Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Quote: Do you mean that you strongly believe that you, personally, will be alive on Earth long enough to physically witness it? Do you ever temper this belief with the consideration that God may have determined that your time will come before the Rapture occurs? Do you ever consider that your wife or your children may not live to see it?

Yes, I consider that the Rapture could possibly be far into the future...and I'm just fine with that. But the way things are going it could be today.

[cap'n queasy]

Rozzlapeed wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If some reliable authority told you that you will either die or witness the rapture on Saturday, would you do anything different to prepare for the weekend, depending on which event you think is more likely to occur?

The thing is, a reliable authority told us that we aren't going to know when it is going to happen, and so should be doing things differently all along, anyway.

What I'm asking is, when you picture your last day on Earth, what do you see? Do you see yourself witnessing the end of the world, or do you see yourself dying in some manner? Do you think this mental impression affects how you go about preparing for the end?

Well, I believe if I live until the Rapture happens, this will happen.

Quote: 1 Thess 3:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


See where it says the living will be "caught up"?

If this was written in Latin that would read "rapturo" or if it was in Greek it would read "harpazo".

And right after that it say "therefore comfort each other with these words".

That is why we talk about this. It's a scriptural commandment to do so.

[Rozzlapeed]

John wrote: Quote: You say, "we believe [it will] happen to us." Who are you referring to when you say, "us"? Do you mean all the born-again Christians who are alive today? Or do you mean all the born-again Christians alive today, minus the number of Christians who will die before that day, plus the number of people who will become born-again before that day?

It will happen to all Christians (born again believers) who have ever lived. The dead first and then the ones who are still living when it happens.

Ok, follow-up question: Do you believe the souls of the dead have the opportunity to accept Jesus as their personal savior after death but before the Rapture? That is, do you consider corporeal death to be less strict as a salvation deadline than the final hour itself?

[cap'n queasy]

Rozzlapeed wrote: John wrote: Quote: You say, "we believe [it will] happen to us." Who are you referring to when you say, "us"? Do you mean all the born-again Christians who are alive today? Or do you mean all the born-again Christians alive today, minus the number of Christians who will die before that day, plus the number of people who will become born-again before that day?

It will happen to all Christians (born again believers) who have ever lived. The dead first and then the ones who are still living when it happens.

Ok, follow-up question: Do you believe the souls of the dead have the opportunity to accept Jesus as their personal savior after death but before the Rapture? That is, do you consider corporeal death to be less strict as a salvation deadline than the final hour itself?

I suppose it is possible, but that is something that we don't know. Perhaps if they never had a chance to hear the good news.

But I don't see any reason for this to be the case for someone who has heard it and rejected it their entire life.

The sheep know the sound of their masters voice.

[sparsely]

The Kingdom is already here.

[cap'n queasy]

When Y'shua said the Kingdom is your midst, He was talking about Himself standing right there, in their midst.

And when He returns the Kingdom will be in our midst again. A kingdom is not much without it's King.

Quote: Luke 17:22 And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 "They will say to you, `Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24 "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. 25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. 32 "Remember Lot's wife. 33 "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left." 37 And answering they said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

[John]

Rozzlapeed wrote: John wrote: Quote: You say, "we believe [it will] happen to us." Who are you referring to when you say, "us"? Do you mean all the born-again Christians who are alive today? Or do you mean all the born-again Christians alive today, minus the number of Christians who will die before that day, plus the number of people who will become born-again before that day?

It will happen to all Christians (born again believers) who have ever lived. The dead first and then the ones who are still living when it happens.

Ok, follow-up question: Do you believe the souls of the dead have the opportunity to accept Jesus as their personal savior after death but before the Rapture? That is, do you consider corporeal death to be less strict as a salvation deadline than the final hour itself?

I personally don't think there will be a chance after you die. I base this mainly on the event that Jesus told of the beggar and the rich man (Lazarus).

I believe that the believer that dies will experince the "rapture" instantly...although there had been a passing of time from our point of view.

[John]

Quote: When Y'shua said the Kingdom is your midst, He was talking about Himself standing right there, in their midst.



Exactly! :-D

[cap'n queasy]

John wrote: Rozzlapeed wrote: John wrote: Quote: You say, "we believe [it will] happen to us." Who are you referring to when you say, "us"? Do you mean all the born-again Christians who are alive today? Or do you mean all the born-again Christians alive today, minus the number of Christians who will die before that day, plus the number of people who will become born-again before that day?

It will happen to all Christians (born again believers) who have ever lived. The dead first and then the ones who are still living when it happens.

Ok, follow-up question: Do you believe the souls of the dead have the opportunity to accept Jesus as their personal savior after death but before the Rapture? That is, do you consider corporeal death to be less strict as a salvation deadline than the final hour itself?

I personally don't think there will be a chance after you die. I base this mainly on the event that Jesus told of the beggar and the rich man (Lazarus).

I believe that the believer that dies will experince the "rapture" instantly...although there had been a passing of time from our point of view.

That is my belief, as well.

[Rozzlapeed]

cap'n queasy wrote: Rozzlapeed wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If some reliable authority told you that you will either die or witness the rapture on Saturday, would you do anything different to prepare for the weekend, depending on which event you think is more likely to occur?

The thing is, a reliable authority told us that we aren't going to know when it is going to happen, and so should be doing things differently all along, anyway.

What I'm asking is, when you picture your last day on Earth, what do you see? Do you see yourself witnessing the end of the world, or do you see yourself dying in some manner? Do you think this mental impression affects how you go about preparing for the end?

Well, I believe if I live until the Rapture happens, this will happen.

Quote: 1 Thess 3:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


See where it says the living will be "caught up"?

If this was written in Latin that would read "rapturo" or if it was in Greek it would read "harpazo".

And right after that it say "therefore comfort each other with these words".

That is why we talk about this. It's a scriptural commandment to do so.

That may be why you, specifically, talk about it, but there seem to be a large number of different motivations among Christians regarding belief in the Rapture.

Besides those motives related to straight-forward faith, I have also picked up on a couple other driving emotions:

3. Delusions of Grandeur: That is, an overwhelming desire to be part of an event of universal significance. This seems to me to be the greatest attraction for those people who are single and have either an average or unsatisfying job, or an average or unsatisfying social life. They are often depressed by their seemingly insignificant lives and irrationally focus on a Rapture-related fantasy where they see themselves taken up in glory to the awed expressions of their family members and acquaintences who have been left behind. I call this a fantasy rather than a possible reality, because they have deluded themselves into thinking that they have already been saved, and in fact, they really have little faith in anything, and are only driven by a selfish desire to be singled out as a better person than their peers. Their death, however, is probably viewed in a similar way, in that they entertain visions of some glorious mode of passing, like sacrificing their life to save someone else, or some other act of bravery.

4. Political Expediency: Evangelical Christians, like any other social demographic, have some goals and ideals that coincide with those of other political interest groups. Because of this, it may be beneficial to some for Christians to focus on the more unifying elements of the religion, like the image of all Christians being taken up together at the same time, which lends itself to issues that benefit from themes like conformity and good vs. evil, instead of focusing on the more depressing realities of Christian life, such as pain and death which are more appropriate for issues involving personal responsibility and empathy for the less-fortunate.

Granted, the ideas I have brought up are of the more cynical variety, but I do think they exist within some parts of the Christian community, and that they deserve some discussion.

[sLiPpY]

Rozzlapeed wrote: I've been doing some thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that the ultimate moral imperative of the book of Revelation is for you to get your spiritual affairs in order sooner rather than later, because you don't know how long you're going to have to do it.

I've also come to the conclusion that this message is not unique among the other books in the Bible, nor is it something that any Christian could not have come up with on their own, since every person will meet their fate at one point or another, most likely with very little warning.

Therefore, if you are a Christian, does it really make a difference if you believe that your own personal deadline for salvation is much more likely to arrive with the front-end of an oncoming semi than it is to arrive alongside some incredible cosmic spectacle?

No, it doesn't matter. You don't know when the Rapture will occur, and you don't know the day and time of your death. If both the Bible and statistical analyses of thousands of years of human history are to be believed, it is possible that either might occur tomorrow.

Why, then, is the Rapture such a pressing issue for modern evangelists? In my opinion, it is very likely that all the people alive today will die before the Second Coming. Why attempt to persuade people with such an unfathomable and unlikely event as the Apocalypse, when there are so many real-world examples of sudden death that can more tangibly demonstrate the shortness of our lives on Earth? What makes the Rapture so appealing to Evangelical Christians?

I've come up with some hypotheses to explain this fascination with the end-times:

1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I've got some more, but I don't have the energy to keep typing right now.

Also, I may come off as sarcastic, but that's just my style. I do consider this a reasonable topic for rational debate, and a thorough discussion might include some interesting thoughts about morality and human nature.

What are your thoughts?

:think: It fills the collection plates.

[sparsely]

John wrote: Quote: When Y'shua said the Kingdom is your midst, He was talking about Himself standing right there, in their midst.



Exactly! :-D

almost, but not quite.
midst=mist=cloud=?