Political Crossfire Forums

[Plato & Socrates]

Strange as it may sound, I find myself defending and questioning long held views on what I believed constituted a Palestinian Arab. When I am confused I tend to frown, and this facial expression as been displayed on my face every time this question has wandered into my brain today.

For a long time now on the Middle East forum, a disturbing trend as been appearing. It is a view point widely held by my political adversaries, that the is no such thing as "Palestinian Arab"
Because I don't profess to know it all and with frown on my face, I began to question my mental health? Has my normal everyday cognitive process flown out of the window and been residing in Cloud Cuckoo Land?

Still shaking my head with frown and stunned like if somebody of 26yrs of age was told, sorry son but your adopted. I was in disbelief of being told this.....

Duchifas wrote: "Area" is right. Arabs had no concept of being Palestinian Arabs. It's a relatively recent invention intended for Western consumption. When it comes down to it, Palestinian Arabs are just that - Arabs.

And when caught a bit off guard, they even acknowledge it themselves:

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57175

In their mentality, they consider themselves "similar to the atom."

So stop propagating the myth of Palestinians. It is intellectually dishonest and has very little basis in history.

Have I been Duped? I readily acknowledge that the world propagates the myth of Santa Clause & the Tooth Fairy, I'll freely admit this, because even my mum was in on that one. But the Palestinians? [b]
"No, it cant be " I said. I've been defending a group of oppressed people who are'nt in fact Palestinians?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine www.palestine-un.org/info/frindex.html

Where do you come from? is a simple enough question. For the Palestinians I have met, they have an innate understanding of where they originate from. Most people I know, know where they are from and have an attachment to the place.
This pathetic attempt by some to dissociate the Palestinian Arabs there today as having come from somewhere else, including propagating the myth that the Palestinian Arab is a modern construct & entity need serious help.

Maybe the Palestinian does'nt exist and never did? Maybe the Norse god Odin was a Rastafarian, it is just possible.
The point of this post is this. The second you start entertaining the notion that there is no such thing as Palestinian and that the Palestinian is a modern concept. You should be certified!

[Duchifas]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Because I don't profess to know it all and with frown on my face, I began to question my mental health? Has my normal everyday cognitive process flown out of the window and been residing in Cloud Cuckoo Land?

Finally! You are out of denial! Right on, bro! :lol:

Quote: Have I been Duped? I readily acknowledge that the world propagates the myth of Santa Clause & the Tooth Fairy, I'll freely admit this, because even my mum was in on that one. But the Palestinians? "No, it cant be " I said. I've been defending a group of oppressed people who are'nt in fact Palestinians?

Well, P & S, in all honesty, you didn't hear it from me. Muslima, our resident and virtuaous Arab lady, freely admitted that Arabs are similar to the atom. I was a bit as shocked as you were at this frank admission and asked her to clarify whether that included the Palestinians (this super independent nation that so deserves a state of its own). She said yes.

That's not me talking, that's an Arab talking. For once, honestly. Go read yourself, I provided the link.

Face it, P & S, for all intents and purposes, Palestinians Arabs are similar to the atom to the other Arabs, and are perceived as such in the Arab world.

Of course, that's where the problem kicks in. See, if Palestinian Arabs are just....Arabs, then what's the basis for them having an independent state of their own? After all, Arabs already have plenty states of their own. There is no moral or logical justification for another Arab state at the expense of the one and only Jewish state.

And thus, solely for Western consumption, the myth of an independent Palestinian nation was born and perpetuated. You see, P & S, if Palestinians are (ahem, ahem) not really like other Arabs, if they are different and independent, then surely they deserve a state of their own.

Sadly the myth has worked charmingly on the propaganda front, duping naive Westerners like you. And it's been duping you so well for so long, that even when Arabs like Muslima clearly acknowledge that Palestinian Arabs are "similar to the atom" to other Arabs, you will still not reject your myth.

Frankly, you still believing in that myth is not much different than you believing in Santa Claus, at your advanced age. To be honest, it's quite baffling.

[Ellron]

Duchifas wrote: Plato & Socrates wrote: Because I don't profess to know it all and with frown on my face, I began to question my mental health? Has my normal everyday cognitive process flown out of the window and been residing in Cloud Cuckoo Land?

Finally! You are out of denial! Right on, bro! :lol:

Quote: Have I been Duped? I readily acknowledge that the world propagates the myth of Santa Clause & the Tooth Fairy, I'll freely admit this, because even my mum was in on that one. But the Palestinians? "No, it cant be " I said. I've been defending a group of oppressed people who are'nt in fact Palestinians?

Well, P & S, in all honesty, you didn't hear it from me. Muslima, our resident and virtuaous Arab lady, freely admitted that Arabs are similar to the atom. I was a bit as shocked as you were at this frank admission and asked her to clarify whether that included the Palestinians (this super independent nation that so deserves a state of its own). She said yes.

That's not me talking, that's an Arab talking. For once, honestly. Go read yourself, I provided the link.

Face it, P & S, for all intents and purposes, Palestinians Arabs are similar to the atom to the other Arabs, and are perceived as such in the Arab world.

Of course, that's where the problem kicks in. See, if Palestinian Arabs are just....Arabs, then what's the basis for them having an independent state of their own? After all, Arabs already have plenty states of their own. There is no moral or logical justification for another Arab state at the expense of the one and only Jewish state.

And thus, solely for Western consumption, the myth of an independent Palestinian nation was born and perpetuated. You see, P & S, if Palestinians are (ahem, ahem) not really like other Arabs, if they are different and independent, then surely they deserve a state of their own.

Sadly the myth has worked charmingly on the propaganda front, duping naive Westerners like you. And it's been duping you so well for so long, that even when Arabs like Muslima clearly acknowledge that Palestinian Arabs are "similar to the atom" to other Arabs, you will still not reject your myth.

Frankly, you still believing in that myth is not much different than you believing in Santa Claus, at your advanced age. To be honest, it's quite baffling.

OOOOo i get it..

Soo ALL ARABS ARE THE SAME? I SEE THE LIGHT!!!

YES YES.. FRENCH ARE THE Same AS English.. OMG East Europe should just make one giant country Since there all WHITE... OMg I get it now.


Pllllzzzz.............

People get attached to their ancestral land and fight for it.

[Duchifas]

Ellron wrote: OOOo i get it..

Soo ALL ARABS ARE THE SAME? I SEE THE LIGHT!!!

Actually, if you open up the link provided above, the Arabs view themselves as "similar to the atom." That's not my characterization, that's one made by an Arab, living in the Middle East.

Why don't you go argue with her how they are all different.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: People get attached to their ancestral land and fight for it.




Then they should fighting for Saudi Arabia, which is their ancestral land.

[mr_happy]

the only thing that makes a Palestinian arab a palestinian arab is a general lack of respect from other arabs. Egypt, jordan, Lebanon, Syria all refuse to take in large amounts of palestinian refugees, and Syria uses vocational laws to make them an effective slave labor class. The Palestinian arab idea was devised by middle eastern leaders so that they had a reason to treat such a group of people so badly.

Kuwait also has fun with the classification, which they used to expel all arabs that they don't like.

[Nico]

The Palestinian is as real as the Israeli. Where you are born is your home, and the Israelis have stood on this for 60 years, so this applies to those born palestinian. it's funny watching people try to void the palestinian identity by tripping over their own logic because there are equal terms for the validity of each.
I show people a census of 1928 palestine where the muslim palestinian population is 600000 and the Jewish Palestinian population is 80 thousand [the same as the palestinian christian population] and people will bend over backwards to validate only the portion that applies to them, laughable.

Face it, the only reason people want them to be a construct [or some 1.5 million constructs] is because it soils their own ideological view of what they want, not of what there is. It is for me the epitome of intellectual dishonesty, and frankly tragic to watch.

[mr_happy]

The issue at stake isnt whether there are arabs in palestine. The issue is whether the arabs in palestine are different in any major way from the arabs in jordan or syria or lebanon. Your post has no rationale answer to this question.

[cap'n queasy]

Nico wrote: The Palestinian is as real as the Israeli. Where you are born is your home, and the Israelis have stood on this for 60 years, so this applies to those born palestinian. it's funny watching people try to void the palestinian identity by tripping over their own logic because there are equal terms for the validity of each.
I show people a census of 1928 palestine where the muslim palestinian population is 600000 and the Jewish Palestinian population is 80 thousand [the same as the palestinian christian population] and people will bend over backwards to validate only the portion that applies to them, laughable.

Face it, the only reason people want them to be a construct [or some 1.5 million constructs] is because it soils their own ideological view of what they want, not of what there is. It is for me the epitome of intellectual dishonesty, and frankly tragic to watch.

How does that fit in with the idea that the white man stole all the areas that white people have colonised?

How come if an Arab colonises an area it's somehow their ancestral land, but if a Caucausian colonizes an area they are white devils?

Personally I am fine with them living there if they do not attack the other inhabitants. But since this is not the case, I hardly see any reason to feel sorry for them when their attacks are responded to in kind.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I show people a census of 1928 palestine where the muslim palestinian population is 600000 and the Jewish Palestinian population is 80 thousand

Let's see it.

Because any population reports of the area now called Israel I have seen in that time period say something different.

In fact, the Arabic proportion of the population in that particular area is about the same now as it was then.

[Nico]

mr_happy wrote: The issue at stake isnt whether there are arabs in palestine. The issue is whether the arabs in palestine are different in any major way from the arabs in jordan or syria or lebanon. Your post has no rationale answer to this question.

yeah, it was a mild rant. Palestinian traditional dress differs from that of other arab regions. it shares much with cypriot/syrian culture believe it or not. genetically palestinian arabs share a very rare gene marker with two select groups, levantine arabs and ashkenazi jews.




ed: http://www.jews-for-allah.org/history-of-love/Jews-Arabs-genetic-brothers.htm

ed2 : http://www.palestineheritage.org/aramco_world_march_april_1997_2.htm

"The war of 1967 aggravated the process, explain the Munayyers. “With each war, with each new wave of refugees from new places, you would see new kinds of dresses being sold,” says Hanan. “The refugees would sell them secretly, because such a sale was considered a shame.""

[Nico]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I show people a census of 1928 palestine where the muslim palestinian population is 600000 and the Jewish Palestinian population is 80 thousand

Let's see it.

Because any population reports of the area now called Israel I have seen in that time period say something different.

In fact, the Arabic proportion of the population in that particular area is about the same now as it was then.


eh oop, there y'go. Note the separation from the syrian territories also.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/a682cabf739febaa052565e8006d907c!OpenDocument



i really like this part:

During the year, the organization of the Palestine Gendarmerie forces was completed, the British section of the Gendarmerie having a strength of 762, and the Native Section of the Gendarmerie, a mixed force of Arabs, Jews, Druzes, and Circassians, a strength of 467 of all ranks.
mmm, co-operation.

[cap'n queasy]

Nico wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I show people a census of 1928 palestine where the muslim palestinian population is 600000 and the Jewish Palestinian population is 80 thousand

Let's see it.

Because any population reports of the area now called Israel I have seen in that time period say something different.

In fact, the Arabic proportion of the population in that particular area is about the same now as it was then.


eh oop, there y'go. Note the separation from the syrian territories also.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/db942872b9eae454852560f6005a76fb/a682cabf739febaa052565e8006d907c!OpenDocument

What you aren't telling people that is the population of the entire area, including what is now Jordan.

Let's see one now that is limited to the area that is now Israel. Which is where the 80,000 Jews lived.

[Nico]

cap'n queasy wrote: [

What you aren't telling people that is the population of the entire area, including what is now Jordan.

Let's see one now that is limited to the area that is now Israel. Which is where the 80,000 Jews lived.

This is the first scientific census conducted in Palestine, and the distribution isn't show, either for Jewish or moslem populations. Known centres for palestinian moslems are however Jaffa near where tel Aviv would be, and Jerusalem.


http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm

It was the largest Arab city in Palestine and, under the U.N. Partition Plan, was to have been part of a Palestinian state.

[cap'n queasy]

Nico wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: [

What you aren't telling people that is the population of the entire area, including what is now Jordan.

Let's see one now that is limited to the area that is now Israel. Which is where the 80,000 Jews lived.

This is the first scientific census conducted in Palestine, and the distribution isn't show, either for Jewish or moslem populations. Known centres for palestinian moslems are however Jaffa near where tel Aviv would be, and Jerusalem.


http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm

It was the largest Arab city in Palestine and, under the U.N. Partition Plan, was to have been part of a Palestinian state.

Jaffa and Haifa have the same proportion of Arabic folks today as they did prior to 1922, which is when this report was compiled. This is to say, they are Arabic majorities to this day. Although the majority in Jaffa is slight, this reflects the pre 1920 character of the population, which was largely heterogenous.

And the Arabic proportion in Jaffa in 1922 is heavily weighted to the Arabs because between 1917 and 1920 there were thousands of Jews in Jaffa, but in 1921-22 the Arabs ran the thousands of Jews that lived there out during a wave of anti-semitic pograms that began with a May Day celebration that became a riot, these folks settled in Tel Aviv.

There was another wave of unrest that occurred in 36-39.

[Nico]

cap'n queasy wrote: Nico wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: [

What you aren't telling people that is the population of the entire area, including what is now Jordan.

Let's see one now that is limited to the area that is now Israel. Which is where the 80,000 Jews lived.

This is the first scientific census conducted in Palestine, and the distribution isn't show, either for Jewish or moslem populations. Known centres for palestinian moslems are however Jaffa near where tel Aviv would be, and Jerusalem.


http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm

It was the largest Arab city in Palestine and, under the U.N. Partition Plan, was to have been part of a Palestinian state.

Jaffa and Haifa have the same proportion of Arabic folks today as they did prior to 1922, which is when this report was compiled. This is to say, they are Arabic majorities to this day.

And the Arabic proportion in Jaffa in 1922 is heavily weighted to the Arabs because between 1917 and 1920 there were thousands of Jews in Jaffa, but in 1921-22 the Arabs ran the thousands of Jews that lived there out during a wave of anti-semitric pograms that began with a May Day celebration that became a riot, these folks settled in Tel Aviv.

There was another wave of unrest that occurred in 36-39.

True to an extent, but it doesn't change the regional distribution as tel-aviv, which palestinian arab labour also helped build, was close by.

Interestingly enough the may day riots started as an inter jewish issue. Anti-semitic pogrom is a misnomer as the arabs were semitic also. I would call it rioting sparked by pressures around illegal immigration for historical accuracy.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: True to an extent, but it doesn't change the regional distribution as tel-aviv

No. It is true. And how is it that the dispersal of thousand of Jews from their homes in Jaffa to Tel Aviv doesn't change the regional distribution?

That is exactly what it does.



Quote: Interestingly enough the may day riots started as an inter jewish issue. Anti-semitic pogrom is a misnomer as the arabs were semitic also. I would call it rioting sparked by pressures around illegal immigration for historical accuracy.

No, that is not true. And the term anti-semitism is recognized to mean racism targeting Jews. Semantic arguments do not change the facts, not will I allow them to once again divert the focus from the facts.

The facts are as follows.

Prior to 1921 the population of Jaffa was heterogeneous, that is to say consisting of diverse elements. Thousands of Jews lived there.

Anti-Jewish rioting began a wave of attacks on Jews causing them to flee and settle in near by Tel Aviv. By 1922 no Jews lived there any more because to do so would have meant death. To try and blame this on the Jews of Jaffa themselves is ludicrous

So your census report not mean what you imply, it is an attempt to twist the facts into a form that either suits an anti-semitic bias or is possibly a honest mistake. Which this may be I don't know for sure, but what I do know is that people who generally try to argue that the term anti-semitic is a misnomer generally do this to weight any argument in their favor by eliminating an accurate description of these types of activities.

I sincerely hope this is not true in your case, as racist bias does not suit the role of moderator in a political forum.

Good day, sir.

[Nico]

my anti-semitic bias? be careful how you use a phrase like that. Aside from the fact I have Jewish blood, I have issue with Israel's conduct with respect to the Palestinian people and the type of false histories that get passed off as fact, ie "palestinians don't exist", which I consider a most insidious racism on par with what the Jews themselves have been subject to over the years.
Your prepositions try to etch out a superior claim for the immigrants over the people who were there, yet even if you divide the census population of moslems in 1922 palestine by a factor of 6 times, they still outnumber the jewish component by 20,000. I have presented documents, and you have presented awkward and circular conjecture. Consider that jaffa was regarded as a very conservative city by the British, and regardless that the massacres were unforgivable, it was the mass influx of foreigners and the attempt by some of them to bring communist literature and ideology to the old world that helped fire events. In the end the number of dead on each side was not dissimilar.

The Palestinian arab was a person born in the region, which is the premise of the argument. Their genetics and traditions are unique in as much as village culture is always insular. Nothing alters that reality.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: and the type of false histories that get passed off as fact

You're the one trying to pass of a false history. Nico.

Quote: I have presented documents

A document which does not show what you say it does,
The area that is today Israel did not even contain 800,000 people in 1928.
So how did 800,000 Arabs live there?

Quote: it was the mass influx of foreigners and the attempt by some of them to bring communist literature and ideology to the old world that helped fire events. In the end the number of dead on each side was not dissimilar.


The death toll (which was 48 Jews killed by Arabs, and 47 Arabs killed by the police) is irrelevant, it has doesn't change the fact that it was the Jews who were dispelled in the thousands from Jaffa prior to 1928, which is what shoots your premise that Jaffa was a town that was all Arabic down.

So what you are saying is the Arabs decided to dispel the thousands of Jews that had been living in Jaffa for millenia because they were distributing communist literature in Europe? I don't think so.

What caused this rioting and the ensuing pogrom against the Jews living there was that the Arabs living in Jaffa, and the rest of what was soon to become Israel restored, wanted Jaffa to become part of Syria. The rioting started in Jeusalem and spread to Jaffa.

The accusation that massive immigration caused this is also non-factual as the opening of Palestine to Jewish immigration did not begin until 1920.

Ten thousands jews did not immigrate into Israel in the first months. The actual number may have been a hundred or so at this point in time.

Immigration into Israel was slight until the 1930's.

The fact is the population in the area which became Israel was around 80% Jewish and about 20% Arabic, a proportion that is the same now as it was then. The population of the area was just over 100,000 with 80,000 being Jewish.

Israel is less than a quarter of the territory of the area the census you showed encompassed.

There were no 800,000 Arabs in Israel. That is how many were in the entire area of the British Mandate.

[Nico]

Whatever you say queasy, now just post your links.