Political Crossfire Forums

[DSwain]

Showboat wrote: bob.appleyard wrote: DSwain wrote: Well if we conducted policy on the basis of how many bombs are going off, then we'd have left Northern Ireland a long time ago. The job of government is to conduct what it feels to be the right policy and then to employ police and intelligence services to combat those who violently disagree. Those who wish to make legal and peaceful protest have lots of opportunity. The July 7th bombers were criminals and murderers, not misunderstood youth or trenchant political commentators.

It's not to misrepresent the terror attacks as an "assault on our way of life," however. The actions of these terrorists are cowardly and disgusting, just like those of the IRA. To pretend that the bombings would have been perpetrated had we not participated in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq is lunacy, though Blair continues to do so.

He also insists on it being a problem for the "Muslim community" to sort out on its own, when he is as responsible for its occurence.

I do remember participating in the largest peaceful disagreement (both in terms of numbers and in terms of proportion) this country has ever seen, before the invasion took place. This act was totally inneffective in curbing their rush to war.

Blair went to war because it gives him a bigger chapter in the future's history books. Quite simply he's a cnut. And now he's blaiming everyone else for the backlash because he's a cnut. Blair loves sucking up to America because it makes him feel more important and because of that he's a cnut. Although we live in a democracy Blair will go against the will of the people because he thinks we are incapable of knowing what's good for us and he knows better, that makes him a cnut.

Oh and did I mention he's a cnut?

What a clever boy.

[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: AKAMad wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: AKAMad wrote: Lucky Luke wrote:
The governments at the time never claimed that the IRA wanted to take over the way we live or blamed the Catholic church, the Catholic faith and the Catholic community each time a bomb went off.

:-D
:-D

That it not quite true, remember Ireland in the 1960s & 70s wasn't as secular as it now.

I was talking about the Muslim community in Britain to be compared to the Catholic community in Britain, not abroad AKAMad.

Pakistan isn't secular.

:-D
:-D

That was because the IRA didn't go to Church, they knew their position on blowing up children, and so did the English.

The Irish experience is the reason why Britain is the best 'white' country in the World to be a Muslim.

The IRA did go to church to hide their weapons and yet nobody blamed the church, the faith or the community.

The UK is not secular, I wish for Scotland to be.
:-D
:-D

Sources for that Luke? IRA hiding weapons in Catholic churches? Can't remember that at any time during the Troubles. I'm open to be corrected however.

[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:

Sources for that Luke? IRA hiding weapons in Catholic churches? Can't remember that at any time during the Troubles. I'm open to be corrected however.

You are right I recall weapons found in a school yard and other in a graveyard but I don't recall any found in churches. However I don't recall any searches of churches for weapons either.

Quote: Police are continuing to question seven men arrested during a raid on a London mosque.
A stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister were among the items seized during the raid at the North London Central Mosque in Finsbury Park early on Monday morning.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2678735.stm

:-D
:-D

[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:

Sources for that Luke? IRA hiding weapons in Catholic churches? Can't remember that at any time during the Troubles. I'm open to be corrected however.

You are right I recall weapons found in a school yard and other in a graveyard but I don't recall any found in churches. However I don't recall any searches of churches for weapons either.

Quote: Police are continuing to question seven men arrested during a raid on a London mosque.
A stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister were among the items seized during the raid at the North London Central Mosque in Finsbury Park early on Monday morning.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2678735.stm

:-D
:-D

Yes I think I remember the graveyard find(s) as well.

That would be intelligence led policing - clearly effective in uncovering this arms cache at the Finsbury Park mosque. Without intel suggesting the presence of weaponry the police would have no reason to search a church - unless you're suggesting that the police should search all places of worship as a matter of course? Hardly indusive to good community relations.

[Showboat]

DSwain wrote: Showboat wrote: bob.appleyard wrote: DSwain wrote: Well if we conducted policy on the basis of how many bombs are going off, then we'd have left Northern Ireland a long time ago. The job of government is to conduct what it feels to be the right policy and then to employ police and intelligence services to combat those who violently disagree. Those who wish to make legal and peaceful protest have lots of opportunity. The July 7th bombers were criminals and murderers, not misunderstood youth or trenchant political commentators.

It's not to misrepresent the terror attacks as an "assault on our way of life," however. The actions of these terrorists are cowardly and disgusting, just like those of the IRA. To pretend that the bombings would have been perpetrated had we not participated in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq is lunacy, though Blair continues to do so.

He also insists on it being a problem for the "Muslim community" to sort out on its own, when he is as responsible for its occurence.

I do remember participating in the largest peaceful disagreement (both in terms of numbers and in terms of proportion) this country has ever seen, before the invasion took place. This act was totally inneffective in curbing their rush to war.

Blair went to war because it gives him a bigger chapter in the future's history books. Quite simply he's a cnut. And now he's blaiming everyone else for the backlash because he's a cnut. Blair loves sucking up to America because it makes him feel more important and because of that he's a cnut. Although we live in a democracy Blair will go against the will of the people because he thinks we are incapable of knowing what's good for us and he knows better, that makes him a cnut.

Oh and did I mention he's a cnut?

What a clever boy.

So do you actually dispute anything I said? Or just like to make sarcastic comments.

A) Blair want's his place in history and will do whatever to get it. Like acting like a Head of State.

B) He's blaming others for terrorism on British soil and refusing to acknowledge his actions probably caused it.

C) He gets off on going to the White House, hanging around with Bush and addressing the US senate.

D) At heart he thinks he knows what's good for us better than we do and will act against the will of the country.

E) He's a ****.

[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:

Yes I think I remember the graveyard find(s) as well.

That would be intelligence led policing - clearly effective in uncovering this arms cache at the Finsbury Park mosque. Without intel suggesting the presence of weaponry the police would have no reason to search a church - unless you're suggesting that the police should search all places of worship as a matter of course? Hardly indusive to good community relations.

A stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister!

:-D
:-D

[DSwain]

Quote:

A) Blair want's his place in history and will do whatever to get it. Like acting like a Head of State.


Tony Blair did not involve the UK in the invasion of Iraq as a means to getting into the history books but because Saddam was in breach of several UN resolutions on WMD inspections and Iraq had breached the 1991 ceasefire agreement. I'm not a fan of Tony Blair but I respect him for this decision. His place in the history books would have been much safer if he'd done nothing and had simply been the man remembered for changing the whole shape of British politics in the 1990s, being the longest serving Labour Prime Minister, having the largest parliamentary majority in a generation, presiding over the longest period of uninterrupted economic growth in 200 years etc etc.


Quote:
B) He's blaming others for terrorism on British soil and refusing to acknowledge his actions probably caused it.


No - Tony Blair's actions did not cause terror attacks. Criminal young men with explosive devices in their backpacks did that. No country that lives under the rule of law conducts its policy to placate criminals and potential criminals. Do you think we should?


Quote:
C) He gets off on going to the White House, hanging around with Bush and addressing the US senate.


He 'gets off'? Heads of state and prime minsters visit each other - where's the problem? The US is our greatest ally and I consider it an honour that my Prime Minister is asked to address the Joint Houses. Maybe you'd rather he spat at them?


Quote:
D) At heart he thinks he knows what's good for us better than we do and will act against the will of the country.


Of course he thinks he knows what's good for the country just like every person who's ever stood for parish council does. Doesn't mean he's right and the UK electorate has the opportunity to tell him that they disagree with him. And what does that mean - 'against the will of the country'? We elect governments to govern not merely to preside over rule by referendum. Outside of those matters that impact on the very fabric of the country let's leave out the referendums. If the British people want to thrown the bum out, they will.

Quote:
E) He's a ****.

Personally I gave up throwing out 4 letter words as a substitute for intelligent argument when I left the playground. Try it.

[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:

Yes I think I remember the graveyard find(s) as well.

That would be intelligence led policing - clearly effective in uncovering this arms cache at the Finsbury Park mosque. Without intel suggesting the presence of weaponry the police would have no reason to search a church - unless you're suggesting that the police should search all places of worship as a matter of course? Hardly indusive to good community relations.

A stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister!

:-D
:-D

It's illegal to hold two of those items in the UK. You do agree that the police should uphold the law?

[Boneman]

DSwain wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:

Yes I think I remember the graveyard find(s) as well.

That would be intelligence led policing - clearly effective in uncovering this arms cache at the Finsbury Park mosque. Without intel suggesting the presence of weaponry the police would have no reason to search a church - unless you're suggesting that the police should search all places of worship as a matter of course? Hardly indusive to good community relations.

A stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister!

:-D
:-D

It's illegal to hold two of those items in the UK. You do agree that the police should uphold the law?
I don't think it could be argued that the police were right to sieze the "weapons", its just that they make it seem as though theyve just busted a major weapons cache. None of those things could kill someone, unless you were a 90 year old, nor could they be modified to kill someone (easily).
I remember seeing an article in the paper about a police raid on a mosque somewhere, and the headline was to the effect of "firearms seized in london mosque". It then went on to say that the firearms were in actual fact replicas that could be converted into real weapons. They had a policeman holding them up in a photo; they were bright orange plastic BB guns, available for about a fiver at any market in the country. They could not possibly be converted, and the police were blatantly trying to make it look as though they were actually recovering weapons, when they were actually doing nothing of the sort.

[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:

It's illegal to hold two of those items in the UK. You do agree that the police should uphold the law?

There is no need for a raid involving helicopters, dozens of police vans and 150 officers to recover a stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister DSwain.

:-D
:-D

[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:

It's illegal to hold two of those items in the UK. You do agree that the police should uphold the law?

There is no need for a raid involving helicopters, dozens of police vans and 150 officers to recover a stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister DSwain.

:-D
:-D

The Finsbury Park Mosque is hostile territory - and if you've spent any time around there you will know precisely what I mean. You can't send a panda car and a couple of officers in to do a search - you have to have overwhelming force so any possible opposition is deterred. That way you avoid disruption and violence.

[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:
The Finsbury Park Mosque is hostile territory - and if you've spent any time around there you will know precisely what I mean. You can't send a panda car and a couple of officers in to do a search - you have to have overwhelming force so any possible opposition is deterred. That way you avoid disruption and violence.

Againt a stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister?

:-D
:-D

[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:
The Finsbury Park Mosque is hostile territory - and if you've spent any time around there you will know precisely what I mean. You can't send a panda car and a couple of officers in to do a search - you have to have overwhelming force so any possible opposition is deterred. That way you avoid disruption and violence.

Againt a stun gun, blank-firing replica firearm and CS gas canister?

:-D
:-D

Yes

[bob.appleyard]

Showboat wrote: Blair went to war because it gives him a bigger chapter in the future's history books. Quite simply he's a cnut. And now he's blaiming everyone else for the backlash because he's a cnut. Blair loves sucking up to America because it makes him feel more important and because of that he's a cnut. Although we live in a democracy Blair will go against the will of the people because he thinks we are incapable of knowing what's good for us and he knows better, that makes him a cnut.

Oh and did I mention he's a cnut?

What, so he's sitting on the shore, trying to command the tides?

[thundertaker]

bob.appleyard wrote: Showboat wrote: Blair went to war because it gives him a bigger chapter in the future's history books. Quite simply he's a cnut. And now he's blaiming everyone else for the backlash because he's a cnut. Blair loves sucking up to America because it makes him feel more important and because of that he's a cnut. Although we live in a democracy Blair will go against the will of the people because he thinks we are incapable of knowing what's good for us and he knows better, that makes him a cnut.

Oh and did I mention he's a cnut?

What, so he's sitting on the shore, trying to command the tides?

Huh, King Cnut was a humble king who was trying to demonstrate the limits of his power to the sycophants who surrounded him. Unlike Blair the c*nt........

[Ssushi]

LONDON, England (AP) -- One in six British Muslims believes the London Tube and bus bombers were motivated by a just cause, according to an opinion poll.

Sixteen percent of respondents to the poll conducted ........ felt the July 7 bombers' cause -- although not their actions -- was just.

Thirteen percent said the bombers should be regarded as martyrs, and 7 percent felt suicide attacks on British civilians were justified in some circumstances.

HOw can we be in a position where this sort of opinion is felt withing the country?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/04/uk.muslims.just.ap/index.html

[bob.appleyard]

thundertaker wrote: Huh, King Cnut was a humble king who was trying to demonstrate the limits of his power to the sycophants who surrounded him. Unlike Blair the c*nt........

Yes, I realise that. I was trying to find at least some parallel between Cnut and Blair, which was incredibly difficult at the time.

[Boneman]

Ssushi wrote: LONDON, England (AP) -- One in six British Muslims believes the London Tube and bus bombers were motivated by a just cause, according to an opinion poll.

Sixteen percent of respondents to the poll conducted ........ felt the July 7 bombers' cause -- although not their actions -- was just.

Thirteen percent said the bombers should be regarded as martyrs, and 7 percent felt suicide attacks on British civilians were justified in some circumstances.

HOw can we be in a position where this sort of opinion is felt withing the country?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/04/uk.muslims.just.ap/index.html
Unless it asked Britains several million muslims what tehy thought of the bombing, i really don't see how it can be used as evidence of muslims hating our guts. Opinion polls are pathetically easy to manipulate, one poll means absolutley nothing. I am positive I can go and do a poll which stated that 99% of english people were in fact the queen. And as for your last sentence, its that we allow them to think these things which differentiates britian from whichever middle eastern **** they origonally come from.

[mendosan]

Quote: What did the Catholic community do during the troubles Mendosan and what did we ask them to do, I can't recall.

What was the motivation of the IRA? what were there aims? what were the reasons they comitted there crimes? their motiation wasn't based on a perverted religious ideoligy, they had a political aim (a united Ireland). so you can't compare the two.

[mendosan]

Boneman wrote: Ssushi wrote: LONDON, England (AP) -- One in six British Muslims believes the London Tube and bus bombers were motivated by a just cause, according to an opinion poll.

Sixteen percent of respondents to the poll conducted ........ felt the July 7 bombers' cause -- although not their actions -- was just.

Thirteen percent said the bombers should be regarded as martyrs, and 7 percent felt suicide attacks on British civilians were justified in some circumstances.

HOw can we be in a position where this sort of opinion is felt withing the country?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/04/uk.muslims.just.ap/index.html
Unless it asked Britains several million muslims what tehy thought of the bombing, i really don't see how it can be used as evidence of muslims hating our guts. Opinion polls are pathetically easy to manipulate, one poll means absolutley nothing. I am positive I can go and do a poll which stated that 99% of english people were in fact the queen. And as for your last sentence, its that we allow them to think these things which differentiates britian from whichever middle eastern **** they origonally come from.

He means what have we done and what have they not done for some people to feel that way, you can't just discredit polls if the poll said the opposite thing you would be supporting it, look at the questions asked then point out the bits you think were leading the participant on.