants who are hiding among them. Tell me, just out of curiosity, do you consider our pilots from World War II to be murderers or war criminals? "

It is not an act of national self defense, it is an act of agression. Self defense applies only to bombing the armed militants. What we see now is an act of aggression as bombs hit things and people where no militants are present. WW2 again, yet another nutjob who believes the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict can somehow be equated to WW2. When is rooting out terrorists is equal to a World War? You are just after 2-3k Hezbollah. You have a 500k man army, air force, and navy. You've already dropped 10 shells or bombs on Lebanon for every single Hezbollah that exists. This is not a World War. A comparison to WW2 is not justifiable.



"If a military categorically refused to fire due to the lack of a clear shot, then they would have absolutely no hope of winning any war that they fight, especially against an enemy whose tactics are specifically designed to put innocents in the way of a "clear shot." "

You neglect the other options at the Israeli army's disposal. A much clearer shot from the ground, up close and personal, exists. Also, contrary to what you say, it is not as if Hezbollah drags civilians in front of them as they move about as human shields, they merely move about in civilian areas. It is not impossible to kill Hezbollah without killing civilians.



"Have you heard of close-up? The next time you see a picture of the destruction in a Lebanese town, count how many buildings you see flattened... "


Try opening your eyes and ears? Have you ever heard of Bint Jbeil? It looked flattened, the pan out showed about 75% of it in ruins. A UN peacekeeper who was interviewed who there said the destruction was widespread. What do you think the Israel's 20k+ shells and 2k+ aerial sorties have been doing to Lebanon? Hitting Hezbollah?



"My continued airstrikes? I'm not Israeli, but I guess that's beside the point. Yes, the populace does have the ability to evacuate. Thousands upon thousands have already done so. "


Thousands have evacuated, but thousands are left. Not all have the means to do so, or the will to brave the Israeli strikes. There are numerous reports on TV which show burning hulks of vehicles on the road side. Even on this site, a poster moving from one town to the next saw the car behind them hit by an Israeli bomb. The populace does not have the security to evacuate safely, which is why you see civilians staying behind at Qana.



"I lack common sense? You're the one trying to tell me that the Israelis should not fire if they don't have a clear shot against an enemy whose tactics are designed specifically to prevent clear shots, but I digress...
Show me where Israel has dropped leaflets and not given the residents of that town time to escape. Show me one example of this. "


Yes you do lack common sense. Hezbollah do not walk around carrying human shields as you imply they do. A clear shot can be obtained from the ground. And, if you don't realize that evacuation to Syria or northern Lebanon consists of a LONG JOURNEY for most people getting the leaflets in southern Lebanon I can't say much for your common sense. The leaflets are useless without a halt in the bombing and shelling.



"So because they drop a leaflet on one town, they have to stop their operations all over Lebanon?"

At the minimum they need to stop operations in a corridor allowing for evacuation. The fact the Israelis have not demonstrate just how sincere the leaflets are. Stopping all operations would gurantee safe passage, evacuees may very well have different destinations they wish to go to.



"Same way these people got out."

Drivers charge ridiculous amounts to get people out now. I think the price is a reasonable reflection of just how dangerous the roads are. Btw, your link is no good, I get a page not found.



"The Israelis didn't know that any American news teams were coming. They were brought in by Hezbollah. The reason the Israelis weren't bombing was to give residents time to heed the warnings...warnings that most residents eagerly tore up for the cameras. "

How do you know the American news teams are not in contact with Israeli military liasons like the UN observers were? I don't think it's coincidence no American news teams have been hit. Israel fully realizes it cannot kill an American news team, or the war is over.



"Hmm...that might be because I set aside some to donate to your deficient posts."

I can defend my points well enough without your double standards or faulty logic sir.

[SpartanPhalanx]

thatisnotme wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: what is the difference between a police officer shooting into a crowd with an automatic weapon to kill an armed criminal and a soldier firing into a crowd to with an automatic weapon to kill an enemy soldier?


To make your analogy proper to what is happening in Lebanon, you must add the following: the armed criminal has been there for years among the crowd, and the crowd was all those years either protecting him or complicit that he was hiding among them, or apathetic to do anything to either denounce him or have him arrested. In such a scenario, the crowd by its action/inaction has risked itself to be a target.

Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead. Your arguments to the contrary only expose the hollowness of your position.

In Canada, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization, and by the laws of this country, any aid to Hezbollah is a criminal offense. Its aim is the destruction of Israel, a country that was recognized by the UN. Any entity that aims to destroy a state is a terrorist organization, there no other word for it.

Forget Hezbollah, my above posts points to ISRAEL. Israel administered terror, death and destruction on an unarmed population in 1982 and is doing that very same thing today. Regardless of U.S government opinion, Israelis and Americans do not have the monopoly over who they choose to label terrorists. All they have to do is look in their collective mirror and they will see the terror THEY inflict and have inflicted is far greater than anything delivered by Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad combined.

You're talking crap now....

The violence stems from the fact that the Arabs don't accept the existence of the state of Israel. Had the Arabs accept UN resolution 181 in 1947, which called for two states - one for the Jews who accepted it; and one for the Arabs, who still reject it -- all this violence would not be happening. The Arabs are totally responsible for all the carnage that has taken place since 1947.


Rubbish. If true peace is to emerge, you have to JUSTLY engage your enemies politically and diplomatically. There is no other way. Israel has consistently resorted to dictat in its relations with its neighbours. Israel has a history of invading, making demands, hardly ever negotiating with its demands, then it tries to tell the world "it tried", that its enemies are the ones refusing peace. However the true picture of its efforts are far from honest, far from what it tells the world. Thus the pretext is already set, for more aggression and more carnage. All the while Israel slowly changes its "facts on the ground, e.g. the West Bank expropriation of land, the wall, the E1 project, the massacres in Gaza, the seizure of territory in Lebanon(Shebaa farms) and Syria(Golan) as well as Israel's new aggression as we are seeing now.

Israel is a pathological liar, killer and thief. It uses the fear of "annihilation" to justify It's actions.

If an individual were to exhibit Israel's pathological psychology, he or she would promptly be committed, wrapped in a straight-jacket and pumped full of medication.

[superskippy]

Quote: Israel has a history of invading, making demands, hardly ever negotiating with its demands, then it tries to tell the world "it tried"

Negotiated peace with Egypt after decades of conflict.
Neogitated peace with Jordan after decades of conflict.
Opened full diplomatic and trade relations with many nations of the Arab bloc.
Recently opened up trade relations with Saudi Arabia.
Returned to armistice line after the Syrian Invasion of 1973 and pulled our guns away from Damascus.
Water deals signed with Jordan and the Palestinians.
Basic agreements signed between the Palestinians and Israel.

I could go on and of that list I can find at least two full peace treaties, and at least a score of truces and armistices. As well as the return of massive amounts of territory in exchange for those deals.

Quote: the seizure of territory in Lebanon(Shebaa farms)

It isnt Lebanese and even if Syrias falsly created cassus belli is taken into consideration it wouldnt have been seized since they didnt claim it then.

[thatisnotme]

SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: SpartanPhalanx wrote: thatisnotme wrote: Redruin wrote: what is the difference between a police officer shooting into a crowd with an automatic weapon to kill an armed criminal and a soldier firing into a crowd to with an automatic weapon to kill an enemy soldier?


To make your analogy proper to what is happening in Lebanon, you must add the following: the armed criminal has been there for years among the crowd, and the crowd was all those years either protecting him or complicit that he was hiding among them, or apathetic to do anything to either denounce him or have him arrested. In such a scenario, the crowd by its action/inaction has risked itself to be a target.

Well, humanitarian laws have been broken savagely by Israel and the world court sees things the same way. Israel is now a criminal and its actions in Lebanon are....well....criminal.

Israel STILL has not been brought to account for the carnage it meted out on defenceless populations in Lebanon during its last adventure there in 1982. If you want to call Hezbollah "terrorists" because it undertook social responsibilities to citizens of southern Lebanon, if you want to call them terrorists because they are armed to fight Israeli brutality, then go ahead. Your arguments to the contrary only expose the hollowness of your position.

In Canada, Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization, and by the laws of this country, any aid to Hezbollah is a criminal offense. Its aim is the destruction of Israel, a country that was recognized by the UN. Any entity that aims to destroy a state is a terrorist organization, there no other word for it.

Forget Hezbollah, my above posts points to ISRAEL. Israel administered terror, death and destruction on an unarmed population in 1982 and is doing that very same thing today. Regardless of U.S government opinion, Israelis and Americans do not have the monopoly over who they choose to label terrorists. All they have to do is look in their collective mirror and they will see the terror THEY inflict and have inflicted is far greater than anything delivered by Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad combined.

You're talking crap now....

The violence stems from the fact that the Arabs don't accept the existence of the state of Israel. Had the Arabs accept UN resolution 181 in 1947, which called for two states - one for the Jews who accepted it; and one for the Arabs, who still reject it -- all this violence would not be happening. The Arabs are totally responsible for all the carnage that has taken place since 1947.


Rubbish. If true peace is to emerge, you have to JUSTLY engage your enemies politically and diplomatically. There is no other way. Israel has consistently resorted to dictat in its relations with its neighbours. Israel has a history of invading, making demands, hardly ever negotiating with its demands, then it tries to tell the world "it tried", that its enemies are the ones refusing peace. However the true picture of its efforts are far from honest, far from what it tells the world. Thus the pretext is already set, for more aggression and more carnage. All the while Israel slowly changes its "facts on the ground, e.g. the West Bank expropriation of land, the wall, the E1 project, the massacres in Gaza, the seizure of territory in Lebanon(Shebaa farms) and Syria(Golan) as well as Israel's new aggression as we are seeing now.

Israel is a pathological liar, killer and thief. It uses the fear of "annihilation" to justify It's actions.

If an individual were to exhibit Israel's pathological psychology, he or she would promptly be committed, wrapped in a straight-jacket and pumped full of medication.

Israel is not interested in conquering new land. Because it is surrounded by hostile nations that want to destroy it, it has had its goal of establishing buffer zones between itself and those hostile nations. When Egypt made peace, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt. If and when Syria makes peace with Israel, the Golan Heights will be returned. In Lebanon, Israel is also trying to establish a buffer zone -- as in 1982 when the PLO was launching attacks from there. Now it is Hezbollah, and Israel will try to do the same. The aggression is from the Arabs who have never accepted UN resolution 181 and the creation of the state of Israel. Since 1947, Israel has been defending itself from Arab nations who have declared war on Israel. Israel NEVER declared war on any of them.

[SpartanPhalanx]

superskippy wrote: Quote: Israel has a history of invading, making demands, hardly ever negotiating with its demands, then it tries to tell the world "it tried"

Negotiated peace with Egypt after decades of conflict.
Neogitated peace with Jordan after decades of conflict.
Opened full diplomatic and trade relations with many nations of the Arab bloc.
Recently opened up trade relations with Saudi Arabia.
Returned to armistice line after the Syrian Invasion of 1973 and pulled our guns away from Damascus.
Water deals signed with Jordan and the Palestinians.
Basic agreements signed between the Palestinians and Israel.

I could go on and of that list I can find at least two full peace treaties, and at least a score of truces and armistices. As well as the return of massive amounts of territory in exchange for those deals.

Quote: the seizure of territory in Lebanon(Shebaa farms)

It isnt Lebanese and even if Syrias falsly created cassus belli is taken into consideration it wouldnt have been seized since they didnt claim it then.

Of course you could go on, an please do. It is well known how many of those nations you listed are taking pay-cheques from the Americans, YOUR benefactors. Egypt is the second largest recipient of American aid, next to Israel. You don't think Mubarak thinks about dollars and cents before he opens his mouth? Same for Jordan, same for Saudi Arabia, same for all the Emirates. In one breath you trumpet all the peace treaties you have with your well-thought-out above-mentioned countries, and in the following breath, you will be the first one to say how Israel is surrounded by nations who want to exterminate it. You really need to be a little more organised with your propaganda...

Please...

Shebaa farms are not your territory regardless of what spin you want to apply. Vacate it along with the Golan, the West Bank and East Jerusalem if you don't want more land.... whats the problem?

We're in the 21st century. Israel has the latest technology and weaponry available to anyone. It is the most powerful country in the M.EAst by far...it doesn't need a hilltop vantage point any more than it needs more money ... unless you're a Zionist settler that is ... ;-)

[superskippy]

Quote: Of course you could go on, an please do. It is well known how many of those nations you listed are taking pay-cheques from the Americans, YOUR benefactors. Egypt is the second largest recipient of American aid, next to Israel. You don't think Mubarak thinks about dollars and cents before he opens his mouth? Same for Jordan, same for Saudi Arabia, same for all the Emirates.

We made peace with Egypt some 30 years ago far before Mubarak. And peace with Jordan was the climax to many years of building good relations. Saudi Arabia wants to join the WTO as well as expand the imports it will receive and ended it's combatent nature.

We achieved great succes among many African nations like Morroco after deep investment in turning them.

Spartan it's not all some conspiracy to make peace closer, though I know you might wish the peace treaty with Jordan and Egypt shouldnt have occured for whatever reasons.

Quote: Shebaa farms are not your territory regardless of what spin you want to apply. Vacate it along with the Golan, the West Bank and East Jerusalem if you don't want more land.... whats the problem?

It's not spin it has never in the history of the world been Lebanese territory. We may vacate Sheeba Farms if one day we think we can use it to tie the knot with relations and peace with all the forces of Lebanon it's a pissant cratered farm anyways.

Golan wont be vacated unless the conditions I listed are met also the factor is the very loyal Israeli population there which hinders with each passing year any turn over. Syria maintains a small loyalty of the population by giving massive cash payouts to the population and full scholarships. I have no objection to it though since it gives people a benefit, but the loyalty I want to clearly show is only bought by Syria.

And there is no East Jerusalem, only Jerusalem whole and complete of which the Palestinians are the minority and soon will be in all districts.

The West Bank will one day be vacated but only when we are sure we can have peace from the Palestinians.