Political Crossfire Forums

[Lord Hargreaves]

The results can be read that 66% oppose the campaign, but can also be read to see 63% of Tories either support or at least 'sympathise' with leaving the EU. This comes when David Cameron has promised that no one who supports EU withdrawal will ever get a senior frontbench job.

Tory members are also concerned that a failure to fulfill his pledge to leave the federalist EPP will have a damaging impact on Cameron's credibility:



The Conservative Party in my opinion is more united on Europe than it ever has been. The conflict is now between eurosceptics who want to leave the EPP and return powers to London quickly, and those who have given up on this marxist institution already and want to withdraw. The Europhiles like Ken Clarge and Quentin Davies are a defeated minority.

With this in mind, its extremely hard to see David Cameron expanding his"compassionate wishy-washy" approach to Europe, as this truly is the issue he cannot afford to piss the Right off on.

EDIT - BTW forgot - these polls are from Conservative Home.com

Also for clarity I voted FOR "I support this campaign and hope that Britain will eventually leave the EU" and voted YES, YES, NO on the second poll on Cameron's credibility and the EPP

[DSwain]

Interesting findings. I would have liked to have seen a fourth option -

"I sympathise with the campaign to leave the EU but fear it would allow Labour and the LibDems to paint the Conservatives as extremists."

That is precisely what would happen. Debate with a pro-EU person on the future for the EU - more political union, constitutions etc - and you get them on the backfoot; no one (in the UK especially) wants these things. However, start to campaign on the manifesto of withdrawal (as opposed to renegotiation) then you allow them significant wriggle room. Suddenly the pro-EU camp no longer has to think up ways to justify Brussels and rather they can go on the attack.

[Eton]

Further evidence that the Tories or at least a third of them are MAD.
Also that 26% of them who support joining homophobic/xenophobic parties are disgusting cretins.

[DSwain]

Eton wrote: Further evidence that the Tories or at least a third of them are MAD.
Also that 26% of them who support joining homophobic/xenophobic parties are disgusting cretins.

Thanks Eton for the demonstration of my point.

[Lord Hargreaves]

Eton wrote: Further evidence that the Tories or at least a third of them are MAD.

While even the most ardent europhiles cannot argue that the EU is democractic and open without giggling, and prefer to just dismiss arguments of independence and sovereignty as 'xenophobic' or 'racist' because they know they could never win a free debate on the issue... they have always felt the trump card of increased trade and wealth would be sufficient to keep the angry masses at bay.

However, the dirty secret is Britain would also be economically better off out too, as long as a fair free trade agreement is negotiated in its place. If this is gotten into the public domain, as it increasingly is at least with grassroot Tories - British membership of the EU is history. Our forefathers would be proud of us. :-D

Eton wrote: Also that 26% of them who support joining homophobic/xenophobic parties are disgusting cretins.

I agree they are mistaken, but I think a decision to join these groups (also note 'homophobic' is not defined) is more of a misguided attempt at practical politics than anything else. In fact its probable a lot of those 26% don't want to leave the EPP anyway for the same reasons, i.e. even though they disagree with EPP goals, they want part of the group for voting power.

Also it must be said that if one dared to get beneath the surface of Labour's European Group, the Party of European Socialists, one would find many equally disgusting cretins: "reformed" outright communists with allegedlly a new taste of capitalism (a new belief not usually reflected in their voting records) - many of whom come from Eastern Europe with links to Moscow in their murky past. Yet I see no pressure for Labour to leave this group? Marxism is acceptable but homophobia isn't?

[antonio62]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: While even the most ardent europhiles cannot argue that the EU is democractic and open without giggling, and prefer to just dismiss arguments of independence and sovereignty as 'xenophobic' or 'racist' because they know they could never win a free debate, they have always felt the trump card of increased trade and wealth would be sufficient to keep the angry masses at bay.

However, the dirty secret is Britain would also be economically better off out too, as long as a fair free trade agreement is negotiated in its place. If this is gotten into the public domain, as it increasingly is at least with grassroot Tories - British membership of the EU is history. Our forefathers would be proud of us.

Problem is that you can negotiate a free trade agreement with anyone in the EU without being in the EU. We could join EFTA and get free trade with other country's such as Japan. Wouldn't really want to see one with America considering how they treat free trade agreements.

Although I am pro EU I am becoming less so with the way it continues to go. I only want a free trade and free movement of people as well as perhaps a mini UN type thing within Europe but the political unification that's going on is a bad idea.

[Lord Hargreaves]

antonio62 wrote:
Problem is that you can negotiate a free trade agreement with anyone in the EU without being in the EU. We could join EFTA and get free trade with other country's such as Japan. Wouldn't really want to see one with America considering how they treat free trade agreements.

Exactly. The 21st century should be about free trade for all. Instead, the EU creates 'fair' trade between its members by making every economy equally uncompetitive (as if Churchill's quip that "the virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery" is taken in Europe as good public policy, but without the slighest understanding Winston was being ironic) and then enacting nativist protectionist policies against non-members in a positive attempt to fall behind developing world economies.

antonio62 wrote:
Although I am pro EU I am becoming less so with the way it continues to go. I only want a free trade and free movement of people as well as perhaps a mini UN type thing within Europe but the political unification that's going on is a bad idea.

I want even less, just free trade. I don't have a problem with relaxed laws on people movement but nations must have ultimate control of their own borders. Plus some kind of council where the leaders of all European countries sit and chat, maybe have a lil' photoshoot, would probably be a nice idea. Anything more than that and you'd be hard pressed to justify it.

[bob.appleyard]

My thought on the EU, which I have made clear in other threads, is that membership of it is not a bad thing, per se, but the way in which it currently operates takes power awat from Parliament, and hands it over to Whitehall. It is therefore undemocratic.

[Robin Hood]

As far as I can see it thre are just two benefits of the EU - free movement and free trade. In fact neither of those are really due to the existence of the EU but the non-existence of the EU, and other government, in those areas in human interactions.

[Eton]

Several of you have quite rightly criticised the democratic deficit in the EU decision-making process. Without getting into the nitty gritty details of whether any of us have any influence over decisions (Was going to war against Iraq in the Labour manifesto? Was PFI?) surely the solution is to make sure that the democratic part of the EU - the European Parliament has more power and not to simply give up and run away.

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Lord Hargreaves wrote:

The results can be read that 66% oppose the campaign, but can also be read to see 63% of Tories either support or at least 'sympathise' with leaving the EU. This comes when David Cameron has promised that no one who supports EU withdrawal will ever get a senior frontbench job.

Tory members are also concerned that a failure to fulfill his pledge to leave the federalist EPP will have a damaging impact on Cameron's credibility:



The Conservative Party in my opinion is more united on Europe than it ever has been. The conflict is now between eurosceptics who want to leave the EPP and return powers to London quickly, and those who have given up on this marxist institution already and want to withdraw. The Europhiles like Ken Clarge and Quentin Davies are a defeated minority.

With this in mind, its extremely hard to see David Cameron expanding his"compassionate wishy-washy" approach to Europe, as this truly is the issue he cannot afford to piss the Right off on.

EDIT - BTW forgot - these polls are from Conservative Home.com

Also for clarity I voted FOR "I support this campaign and hope that Britain will eventually leave the EU" and voted YES, YES, NO on the second poll on Cameron's credibility and the EPP :dance:
I hope the Torries will win the next election and take UK out of EU...

[MoscowMatt]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: many of whom come from Eastern Europe with links to Moscow in their murky past

And what exactly is wrong with that? :? Or are you stereotyping by any chance??

[Chymical]

They take our jobs!

[Lord Hargreaves]

Robin Hood wrote: As far as I can see it thre are just two benefits of the EU - free movement and free trade. In fact neither of those are really due to the existence of the EU but the non-existence of the EU, and other government, in those areas in human interactions.

I expect we might disagree on just how free "free movement" should be, but essentially this sums up the conservative/libertarian attitude to the EU

Eton wrote: Several of you have quite rightly criticised the democratic deficit in the EU decision-making process. Without getting into the nitty gritty details of whether any of us have any influence over decisions (Was going to war against Iraq in the Labour manifesto? Was PFI?) surely the solution is to make sure that the democratic part of the EU - the European Parliament has more power and not to simply give up and run away.

Not that I disagree as a pragmatist that the EU 'parliament' should have more powers. But you miss the essential conservative argument, which is, based upon the supremacy of the nation state, that by its very nature this kind of supranational institution is undemocratic.

The idea of British democracy is that British laws and regulations are passed by British politicans accountable to the British people. With a EU parliament, no matter how reformed, you will always get non-British citizens voting for non-British politicans, unaccountable to the British people, nevertheless having a substantial role in passing British laws. This is the key 'democratic deficit' argument.

Achilles The Myrmidon wrote: :dance:
I hope the Torries will win the next election and take UK out of EU...

We can only hope and pray that will be the case, and with it the consequence that the EU can no longer afford to pay the Greek subsidy :wink:

MoscowMatt wrote: Lord Hargreaves wrote: many of whom come from Eastern Europe with links to Moscow in their murky past

And what exactly is wrong with that? :? Or are you stereotyping by any chance??

What is wrong with that?!? As in, what is wrong with former communists loyal to the Soviet regime in Moscow being prominent legislators in the European Parliament? :shock:

Chymical wrote: They take our jobs!

Pretty much the dictionary definition of spamming, though somewhat amusing nonetheless

[MoscowMatt]

Lord Hargreaves wrote:
What is wrong with that?!? As in, what is wrong with former communists loyal to the Soviet regime in Moscow being prominent legislators in the European Parliament? :shock:


I noticed you said FORMER Communists, meaning they are not now. Also the last time I looked the Soviet regime in Moscow was no more. So like I said how is any of this relevant to today?!!

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Lord Hargreaves[quote="Achilles The Myrmidon wrote: :dance:
I hope the Torries will win the next election and take UK out of EU...

We can only hope and pray that will be the case, and with it the consequence that the EU can no longer afford to pay the Greek subsidy :wink:

[/quote]Hey thanks for paying for us all these years :-D

Seriously now i believe that the UK has no place in EU.I think that if UK and EU could agree in a free trade deal then it would be for the best for both parties interest that the UK must leave from EU...