Political Crossfire Forums

Melcar · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject:

thundertaker wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: The re-evaluation would have happened anyway had he needed it.

Germany's army was well-led and armed...but it was small. The only reason they were able to beat France is due to poor leadership.

It was only through the bitter experiance of WWII that Stalin re-evaluated his position with regards to leadership within the Red Army.
Assuming there was no Nazi Germany, and if Stalin had tried to launch a full-scale assault on continental Europe (which I doubt he ever intended to do) it would have been like the winter war x10. A war of WWII's magnitude would have been impossible to prosecute without the self-defence element the Nazis provided, otherwise Stalin would have over-run Finland regardless of the huge casualties he would have incurred......

In my scenario both Germany and Spain succumb to communism. I have no doubt Stalin would have secured alliances and engaged in an European war. WW2 was... dare I say it... *destined* to happen. Same players, different motives.

eynon · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject:

Melcar wrote: thundertaker wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: The re-evaluation would have happened anyway had he needed it.

Germany's army was well-led and armed...but it was small. The only reason they were able to beat France is due to poor leadership.

It was only through the bitter experiance of WWII that Stalin re-evaluated his position with regards to leadership within the Red Army.
Assuming there was no Nazi Germany, and if Stalin had tried to launch a full-scale assault on continental Europe (which I doubt he ever intended to do) it would have been like the winter war x10. A war of WWII's magnitude would have been impossible to prosecute without the self-defence element the Nazis provided, otherwise Stalin would have over-run Finland regardless of the huge casualties he would have incurred......

In my scenario both Germany and Spain succumb to communism. I have no doubt Stalin would have secured alliances and engaged in an European war. WW2 was... dare I say it... *destined* to happen. Same players, different motives.

I don't know if Hitler was destined to happen, but a European war against the Soviets and a war over control of East Asia and the Pacific were bound to happen.

Melcar · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject:

Eynon81 wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote:

Given Russia's performance in the Winter War of 1939-1940 against the tiny nation of Finland, I somehow doubt that........

So? In '39 Germany's army was pretty poor too. Armies can grow a lot in a couple years.

Quote:
we'd still be worshiping the old Grecco-Roman gods, nailing people to trees, enslaving conquered peoples, etc.........basically without Judeo-Christian culture to take the edge off, Western Civ would be a lot more brutal....maybe a bit more rational, but definitely more brutal.

I'd actually prefer the old Grecco-Roman gods...but that's unlikely. Christianity was the first religion that spread extremely far. It's unlikely that if Christianity did not exist that another religion would take its place and dominate a huge area.

And religion has nothing to do with brutality. Medieval Europe was heavily dominated by Christianity...that didn't stop it from being a very shi**y time.

Quote:

It would have been ugly. People can bash judeo-christianity all they want, but the fact is that it was the best thing to happen to humanity.

Remember the Dark Ages? Remember the Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades? Remember the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre?

Best thing to happen to humanity my ass.

Quote: Egad, go back in time to slaughter the innocent baby jesus in his crib? Tell me, has anyone ever commented on an ungodly, sulpherous stench that seems to accompany you wherever you go? Is your name Damien?

I'd much rather kill one innocent baby than allow thousands/millions more to be killed in, say, the Crusades.

lots of historical evidence suggest the Middle and Dark ages were far tamer because of the Judeo-Christian ethic....things like slaughtering entire cities and enslaving enemy combatants became frowned on. Many of the eras more violent Kings would often find themselves opposed by the Church.

Not just Christians either, Saladin fought with honor because of his faith, a faith deeply rooted in the one started by Moses and exspanded by Jesus. That system of honor would go on to greatly influence the modern rules of war we have now.

consider this.....far, far more people died in Ceaser's 8 year war in Gaul, then in the entire 200 year history of the Crusades.

More people would die in one Summer of Roman games then in 400 years of witch-hunts and inquisitions.

Yes. Contrary to popular believe, the Dark Ages were not that dark. There was still a lot of progress going on. It was all church controlled but you still had innovations like in the arts, architecture, and even in certain sciences.
As for the Inquisition, I once saw a few shows on the Discovery times and History Channels were it was said that most of the bad rep. the Inquisition got at the time was because of Protestant propaganda. Not saying that the Inquisition was innocent of crimes, but this thoery is not that hard to rationalize.
No Islam would have potentially meant no Arabic expansion, which in turn would have led to the absence of ideological exchange between East and West.
Not having Christianity-Islam-Judaism in the picture opens for a lot of possibilities. Remember that the Romans under their "pagan" leadership were extremely brutal (they eliminated entire cultures); after the eventual fall of Rome some other culture (possibly even more ruthless) would have taken its place.
Also, imagine a non-christian America; would America even exist? Suffice to say that without judeo-christian culture the history of the West (and even the world) would have been really different, and perhaps not for the best.

Melcar · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject:

Eynon81 wrote: Melcar wrote: thundertaker wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: The re-evaluation would have happened anyway had he needed it.

Germany's army was well-led and armed...but it was small. The only reason they were able to beat France is due to poor leadership.

It was only through the bitter experiance of WWII that Stalin re-evaluated his position with regards to leadership within the Red Army.
Assuming there was no Nazi Germany, and if Stalin had tried to launch a full-scale assault on continental Europe (which I doubt he ever intended to do) it would have been like the winter war x10. A war of WWII's magnitude would have been impossible to prosecute without the self-defence element the Nazis provided, otherwise Stalin would have over-run Finland regardless of the huge casualties he would have incurred......

In my scenario both Germany and Spain succumb to communism. I have no doubt Stalin would have secured alliances and engaged in an European war. WW2 was... dare I say it... *destined* to happen. Same players, different motives.

I don't know if Hitler was destined to happen, but a European war against the Soviets and a war over control of East Asia and the Pacific were bound to happen.

Nazism and Hitler were products of circumstances. War was bound to happen with or without them.

FarPastGone · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 540

After much consideration I had thought that maybe I would want to somehow (I am not exactly sure how with 3 bullets) stop the coups in Latin America, most notably the coup that set the military junta into power after the Perrons reign in Argentina resulting in the Dirty Wars. As well as the military overthrow in Guatemala that led to the Carlos Castillo Armas empowerment (which eventually led to the civil wars in Guatemala) or the CIA members behind the scenes responsible for the overthrow that led to his empowerment. However since the possibility that the world and nations could be worse off had history not run the course it ran I would most likely not go back and kill any high profile political target, but instead just go back in time and wound several dinosaurs, so I could bring them back with me, and effectivley geneticly cloan them, and later go on to create an island theme park called Jurassic Park.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6953 Location: Ohio

FarPastGone wrote: After much consideration I had thought that maybe I would want to somehow (I am not exactly sure how with 3 bullets) stop the coups in Latin America, most notably the coup that set the military junta into power after the Perrons reign in Argentina resulting in the Dirty Wars. As well as the military overthrow in Guatemala that led to the Carlos Castillo Armas empowerment (which eventually led to the civil wars in Guatemala) or the CIA members behind the scenes responsible for the overthrow that led to his empowerment. However since the possibility that the world and nations could be worse off had history not run the course it ran I would most likely not go back and kill any high profile political target, but instead just go back in time and wound several dinosaurs, so I could bring them back with me, and effectivley geneticly cloan them, and later go on to create an island theme park called Jurassic Park.

Best post ever.

Kilo Tango · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 9388 Location: D.C.

I’d whack JFK because a time traveling gunslinger is the only thing missing from the conspiracy theories.

Next I’d cap Michael Moore at the premier of Bowling for Columbine because, hey, irony rocks and I think he’d appreciate the legacy.

Lastly, I’d waste my 10th grade woodshop teacher. God I HATED that f**ktard.

thundertaker · Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:38 am Post subject:

Kilo Tango wrote: I’d whack JFK because a time traveling gunslinger is the only thing missing from the conspiracy theories.

They already did that in 'Red Dwarf' Series VII. Well, except for the gunslinger part, but the gang were gunslingers in the previous series.....

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1172 Location: Florida

Kaiser Wilhelm II, instegator of WWI. If it hadn't been for him, there would have been no Hitler, no Stalin, No Soviet Union, No Communist China, no Castro, No Vietnam, No Cambodia. In addition to that? Perhaps Napoleon? I do love him as a leader, but Europe generally suffered after his empire was bannished. People credit him with spreading the Napoleonic Code, but many of the regimes he toppled came back after he himself was toppled, and were much harsher after Napoleon then they had been before. That and he disbanded the Holy Roman Empire. I so wish that was around today; just for having a cool name. The last bullet? Hmm... I have to agree with the guy who nominated John Wilkes Booth.

Wyatt Earp · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 358

Kilo Tango wrote: I’d whack JFK because a time traveling gunslinger is the only thing missing from the conspiracy theories.

Next I’d cap Michael Moore at the premier of Bowling for Columbine because, hey, irony rocks and I think he’d appreciate the legacy.

Lastly, I’d waste my 10th grade woodshop teacher. God I D that f**ktard.

what you could not make that wooden lamp right? :lol:

I would only need one bullet kill that Lucy chick (the missing link)
then there would be no homosapiens and Neanderthals would rule the world. No t.v. no cars no Internet.

Melcar · Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject:

Wyatt Earp wrote: Kilo Tango wrote: I’d whack JFK because a time traveling gunslinger is the only thing missing from the conspiracy theories.

Next I’d cap Michael Moore at the premier of Bowling for Columbine because, hey, irony rocks and I think he’d appreciate the legacy.

Lastly, I’d waste my 10th grade woodshop teacher. God I D that f**ktard.

what you could not make that wooden lamp right? :lol:

I would only need one bullet kill that Lucy chick (the missing link)
then there would be no homosapiens and Neanderthals would rule the world. No t.v. no cars no Internet.

The Neanderthals were already dying out. Bad idea to kill off "missing links".

Wyatt Earp · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 358

Melcar wrote: Wyatt Earp wrote: Kilo Tango wrote: I’d whack JFK because a time traveling gunslinger is the only thing missing from the conspiracy theories.

Next I’d cap Michael Moore at the premier of Bowling for Columbine because, hey, irony rocks and I think he’d appreciate the legacy.

Lastly, I’d waste my 10th grade woodshop teacher. God I D that f**ktard.

what you could not make that wooden lamp right? :lol:

I would only need one bullet kill that Lucy chick (the missing link)
then there would be no homosapiens and Neanderthals would rule the world. No t.v. no cars no Internet.

The Neanderthals were already dying out. Bad idea to kill off "missing links".

Nah they way I understand it, the Homosapiens were running off the Neanderthals, and by the way what is wrong if they both were knocked off?

Melcar · Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject:

Wyatt Earp wrote: Melcar wrote: Wyatt Earp wrote: Kilo Tango wrote: I’d whack JFK because a time traveling gunslinger is the only thing missing from the conspiracy theories.

Next I’d cap Michael Moore at the premier of Bowling for Columbine because, hey, irony rocks and I think he’d appreciate the legacy.

Lastly, I’d waste my 10th grade woodshop teacher. God I D that f**ktard.

what you could not make that wooden lamp right? :lol:

I would only need one bullet kill that Lucy chick (the missing link)
then there would be no homosapiens and Neanderthals would rule the world. No t.v. no cars no Internet.

The Neanderthals were already dying out. Bad idea to kill off "missing links".

Nah they way I understand it, the Homosapiens were running off the Neanderthals, and by the way what is wrong if they both were knocked off?

None of us would be posting in this forum for one.

GOP (Grand Old Patriots) · Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 5 Location: Palatine, IL

Three bullets and a gun? Arminius the German tribesman. His betrayal and ambush of the Romans at the Teutoburg in AD 9 ended the expansion (more or less) of the Roman Empire and led to its decline and eventual fall, one of the worst moments in history. Not only was a vast amount of scientific knowledge, culture, Classical reason, and miltary technology lost for centuries, but the standard of living in Europe would not reach its Roman-era level until the early 1700's.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8921

Three bullets and a time machine?

Well, first I'd kill you for giving me the idea,

Then I'd go back and kill the guy who made the time machine before he made it,

Then I'd kill myself so I wouldn't have to live with the consequences.

[/sarcasm]

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6953 Location: Ohio

On second thought...

I'd probably kill Pope Urban II

pikers · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject:

1. Emporer Hirohito,
2. Saddam (YEARS ago),
3. Cindy Sheehan, just for $hits and giggles.

pikers · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject:

Kilo Tango wrote: I’d whack JFK because a time traveling gunslinger is the only thing missing from the conspiracy theories.

Next I’d cap Michael Moore at the premier of Bowling for Columbine because, hey, irony rocks and I think he’d appreciate the legacy.

Lastly, I’d waste my 10th grade woodshop teacher. God I HATED that f**ktard.

:lol:

Wyatt Earp · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 358

pikers wrote: 3. Cindy Sheehan, just for $hits and giggles.

Not cool.

eynon · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject:

Demonic Spoon wrote: On second thought...

I'd probably kill Pope Urban II

crusades would've happened anyways....too many Frankish and Norman knights with not enough to do....