Political Crossfire Forums

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2198 Location: 3rd rock

Israel is killing men, women and children in Lebanon, some in convoys, some just for being there and living their lives.....

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2196219

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1821462,00.html

Comments?

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: London

SpartanPhalanx wrote: Israel is killing men, women and children in Lebanon, some in convoys, some just for being there and living their lives.....

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2196219

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1821462,00.html

Comments?

Typical paranoid Israel. Yet again with world sympathy understanding that legitimate action should be taken against Hizbollah. They have decided to go OVER THE TOP yet again. They are predictable and lame, for they will justify each civilian death as a necessary evil and then will be completely dumbfounded to understand why they are resented and hated. The use of disproportion bombing and shelling is utterly illogical and totally in the long term counter productive.
But this is modern Israel for you. This is what happens when the moderate voice does'nt get heard, compared to the "lets hit them even harder" brigade, for that should make them change there ways, is there thinking because this strategy has worked in the past. Has'nt it?

TacticalSniper · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject:

Really? Over the top? The Lebanese governement should've taken care of Hezbollah years ago. Yet, the didn't. Now Lebanese will suffer the consequences.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2198 Location: 3rd rock

TacticalSniper wrote: Really? Over the top? The Lebanese governement should've taken care of Hezbollah years ago. Yet, the didn't. Now Lebanese will suffer the consequences.

I see, so Lebanese innocents have to pay the ultimate price because Israel has a beef with Hezbollah....You have a beef with Hezbollah, take out Hezbollah. You do not murder innocent civilians. Then again, you did exactly the same thing back in 1982...

And you wonder why Israel is hated and despised by everyone in the M.East...just look at yourselves. It's the Blitzkrieg of Poland in 1939 all over again...you will never build trust and security with these actions...never. You have become the monster you fought against during World War II.

Shame on you and your country.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8672 Location: Petah Tikva

Not intentionally, but as a result of the fact that we must deal with Hizbollah since Lebanon has proved unwilling I predict many civilians will die in the crossfire.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: London

TacticalSniper wrote: Really? Over the top? The Lebanese governement should've taken care of Hezbollah years ago. Yet, the didn't. Now Lebanese will suffer the consequences.

If you could'nt take care of Hizbollah, what makes you think in the current climate of M.E politics the Lebanese government could? The whole world knows Israel has the military means to defeat Hizbollah. But as you well know Hizbollah is s guerrilla movement. They don't fight like a conventional army. and most importantly name me a country that has defeated an internal terrorist/guerrilla movement, without running the risk of causing civilians deaths in numbers approaching genocidal figures? The answer is none. Your welcomed to try, but just out of curiosity whats the magic number in civilian dead for any one operation for you personally. Its obviously not 10 or 20 or even 30 dead. Maybe the magic numbers 50? 50 innocent civilians dead for the death of 6 militants. Just out of curiosity, how many IDF personnel have lost their lives in order to rescue 3 kidnapped soldiers. Exactly, you've lost more soldiers than the number you want to save, just because you guys dont stand and refect and think.

jimmyz · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject:

I see smiling faces all around on the German citizens in old wartime(1940's) footage as they walk merrily along to their jobs in the armament factories where they built the means for tyranny and terror of a whole continent(Europe).

I see the smiling faces of the Lebanese citizens as they walk merrily past the Katusha rocket battery manned by Hezbollah trained by Syria and Iran just before the missiles are loosed against innocent civilians in Haifa for the purposes of tyranny and terrorizing of a whole country(Israel).

I am glad for the killing of those Germans who were part of the problem as I am glad for the killings of the Lebanese who are the same...part of the problem.

By being weak in the face of evil you seal your own fate.Muslims by definition are a weak populace.They tremble before the feet of their mullahs and a green covered book that has been hijacked to promote death and deaths culture instead of life and the virtues of peaceful coexistence.Poor poor Muslim world.You kill yourselves.

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2198 Location: 3rd rock

superskippy wrote: Not intentionally, but as a result of the fact that we must deal with Hizbollah since Lebanon has proved unwilling I predict many civilians will die in the crossfire.

What absolute rubbish Skippy. Please, don't insult peoples intelligence with woeful responses like you did above.

Israel is attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure. Airports, sea-ports, highways, fuel depots, electrical transformers. People who are trying to flee the bombardment are picked off like flies, bodies are littering the streets as we speak.

The Labanese prime minister is appealing for support, his country is under siege.

You Country is violating the Geneva conventions as we speak.

Your thoughts are plain for all to see.......how shameful indeed.

TacticalSniper · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject:

Spartan,

Sovereign state of Lebanon attacked sovereign state of Israel. Lebanese people don't like it? Too bad. That's what happens when one state attacks another - war. Actual war. In 1982 there was war started by terrorists and Syrians. Learn some history. MANY of our people been murdered by terrorists and Syrian artillery fire.
Only civilian infrastructure Israel attacked was to stop Hezbollah moving our soldiers to another country (like Syrians did with Ron Arad).
Shame on Greece for supporting Milosevic in murdering thousands. Greeks aren't much better than Nazis - helped genocide. Oh, and you've violated Geneva conventions when helping Milosevic, so maybe we should go bomb your country?

Plato,

Israel never managed to deal with Hezbollah because Israel never been in an actual conflict with Hezbollah - like an open war. Now we're doing exactly it. Oh, and - we can't know if Lebanese Army can or can't deal with Hezbollah. They never tried.
We're ready to sacrifice more soldiers for the kidnapped ones. You Brits wouldn't understand that. You're not in the same position. If Israel wouldn't respond it would provoke Hezbollah for more attacks and kidnappings as they see they're not getting punished for that. And now the whole Arab world blames Hezbollah for the conflict.

GreyThor · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 19 Location: Valencia, Venezuela

Civilian deaths are absolutely unacceptable. Israel had a right to pursue its kidnapped soldiers, but targetting civillian infrastructure so that Lebanon is effectively cut off from the outside world is neither right or acceptable. Now, that right has been forfeited by the civilian casualties. But Israel will not listen to outside criticism, and will continue its attack on Lebanon, justifying any further civilian deaths as collateral damage and an acceptable loss to its ultimate goal of uprooting Hezbollah.

And it isn't helping that Bush is allowing this conflict to go on, after he vetoed the cease-fire request Lebanon requested through the UN.

But the question is: how many more civillian deaths will occur until Israel ends its "justification" for attacking Lebanon? The answer should have been zero. There should never be rampant civillian casualties, like the ones that are occuring under Israel's offensives. Granted, there will always be civillian casualties of war, but the way Israel has shown that it could demonstrate its rather effective means of seperating Lebanon from the world, its attacks have not been precise enough to hit the same targets while preventing civillian deaths.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8672 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: What absolute rubbish Skippy. Please, don't insult peoples intelligence with woeful responses like you did above.

Dont insult individuals in general with responses like this.

Quote: Israel is attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure. Airports, sea-ports, highways, fuel depots, electrical transformers. People who are trying to flee the bombardment are picked off like flies, bodies are littering the streets as we speak.

The Airport is the main route they have for bringing in arms and equipment into Lebanon. It's tactical and strategic importance was noted by Israel, the Lebanese, Syria, the PLO, the Americans, and the other militia groups and it is always fought over. We neutralized it to prevent transportation and to cripple them temporarily.

As for bridges and highways, of course we bombed them. Those are the first targets in any war for any nation, the roads and bridges are the main route of transportation. If you destroy those or hamper them then they cannot move their supplies, prisoners, reinforcements, or equipment at any great speed. It also closes them off from Lebanon.

Fuel Depots are also one of the first targets in any war to be bombed. Lebanon is not oil rich and it's reserves are vital strategic targets. With the blockade in effect and the lack of oil coming in, but destroying these fuel depots we slowly shut down Hizbollah's and the other militias and militants abilities to move at all bringing them to a stand still.

The powerplants are the also vital targets, by destroying them they immensly hinder the ability of any groups to extend communication, maneuver, and in general causes to disarray.

Quote: The Labanese prime minister is appealing for support, his country is under siege.

And Lebanon has failed to stop Hizbollah and resecure the borders like it promised and was compelled to 6 years ago. We will do it for them regardless of how much he may like it.

Quote: You Country is violating the Geneva conventions as we speak.

Not really. It isnt collective punishment or assaulting civilians like your going to claim in your very next post.

Quote: Your thoughts are plain for all to see

Well that is why I wrote my post, I would hope my thoughts were visible for all to see.

Quote: .......how shameful indeed.

Everyone has their own opinion I suppose.

Ellron · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 2278 Location: NY upstate

Hmmm this is recent news... I wouldnt say the Israelis killed those civilians on puprose......but if they did....it was a dumb move.

Ellron · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 2278 Location: NY upstate

jimmyz wrote: I see smiling faces all around on the German citizens in old wartime(1940's) footage as they walk merrily along to their jobs in the armament factories where they built the means for tyranny and terror of a whole continent(Europe).

I see the smiling faces of the Lebanese citizens as they walk merrily past the Katusha rocket battery manned by Hezbollah trained by Syria and Iran just before the missiles are loosed against innocent civilians in Haifa for the purposes of tyranny and terrorizing of a whole country(Israel).

Wow that sounds nothing like the US with Iraq.

Quote: I am glad for the killing of those Germans who were part of the problem as I am glad for the killings of the Lebanese who are the same...part of the problem.
Yes i bet the person in the van making those shoes or baking that bread was the backbone of the Hezbollah movement. Not trying to make a living...But trying to kill people.

Quote: By being weak in the face of evil you seal your own fate.Muslims by definition are a weak populace.They tremble before the feet of their mullahs and a green covered book that has been hijacked to promote death and deaths culture instead of life and the virtues of peaceful coexistence.Poor poor Muslim world.You kill yourselves.

Yes the small populace of Muslims DO represent the majority. RIGHT ON!

You going to show me some poorly translated lines of the Koran now?

SpartanPhalanx · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2198 Location: 3rd rock

TacticalSniper wrote: Spartan,

Sovereign state of Lebanon attacked sovereign state of Israel. Lebanese people don't like it? Too bad. That's what happens when one state attacks another - war. Actual war. In 1982 there was war started by terrorists and Syrians. Learn some history. MANY of our people been murdered by terrorists and Syrian artillery fire.
Only civilian infrastructure Israel attacked was to stop Hezbollah moving our soldiers to another country (like Syrians did with Ron Arad).
Shame on Greece for supporting Milosevic in murdering thousands. Greeks aren't much better than Nazis - helped genocide. Oh, and you've violated Geneva conventions when helping Milosevic, so maybe we should go bomb your country?

Wrong again Sniper....HEZBOLLAH kidnapped two soldiers and Israel saw cause to destroy a country ..... you continue to pose very weak arguments sniper. Very weak indeed.

As for Greece, it is part of NATO, so it was part of NATO's assault on Yugoslavia, however the Greek people supported the Serbian people while they were bombed to oblivion by NATO, Greeks did not support Milosevic. Don't try to discuss things you know little about.

Plato & Socrates · Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 1750 Location: London

superskippy wrote: Not really. It isnt collective punishment or assaulting civilians like your going to claim in your very next post.

Superskippy, you officially reside on planet Zod in the Alpha-stupidous galaxy. It is the most blatant case and example of collective punishment you will see. Come the near future when lecturers give examples of collective punishment, this latest Israeli offensive will be given as one. Your a shameful and pitiful apologist and a denier to the blindingly obvious. Does it disgust and shame you so much, that what you see of Israel sends you into a state of denial?

Superskippy you remind me of a mother who when faced with all the evidence that her son is a serial killer, decides to make a cup of tea and then say "not my son, it looks like my son, but my boy would never do anything like that, is that two sugars or one?" For if you apply Occams Razor to the majority of Israels military operations post 1967, its not a very pretty picture of Israel that appears on the canvas.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8672 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Superskippy, you officially reside on planet Zod in the Alpha-stupidous galaxy.

Very creative Plato, very creative indeed.

Quote: It is the most blatant case and example of collective punishment you will see. Come the near future when lecturers give examples of collective punishment, this latest Israeli offensive will be given as one. Your a shameful and pitiful apologist and a denier to the blindingly obvious. Does it disgust and shame you so much, that what you see of Israel sends you into a state of denial?

So basically your telling me it's collective punishment and that I'm wrong, yes?

I obviously vehemently disagree. I have listed my reasons and examples of all the targets listed.

Kane · Joined: 27 Apr 2006 Posts: 12677 Location: Bay Area, CA

Guys...how long has it been since Lebanon was occupied by Syrian forces? Equate that with a realistic timetable for power and action to grow inside the country...

Lebanon never had a chance.

GreyThor · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 19 Location: Valencia, Venezuela

I don't think that personal commentary will help, so let's just stick to discussing the topic on hand - Lebanon's destruction by Israel, which I believe is rather weakly justified.

My concern is of those tourists and travellers of foreign nations that are currently in Lebanon as we're speaking. Yes, the US, France, and UK are already taking measures to evacuating their citizens out of the country, but if a casualty were to be of foreign nationality... the situation will escalate.

GreyThor · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 19 Location: Valencia, Venezuela

Here's some figures for the topic. It's from CNN.com - it's pretty much what I've been receiving my information from while I'm down here travelling in Venezuela.

"At least 85 Lebanese civilians have been killed, and 229 people have been wounded, according to Lebanese authorities.

Four Israeli civilians, eight soldiers and one sailor have died, Israeli authorities said, adding that 100 other Israelis have been wounded. Three sailors are missing."
Source: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/15/mideast/index.html

These figures.... are awefully one-sided. Not to mention the road infrastructure is already incapacitated.

TacticalSniper · Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject:

Spartan, Israel does not destroy Lebanon. It barely attacked civilian infrastructure. The IDF destroys mainly Hezbollah's rocket placements. I am posting weak arguments? At least, unlike you, I use facts. Hezbollah obviously did not expect they'd get such a reaction. In 2001 they kidnapped three soldiers from my company, 601st battalion. They expected us be quiet, like then. It will not happen. Hezbollah is part of Lebanese government, thus we were attacked by a state. Any country would have responded with the same - so will we.

And I've posted not long ago link to an article that proves Greeks helped Milosevic. Don't try to hide here! You murderous Greeks helped him is slaughtering thousands and a genocide.