Political Crossfire Forums

[LDS Patriot]

Muslims do not have religious freedom because of the simple fact a male apostate must be executed and female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi who summarizes what he sees as the most likely objections by critics of Islam's death sentence for apostates:

* This idea is against the freedom of conscience. How can it be right to offer an apostate the gallows when he has decided to leave Islam?

* A faith which people maintain because of the fear of death cannot be genuine faith. This faith will be manifestly hypocritically chosen to deceive in order to save one's life.

* If all religions approve of execution for apostasy, it will be difficult not only for Muslims to embrace another religion but also for non-Muslims to embrace Islam.

* It is contradictory to say on one hand "There is no compulsion in religion (Qur'an 2:256)" and "Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve (18:30)", and on the other to threaten to punish by death who renounces Islam and moves to reject Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

FrontPage exaimes this side of Islam in depth at Symposium: Death for Apostasy?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22247

Consider this Wiki "Apostasy in Islam"

Quote: Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


And this from "Apostasy and Human Rights"

Quote: It is clear quite clear that under Islamic Law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical Muslim or modern scholars, and we shall return to the textual evidence for it.

http://www.iheu.org/node/1541

And this excellent essay by Orson Scott Card

Quote: Poor Abdul Rahman. He lived in Germany, where there is freedom of religion. He forgot that freedom of religion only applies to non-Muslims who convert to other faiths. Muslims aren't allowed to follow their individual consciences. If you're born a Muslim, then in your entire life you will never, never have a choice about what religion to belong to.

Because if you convert from Islam to another faith, good Muslims have a right -- no, a duty -- to kill you.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-03-26-1.html

[islandhopper]

LDS Patriot wrote: Muslims do not have religious freedom because of the simple fact a male apostate must be executed and female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

Question: What's the difference between being executed and being put to death?

[Muslima]

O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islâm), Allâh will bring a
people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the
disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allâh, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the
Grace of Allâh which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allâh is AllSufficient for His creatures'
needs, AllKnower. (Al-maidah; 54)

well it seems to me that god doesn't the apostates for his messgae to be spread. thus killing them is not a solution to god.
i recommend you read that you search in the quran and the prophet's sayings before posting.

[Dagger]

Quote:

And this excellent essay by Orson Scott Card Quote:

Off topic. but the man can write. i read all his books.

[liberty12345]

Political freedom and Islam dont mix as can been seen by this map..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Freedom_House_world_map_2005.png

*Link removed by JRM4833 - Posting links to competing political forums is not permited*

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Muslima wrote: O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islâm), Allâh will bring a
people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the
disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allâh, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the
Grace of Allâh which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allâh is AllSufficient for His creatures'
needs, AllKnower. (Al-maidah; 54)

well it seems to me that god doesn't the apostates for his messgae to be spread. thus killing them is not a solution to god.
i recommend you read that you search in the quran and the prophet's sayings before posting.

As with most instances, it is NOT what has been written or handed down by GOD but, the interpretation of that by those who purport to follow that guidance.

As I see it, blame should not be leveled against those who report conduct among a group and equate that conduct with their religion.
It falls squarely upon the shoulders of the adherents of that religion which misinterpret their own religious guidance and pervert it into something man-made.

This is the trouble with non-muslims understanding of Islam.
We tend to speak about the conduct of the Ummah, while Muslims tell us that we should not do such a thing but rather to look at what is written to discover the true nature of Islam.

Clarification should not come about by a proper reading of the text but, by observing the conduct of those who purport to follow a particular path and decide if that path is worthy of adherence by those of us who are not yet followers of this path.

Similar in context is how closely the US Government follows the letter of Our Constitution.
It is a grand Declaration of a proper method of conduct yet, can we say today that the leaders are implementing the Constitution precisely, word for word?

[airo]

Wait, why do members of a religion need religious freedoms?

Being religiously free implies the ability to deviate from a specific religion, and believe what you want to believe. If everyone is Muslim, why do you need religious freedom?

By definition, every religion is against religious freedoms.

You're talking about theocracies, and religious freedoms in said governments. There's a big difference.

[liberty12345]

airo wrote: Wait, why do members of a religion need religious freedoms?

Being religiously free implies the ability to deviate from a specific religion, and believe what you want to believe. If everyone is Muslim, why do you need religious freedom?

By definition, every religion is against religious freedoms.

You're talking about theocracies, and religious freedoms in said governments. There's a big difference.

I dont understand your statement there, i understand how you can this about Islam/Communism but how do other religons such as Christianity, hinduism, Jewduism stop people from choosing what religon or theory they want to believe in.

[Muslima]

richard i know what you mean, and there is a bestseller about this issue by a saudi writer but it is in arabic....

i will try to translate some pages.....

[Demonic Spoon]

I agree with the OP.

Christianity has never, ever been the cause of religious intolerance or murder. Christianity has always perpetuated love and tolerance throughout the world. Every since Islam's inception, everywhere it spread became a regressive hellhole. We must stop this plague before it's too late by converting all the Muslims. The ones who refuse to submit can be rounded up and put into death camps.





...and I find it quite hypocritical of you when you b**** and moan about all the distrust and discrimination against Mormonism, and yet perpetuate the same damn thing against Islam. Congratulations, you have destroyed any point you thought you had.

[airo]

liberty12345 wrote: airo wrote: Wait, why do members of a religion need religious freedoms?

Being religiously free implies the ability to deviate from a specific religion, and believe what you want to believe. If everyone is Muslim, why do you need religious freedom?

By definition, every religion is against religious freedoms.

You're talking about theocracies, and religious freedoms in said governments. There's a big difference.

I dont understand your statement there, i understand how you can this about Islam/Communism but how do other religons such as Christianity, hinduism, Jewduism stop people from choosing what religon or theory they want to believe in.

Communism isn't a religion. It's a political ideology.

Christians are Christian. They don't support Christians who are actually Jews. In that way, they're religiously intolerant.

If you're a Christian, you're expected to be a Christian. If you're a Jew, you're expected to be Jewish. Your religion doesn't need religious freedoms, because you're a member of it.

You're talking about religious freedoms in theocratic states. There's a big difference between THAT, and religious freedoms provided to you by a specific religion, which by all means shouldn't give you any.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

There is NO Democracy in Heaven !

Any person who regards the rules of heaven to be a mandate
upon their conduct while here in the flesh MUST live by this premise.

[Muslima]

Richard, I have tried to translate some paragraphs that seems thoughtful......by the way the book is titled "Politics between Halal (something not prohibited) and Haram (opposite of halal)".


the writer mentions two incidents that shows how behavior should be one is the during the prophet's life and one from this era.

"an arabian man entered the Masjid (mosque) and peed in one of the corners, which made one of the prophet's friends really angry and was were about to shout at him, but the prophet stopped him to not cause fear in the arabian guy. Instead the prophet went to him and showed him that what he did was really wrong and ordered somebody to put sand on the dirty spot."

the other story is
"a young boy went to a prayer in the masjid wearing a t-shirt with some cartoons on it, which is unacceptable. after finishing the prayer one of the religious guys held him by his shirt as if he is his enemy and shouted at him, even though his mistake is not as serious as the above one"

the writer tries to show to the reader that many muslims show that they are religious and stuff, but the one thing that they should be perfect at in the first place is not included in their charcteristics, which is being patient, tolerant, having anger management and so on.

that is why we say look at the texts not at the people.

of course there is more, but first i want to know you response.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Muslima wrote: Richard, I have tried to translate some paragraphs that seems thoughtful......by the way the book is titled "Politics between Halal (something not prohibited) and Haram (opposite of halal)".


the writer mentions two incidents that shows how behavior should be one is the during the prophet's life and one from this era.

"an arabian man entered the Masjid (mosque) and peed in one of the corners, which made one of the prophet's friends really angry and was were about to shout at him, but the prophet stopped him to not cause fear in the arabian guy. Instead the prophet went to him and showed him that what he did was really wrong and ordered somebody to put sand on the dirty spot."

the other story is
"a young boy went to a prayer in the masjid wearing a t-shirt with some cartoons on it, which is unacceptable. after finishing the prayer one of the religious guys held him by his shirt as if he is his enemy and shouted at him, even though his mistake is not as serious as the above one"

the writer tries to show to the reader that many muslims show that they are religious and stuff, but the one thing that they should be perfect at in the first place is not included in their charcteristics, which is being patient, tolerant, having anger management and so on.

that is why we say look at the texts not at the people.

of course there is more, but first i want to know you response.

All Human's are born with the innate understanding of right and wrong behavior.
It is the application or misapplication that causes mischief in the world.
I just recently posted a storytale that I wrote nestled within a thread I began in the Lounge called:
I'm Happy ! Hope you're Happy Too

It deals with such matters, maybe you will enjoy it?

[henrilegrand]

[quote="LDS Patriot"]Muslims do not have religious freedom because of the simple fact a male apostate must be executed and female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi who summarizes what he sees as the most likely objections by critics of Islam's death sentence for apostates:

* This idea is against the freedom of conscience. How can it be right to offer an apostate the gallows when he has decided to leave Islam?

* A faith which people maintain because of the fear of death cannot be genuine faith. This faith will be manifestly hypocritically chosen to deceive in order to save one's life.

* If all religions approve of execution for apostasy, it will be difficult not only for Muslims to embrace another religion but also for non-Muslims to embrace Islam.

* It is contradictory to say on one hand "There is no compulsion in religion (Qur'an 2:256)" and "Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve (18:30)", and on the other to threaten to punish by death who renounces Islam and moves to reject Islam. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam[/url]

FrontPage exaimes this side of Islam in depth at Symposium: Death for Apostasy?

[url]http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22247[/url]

Consider this Wiki "Apostasy in Islam"

[quote]Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam[/url][/quote]


And this from "Apostasy and Human Rights"

[quote]It is clear quite clear that under Islamic Law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical Muslim or modern scholars, and we shall return to the textual evidence for it.

[url]http://www.iheu.org/node/1541[/url][/quote]

And this excellent essay by Orson Scott Card

[quote]Poor Abdul Rahman. He lived in Germany, where there is freedom of religion. He forgot that freedom of religion only applies to non-Muslims who convert to other faiths. Muslims aren't allowed to follow their individual consciences. If you're born a Muslim, then in your entire life you will never, never have a choice about what religion to belong to.

Because if you convert from Islam to another faith, good Muslims have a right -- no, a duty -- to kill you.

[url]http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-03-26-1.html[/url][/quote][/quote]

*****

It maybe true in some muslim countries like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan where only Islam is the sole religion.

Many other "muslim" countries have freedom of religion.

Egypt has Coptic churches and cathedrals for centuries.
Turkey not only has churches, but also synagogues and in Lebanon, in Syria too and even Iraq.

Indonesia has the largest muslim population, 90% (about 200million) but is not a 'pure' muslim country, because it is also home to Christianity, Buddhism and Hiduism, guaranteed in their Constitution, just like the USA.

Tens of thousands of foreigners each year visit the mystical Budhhist shrines Borobudur and Prambanan in Central Java and the beautiful Hindu temples in Bali.
In a small city in Java is a seminary, where young Indonesians are being educated and groomed for the Roman Catholic priesthood.
Indonesia has a Cardinal. All religious holidays including Christmas day and the christian Newyearsday are mandatory. (In the USA only the Christian holidays are mandatory)

Mixed religious marriages are legalized routinely.

There is not one Indonesian apostate, male or female, that has been sentenced to death in the history of Indonesia and never will be.

[SaladFingers]

henrilegrand wrote: LDS Patriot wrote: Muslims do not have religious freedom because of the simple fact a male apostate must be executed and female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi who summarizes what he sees as the most likely objections by critics of Islam's death sentence for apostates:

* This idea is against the freedom of conscience. How can it be right to offer an apostate the gallows when he has decided to leave Islam?

* A faith which people maintain because of the fear of death cannot be genuine faith. This faith will be manifestly hypocritically chosen to deceive in order to save one's life.

* If all religions approve of execution for apostasy, it will be difficult not only for Muslims to embrace another religion but also for non-Muslims to embrace Islam.

* It is contradictory to say on one hand "There is no compulsion in religion (Qur'an 2:256)" and "Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve (18:30)", and on the other to threaten to punish by death who renounces Islam and moves to reject Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

FrontPage exaimes this side of Islam in depth at Symposium: Death for Apostasy?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22247

Consider this Wiki "Apostasy in Islam"

Quote: Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a male apostate must be executed. A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


And this from "Apostasy and Human Rights"

Quote: It is clear quite clear that under Islamic Law an apostate must be put to death. There is no dispute on this ruling among classical Muslim or modern scholars, and we shall return to the textual evidence for it.

http://www.iheu.org/node/1541

And this excellent essay by Orson Scott Card

Quote: Poor Abdul Rahman. He lived in Germany, where there is freedom of religion. He forgot that freedom of religion only applies to non-Muslims who convert to other faiths. Muslims aren't allowed to follow their individual consciences. If you're born a Muslim, then in your entire life you will never, never have a choice about what religion to belong to.

Because if you convert from Islam to another faith, good Muslims have a right -- no, a duty -- to kill you.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-03-26-1.html

*****

It maybe true in some muslim countries like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan where only Islam is the sole religion.

Many other "muslim" countries have freedom of religion.

Egypt has Coptic churches and cathedrals for centuries.
Turkey not only has churches, but also synagogues and in Lebanon, in Syria too and even Iraq.

Indonesia has the largest muslim population, 90% (about 200million) but is not a 'pure' muslim country, because it is also home to Christianity, Buddhism and Hiduism, guaranteed in their Constitution, just like the USA.

Tens of thousands of foreigners each year visit the mystical Budhhist shrines Borobudur and Prambanan in Central Java and the beautiful Hindu temples in Bali.
In a small city in Java is a seminary, where young Indonesians are being educated and groomed for the Roman Catholic priesthood.
Indonesia has a Cardinal. All religious holidays including Christmas day and the christian Newyearsday are mandatory. (In the USA only the Christian holidays are mandatory)

Mixed religious marriages are legalized routinely.

There is not one Indonesian apostate, male or female, that has been sentenced to death in the history of Indonesia and never will be.

Countries of religious intolerance other then Islam Cont... Iraq, Iran, Indonesia still has religious scuffles in which many are engaged by Muslim aggressors.. i.e. the beheaded catholic school girls recently, as well as some reports of arson attacks on buddhist shrines by muslim men with a trek recrod of religiously motivated crimes.

Saudi Arabia, yes I've been here on business trips with Hewlett Packard, I felt very uncomfortable, and unwelcomed in many downtime hubs and cafes. Infact while I was here, the local paper had a joyous article of several apostates having been executed.

So its not just a "few" countries. Please don't belittle it.
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

note here this woman is trying to speak out against Islam in the Middle East region, note how the man asks her if she is a heretic, and then excuses her from the discussion because #1 she is a woman, #2 she is an Arabic atheist.. which is worse then wearing white after labor day.

Remember folks.. actions speak louder then words, and this is the 21st century we are living in.

When more then a chunk of a majority practice what something doesn't preech, its against whatever the text says, and will stain the name of that religion.

[Muslima]

i wonder how everybody on this globe keeps searching for every mistake and action muslims take, while their society and actions are sometimes more immoral and aggressive than the muslims'......

[henrilegrand]

[quote="Muslima"]i wonder how everybody on this globe keeps searching for every mistake and action muslims take, while their society and actions are sometimes more immoral and aggressive than the muslims'......[/quote]

*****

"Modern" Christians convenientlly forget that the French and English have used beheadings too, and burning at the stakes that prolonged the suffering of the victims.

With beheading, you normally can only kill one at a time.

Today we use "precision bombing to pieces" that can kill dozens at one strike. That's why in the first 18 months of the Iraqi war, 100,000 civilians, mostly women and children were killed, that is 185 killings per day. (Combined investigating result of the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and Columbia University as reported by the Lance Paper in London, UK)

The latest estimate is now about 500,000 Iraqi deaths since the invasion, that is about more than 500 killings per day.
http.//www.counterpunch.org/andrew 0192006.html


I guess the muslims will have to work a bit harder to be at least close as good as the christians in killing people.

[FreedomSpeech]

SaladFingers wrote: http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

LOL :-D you guys are really overestimating this viedo to prove your points, I have seen this link in this forum many times to prove points against Islam, as I mentioned in another thread:
I :) wrote:
This woman (wafa sultan) is so so amusing. She claims to know what Islam is though she knows nothing about Islam's commands. Believe me, I had a very good laugh about this video, but my biggest laughs were when those black screens faded in and out cutting the parts when this woman couldn't answer the really hard questions Dr. Faisal al-Qasem asked her. Trust me, don't count on this video excerpts to prove your points, because the full video of this epsiode is used by Muslims to convince people about how peacful Islam is. This woman has definitely lost the argument (if you see the whole episode you would agree me)

[Muslima]

Quote: "Modern" Christians convenientlly forget that the French and English have used beheadings too, and burning at the stakes that prolonged the suffering of the victims.

With beheading, you normally can only kill one at a time.

Today we use "precision bombing to pieces" that can kill dozens at one strike. That's why in the first 18 months of the Iraqi war, 100,000 civilians, mostly women and children were killed, that is 185 killings per day. (Combined investigating result of the Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and Columbia University as reported by the Lance Paper in London, UK)

The latest estimate is now about 500,000 Iraqi deaths since the invasion, that is about more than 500 killings per day.
http.//www.counterpunch.org/andrew 0192006.html


I guess the muslims will have to work a bit harder to be at least close as good as the christians in killing people.

i see no difference between the killings in iraq and between the christain serial killers.