Political Crossfire Forums

[Spider]

I've been reading through the Jack Aubrey series by Patrick O'Brian (excellent, by the way, if your have not read it) and I'm wondering what a few of the terms mean and maybe where they came from...


What is a foremast jack? Seems to refer to members of a crew on a RN ship

What is soused hog's face? I hope it not what it sounds like..

What is a Xebec Frigate, as oppoed to a regular frigate?

What is a slow-match...? Is it just what it sounds like...a slow burning match?

What is bar-shot?

And am I correct in thinking a carronade to be simply a stubby large-bored short range gun?

Also...how large a force did britain maintain in the channel during this period (roughly 1799-1815)...I read somewhere that the RN posessed something like 100 ships of the line at this time. Did they use their heavy first rate ships in foriegn actions? By heavy I mean something along the lines of 80-100 guns. Or were they always kept at home to dissuade the french and dutch?

Anyways...be interesting to hear some more on this...

[DSwain]

This is a list of Ships of the Line maintained in the Channel Fleet in 1801

http://www.nelson-society.org.uk/html/channel_fleet_1801.htm


Ships of the Line would mainly be kept in home waters unless the main battle fleet of an enemy power had itself left European waters such as with the preamble to Trafalgar with Nelson and Villeneuve crossing and re-crossing the Atlantic. But, most overseas stations would depend on frigates and second-rate ships of the line - 64 guns and below - as flagships.

As for the terms, this appears to answer some things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms


Soused hog's face is what it sounds like; apparently, there is a cookbook based on the Jack Aubrey series
"Lobscouse & Spotted Dog"
http://www.wwnorton.com/pob/spottedd/welcome.htm


'Xebec' is a different manner of rigging
http://www.geocities.com/xebecinc/info.html


Out of interest, do you know that one of the nicknames of the Royal Navy is 'The Andrew'? Its origins are lost in the murk, but the most prevalent explanation is that a particularly successful and notorious press-ganger in Portsmouth was named 'Andrew':

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.17840

[thundertaker]

'Jack' is the nickname of a British sailor, short for 'Jack Tar', just as 'Tommy Atkins' is for a British Soldier.

'Foremost Jack' refers to the First Liuetennant on board a ship.He is usually the most senior sailor apart from the Captain.

A 'Slow Match' is the burning piece of cord at the end of a rod used to fire loaded cannon.

'Bar Shot' was two cannonballs joined together by a metal bar which was used (along with 'chain shot') to cut through masts and rigging, thus crippling an enemy ship, allowing it to be boarded and taken as prize.

A carronade was a low-velocity cannon designed to chiefly to cause maximum anti-personell damage at short range. The same effect was achieved at Trafalgar when Nelson ordered the ordinary guns of his ships to be double-shotted for close range work, lowering their muzzle velocity so that they would bounce around the deck of the French and Spanish ships wreaking bloody havoc upon the crews after the initial penatration of the hull.......

I think DSwain has managed to answer all the other questions.......:D

[Spider]

Ahh, great! Thanks guys, for the info and links. Its interesting how names, nicknames, terms etc come to be. This author does a pretty excellent job of capturing period mannerisms and langauge, but much of it is well beyond my ability to work backwards through, so as to judge meanings.

[Freemason]

Spider wrote: I've been reading through the Jack Aubrey series by Patrick O'Brian (excellent, by the way, if your have not read it) and I'm wondering what a few of the terms mean and maybe where they came from...


What is a foremast jack? Seems to refer to members of a crew on a RN ship

What is soused hog's face? I hope it not what it sounds like..

What is a Xebec Frigate, as oppoed to a regular frigate?

What is a slow-match...? Is it just what it sounds like...a slow burning match?

What is bar-shot?

And am I correct in thinking a carronade to be simply a stubby large-bored short range gun?

Also...how large a force did britain maintain in the channel during this period (roughly 1799-1815)...I read somewhere that the RN posessed something like 100 ships of the line at this time. Did they use their heavy first rate ships in foriegn actions? By heavy I mean something along the lines of 80-100 guns. Or were they always kept at home to dissuade the french and dutch?

Anyways...be interesting to hear some more on this...

Well the Battle of Trafalgar was fought mostly with 104 gunned ships but that's 50 down the broadside (each).

Most ships of the line aren't even 80 guns at the time.

I think the ship Jack was captaining was something like ... 55 guns?

I disagree with 'Foremast Jack' I think it's referring to the flag on the foremast but then - you did say what it seems to refer too - so maybe you should give full context?

[Spider]

Freemason wrote: Spider wrote: I've been reading through the Jack Aubrey series by Patrick O'Brian (excellent, by the way, if your have not read it) and I'm wondering what a few of the terms mean and maybe where they came from...


What is a foremast jack? Seems to refer to members of a crew on a RN ship

What is soused hog's face? I hope it not what it sounds like..

What is a Xebec Frigate, as oppoed to a regular frigate?

What is a slow-match...? Is it just what it sounds like...a slow burning match?

What is bar-shot?

And am I correct in thinking a carronade to be simply a stubby large-bored short range gun?

Also...how large a force did britain maintain in the channel during this period (roughly 1799-1815)...I read somewhere that the RN posessed something like 100 ships of the line at this time. Did they use their heavy first rate ships in foriegn actions? By heavy I mean something along the lines of 80-100 guns. Or were they always kept at home to dissuade the french and dutch?

Anyways...be interesting to hear some more on this...

Well the Battle of Trafalgar was fought mostly with 104 gunned ships but that's 50 down the broadside (each).

Most ships of the line aren't even 80 guns at the time.

I think the ship Jack was captaining was something like ... 55 guns?

I disagree with 'Foremast Jack' I think it's referring to the flag on the foremast but then - you did say what it seems to refer too - so maybe you should give full context?

Actually, as I went through the list of terms that DSwain was so kind as to link for us, I found Foremast Jack to be a term for an enlisted sailor. The context would be occasional conversation in which sailors are spoken of in general terms. I just never came to the realization that any enlisted sailor might be refered to as a foremast jack. I assume that Thundertaker misread my post as foremost as opposed to foremast when he said it might refer to the first lieutenent.

As fo Jack Aubrey, he commands a different ship in each book, ranging from a small sloop to larger ships of the line. I am very much enjoying the series. The scene where Aubrey has been written into actions with American ships during the war of 1812, as well as a fascinating account of the battle between the HMS Java and USS Constitution left me seriously confused as to who I should be cheering for.

Also....I was under the impression that the majority of warships at Trafalgar were in the range of 70-80 guns, with perhaps 3-5 being 100 gun ships. Its still a staggering amount of firepower, however. I can't think of a more significant naval battle.

[thundertaker]

I have heard of First Liuetennants refered to as 'first jacks', so the idea that that they might be referred to as 'foremost jacks' is still not very outlandish.
The Naval flag or 'Jack' on board a ship was regarded as a member of the crew, which might explain the origins of the name..

[DSwain]

Spider wrote: Freemason wrote: Spider wrote: I've been reading through the Jack Aubrey series by Patrick O'Brian (excellent, by the way, if your have not read it) and I'm wondering what a few of the terms mean and maybe where they came from...


What is a foremast jack? Seems to refer to members of a crew on a RN ship

What is soused hog's face? I hope it not what it sounds like..

What is a Xebec Frigate, as oppoed to a regular frigate?

What is a slow-match...? Is it just what it sounds like...a slow burning match?

What is bar-shot?

And am I correct in thinking a carronade to be simply a stubby large-bored short range gun?

Also...how large a force did britain maintain in the channel during this period (roughly 1799-1815)...I read somewhere that the RN posessed something like 100 ships of the line at this time. Did they use their heavy first rate ships in foriegn actions? By heavy I mean something along the lines of 80-100 guns. Or were they always kept at home to dissuade the french and dutch?

Anyways...be interesting to hear some more on this...

Well the Battle of Trafalgar was fought mostly with 104 gunned ships but that's 50 down the broadside (each).

Most ships of the line aren't even 80 guns at the time.

I think the ship Jack was captaining was something like ... 55 guns?

I disagree with 'Foremast Jack' I think it's referring to the flag on the foremast but then - you did say what it seems to refer too - so maybe you should give full context?

Actually, as I went through the list of terms that DSwain was so kind as to link for us, I found Foremast Jack to be a term for an enlisted sailor. The context would be occasional conversation in which sailors are spoken of in general terms. I just never came to the realization that any enlisted sailor might be refered to as a foremast jack. I assume that Thundertaker misread my post as foremost as opposed to foremast when he said it might refer to the first lieutenent.

As fo Jack Aubrey, he commands a different ship in each book, ranging from a small sloop to larger ships of the line. I am very much enjoying the series. The scene where Aubrey has been written into actions with American ships during the war of 1812, as well as a fascinating account of the battle between the HMS Java and USS Constitution left me seriously confused as to who I should be cheering for.

Also....I was under the impression that the majority of warships at Trafalgar were in the range of 70-80 guns, with perhaps 3-5 being 100 gun ships. Its still a staggering amount of firepower, however. I can't think of a more significant naval battle.

Well, your chaps did rather well against the Royal Navy 1812-1814! Certainly gave our frigates a heck of a fright!

Most of the first rate ships-of-the-line in the RN circa 1805 would have been 74-gun two-deckers, with a small number of 98-gun and above three-deckers (the RN had 22 ships-of-the-line 98-gun to 120-gun and 96 two-deckers, the most prevalent of which was the 74-gun two-decker - there were 69 of these). (This is a good piece from 1905 about the RN in 1805 http://home.gci.net/~stall/traf.htm)


A more recent bit of RN parlance for first officer is 'Jimmy the One', which I've always rather liked! Like Thunder, I've come across 'first jack' as well for first officer.

Spider - have you read the Bolitho books? Potboilers along the lines of Hornblower, good entertainment though.

[philm]

Does "The Andrew"perhaps not relate to an ancient Scots legend that the bones of the Apostle Andrew, washed up on a ship at the the place now known unsurprisingly as St.Andrews?

A little facetious there...Have no idea what Andrew refers to!

[DSwain]

philm wrote: Does "The Andrew"perhaps not relate to an ancient Scots legend that the bones of the Apostle Andrew, washed up on a ship at the the place now known unsurprisingly as St.Andrews?

A little facetious there...Have no idea what Andrew refers to!

There's no definitive definition - so you might be right

[philm]

DSWAIN
You are a gentleman,
particularly to amatuer historians like myself!

[DSwain]

philm wrote: DSWAIN
You are a gentleman,
particularly to amatuer historians like myself!

There's none more amateur than me, Philm!

[Spider]

DSwain wrote: Spider wrote: Freemason wrote: Spider wrote: I've been reading through the Jack Aubrey series by Patrick O'Brian (excellent, by the way, if your have not read it) and I'm wondering what a few of the terms mean and maybe where they came from...


What is a foremast jack? Seems to refer to members of a crew on a RN ship

What is soused hog's face? I hope it not what it sounds like..

What is a Xebec Frigate, as oppoed to a regular frigate?

What is a slow-match...? Is it just what it sounds like...a slow burning match?

What is bar-shot?

And am I correct in thinking a carronade to be simply a stubby large-bored short range gun?

Also...how large a force did britain maintain in the channel during this period (roughly 1799-1815)...I read somewhere that the RN posessed something like 100 ships of the line at this time. Did they use their heavy first rate ships in foriegn actions? By heavy I mean something along the lines of 80-100 guns. Or were they always kept at home to dissuade the french and dutch?

Anyways...be interesting to hear some more on this...

Well the Battle of Trafalgar was fought mostly with 104 gunned ships but that's 50 down the broadside (each).

Most ships of the line aren't even 80 guns at the time.

I think the ship Jack was captaining was something like ... 55 guns?

I disagree with 'Foremast Jack' I think it's referring to the flag on the foremast but then - you did say what it seems to refer too - so maybe you should give full context?

Actually, as I went through the list of terms that DSwain was so kind as to link for us, I found Foremast Jack to be a term for an enlisted sailor. The context would be occasional conversation in which sailors are spoken of in general terms. I just never came to the realization that any enlisted sailor might be refered to as a foremast jack. I assume that Thundertaker misread my post as foremost as opposed to foremast when he said it might refer to the first lieutenent.

As fo Jack Aubrey, he commands a different ship in each book, ranging from a small sloop to larger ships of the line. I am very much enjoying the series. The scene where Aubrey has been written into actions with American ships during the war of 1812, as well as a fascinating account of the battle between the HMS Java and USS Constitution left me seriously confused as to who I should be cheering for.

Also....I was under the impression that the majority of warships at Trafalgar were in the range of 70-80 guns, with perhaps 3-5 being 100 gun ships. Its still a staggering amount of firepower, however. I can't think of a more significant naval battle.

Well, your chaps did rather well against the Royal Navy 1812-1814! Certainly gave our frigates a heck of a fright!

Most of the first rate ships-of-the-line in the RN circa 1805 would have been 74-gun two-deckers, with a small number of 98-gun and above three-deckers (the RN had 22 ships-of-the-line 98-gun to 120-gun and 96 two-deckers, the most prevalent of which was the 74-gun two-decker - there were 69 of these). (This is a good piece from 1905 about the RN in 1805 http://home.gci.net/~stall/traf.htm)


A more recent bit of RN parlance for first officer is 'Jimmy the One', which I've always rather liked! Like Thunder, I've come across 'first jack' as well for first officer.

Spider - have you read the Bolitho books? Potboilers along the lines of Hornblower, good entertainment though.

No I have not. This is my first foray into fiction of this period. My reading into this stuff has included In Pursuit of Victory, by Roger Knight, a very readable biographical angle of Nelson himself, as well as some work by Cassell and Rothenberg on the Napoleonic era. I've never read any Hornblower :!oops:

[DSwain]

Spider wrote: DSwain wrote: Spider wrote: Freemason wrote: Spider wrote: I've been reading through the Jack Aubrey series by Patrick O'Brian (excellent, by the way, if your have not read it) and I'm wondering what a few of the terms mean and maybe where they came from...


What is a foremast jack? Seems to refer to members of a crew on a RN ship

What is soused hog's face? I hope it not what it sounds like..

What is a Xebec Frigate, as oppoed to a regular frigate?

What is a slow-match...? Is it just what it sounds like...a slow burning match?

What is bar-shot?

And am I correct in thinking a carronade to be simply a stubby large-bored short range gun?

Also...how large a force did britain maintain in the channel during this period (roughly 1799-1815)...I read somewhere that the RN posessed something like 100 ships of the line at this time. Did they use their heavy first rate ships in foriegn actions? By heavy I mean something along the lines of 80-100 guns. Or were they always kept at home to dissuade the french and dutch?

Anyways...be interesting to hear some more on this...

Well the Battle of Trafalgar was fought mostly with 104 gunned ships but that's 50 down the broadside (each).

Most ships of the line aren't even 80 guns at the time.

I think the ship Jack was captaining was something like ... 55 guns?

I disagree with 'Foremast Jack' I think it's referring to the flag on the foremast but then - you did say what it seems to refer too - so maybe you should give full context?

Actually, as I went through the list of terms that DSwain was so kind as to link for us, I found Foremast Jack to be a term for an enlisted sailor. The context would be occasional conversation in which sailors are spoken of in general terms. I just never came to the realization that any enlisted sailor might be refered to as a foremast jack. I assume that Thundertaker misread my post as foremost as opposed to foremast when he said it might refer to the first lieutenent.

As fo Jack Aubrey, he commands a different ship in each book, ranging from a small sloop to larger ships of the line. I am very much enjoying the series. The scene where Aubrey has been written into actions with American ships during the war of 1812, as well as a fascinating account of the battle between the HMS Java and USS Constitution left me seriously confused as to who I should be cheering for.

Also....I was under the impression that the majority of warships at Trafalgar were in the range of 70-80 guns, with perhaps 3-5 being 100 gun ships. Its still a staggering amount of firepower, however. I can't think of a more significant naval battle.

Well, your chaps did rather well against the Royal Navy 1812-1814! Certainly gave our frigates a heck of a fright!

Most of the first rate ships-of-the-line in the RN circa 1805 would have been 74-gun two-deckers, with a small number of 98-gun and above three-deckers (the RN had 22 ships-of-the-line 98-gun to 120-gun and 96 two-deckers, the most prevalent of which was the 74-gun two-decker - there were 69 of these). (This is a good piece from 1905 about the RN in 1805 http://home.gci.net/~stall/traf.htm)


A more recent bit of RN parlance for first officer is 'Jimmy the One', which I've always rather liked! Like Thunder, I've come across 'first jack' as well for first officer.

Spider - have you read the Bolitho books? Potboilers along the lines of Hornblower, good entertainment though.

No I have not. This is my first foray into fiction of this period. My reading into this stuff has included In Pursuit of Victory, by Roger Knight, a very readable biographical angle of Nelson himself, as well as some work by Cassell and Rothenberg on the Napoleonic era. I've never read any Hornblower :!oops:

All very appropriate as yesterday was the 201st anniversary of Trafalgar

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6072534.stm