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eynon
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 19724
Location: Minneapolis......
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and God is his Father.
A father and son are parent and child, they are not the same entity, nor do they have the same soul.
God said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is God the Father speaking of His Only Begotten Son. (beget: to father, sire........begotten: offspring - generated by procreation)
This is not some mystical conglomeration with multiple representations. This is .....Father.....and.....Son..... two individuals just as any father and son are.
Remember - man is made in the image and likeness of God. How hard is it, then, to grasp what it means to be Father and Son?
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God (God being a Title) and they are One God - as in One Unified Godhead. However - they are not the same being, but are three individual beings.
The dictionary definition of trinity actually explains it more accurately than Trinitarian creeds:
Quote: trin·i·ty
1. A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
2. Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
trinity
n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one [syn: three, {3}, III, trio, threesome, tierce, leash, troika, triad, trine, ternary, ternion, triplet, tercet, terzetto, trey, deuce-ace]
2: the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead [syn: Trinity, Holy Trinity, Blessed Trinity, Sacred Trinity] 3: three people considered as a unit [syn: trio, threesome, triad]
trinity
a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are called one God, but the word, "one," has more than one definition. One of its meanings is:
Characterized by unity; undivided: They spoke with one voice.
examples of this kind of one:
one couple
one family
one group
one team
This is the way in which they are, "One God."
But I would say that Jesus, himself, in his great intercessory prayer, explains what it means to be, "one," best of all:
John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
If there are three individuals, then there are three gods. It's that simple. You pointed out this fact yourself. Speaking in unity doesnot change the fact that there are more than the voice of one individual speaking
God is one.
Y'shua was YHWH. He came into His creation as an actual man. The term the "Son" is simply an allusion to this. It doesn't mean He was literally God's progeny. YHWH did not have sexual relations with a woman and father a child. He took material form and caused Himself to be born in a human body and lived a human life. He was 100% man, but somehow at the same time 100% God.
He walked a mile in our shoes to carry our burden for us, when we couldn't.
Quote: to be honest I consider the Arians brothers and sisters in Christ,
That's your opinion, and I have nothing against it, but here is mine.
They worshiped a false Christ. Their concept was that of lesser demi-god, a sort of subset of YHWH, that had no actual human component. This is not the true nature of Christ. Christ warns of this mistake.
Quote: Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Whatever spirit led these folks to this belief mislead them. This can take many, many forms.
Quote: correct me if I'm wrong Cap, but the trinity isn't mentioned as one of the five pillars of fundementalism is it?
Hmmm. I'm familiar with the concept of the five pillars of Islam, but I am not familar with that. That doesn't mean anything though. I don't really pay much attention to that kind of stuff. I tend to get my info from the Bible and the Spirit.
Maybe I'm wrong. Who can say?
I think your confusing the Arians and the Nestorians......the Arians just believed that the father created the Son:
Quote: Arianism was a Christological view held by followers of Arius, a Christian bishop and priest who lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 4th century. Arius taught that God the Father and the Son were not co-eternal, seeing the pre-incarnate Jesus as a divine being but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a "creature;" in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of "created being."
The Nestorians denied Christ's humanity:
Quote: Nestorianism is the Christian doctrine that Jesus existed as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. This doctrine is identified with Nestorius (c.386–c.451), Patriarch of Constantinople. This view of Christ was condemned at the Council of Ephesus in 431, and the conflict over this view led to the Nestorian schism, separating the Assyrian Church of the East from the Byzantine Church.
(shrug)but what-ever as I said earlier, I don't believe that the trinity is a foundation of the faith..... |
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Optimist Slime
Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: It is not speaking of a literal "father" and "son".
The term "son" is a metaphor for the relationship between two aspects of YHWH.
They are distinct. The "Father" aspect is completely unknowable. Beyond the ken of the human mind.
The "Son" aspect is something material we could see and touch. The "Holy Spirit" aspect was somewhere in between.
The term Holy Spirit comes from the concept of the Shekinah. A word that literally means "the presence of YHWH". You could see it, and feel it, but it wasn't material.
All are different aspects, that to our small perspective, are difficult to see come from the same source. Much like the fish in my aquarium metaphor cannot distinguish the a hand reaching into their habitat is a member of the presence they sense outside the habitat controlling it's variables.
Take a look at this statement and tell me what you think it could mean.
Quote: Joh 8:58 -
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Then what does it mean when i said "Hear O Israel, The Lord Thy God, He is One"? |
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MJB
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 594
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Doowstados wrote: "That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person."
It says There is only 1 god, and then it goes on to say "Christ was truly god, but yet was a person distinct from the father"
How is that possible, when it clearly states there is but 1 god?
One God, yes, but not one entity. The above definition does not say they are one entity either, but one God, and each distinct from the other.
Nothing I posted says they are one entity.
But again, being one does not automatically mean, "one being," or, "one entity."
Did you not see what Jesus meant as he described one in John?
Quote: John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Also, Paul says:
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8: 6
Paul distinguishes God the Father as our God, and Jesus Christ as our Lord, and clearly we should be able to understand the difference, as Jesus was not only subservient and obedient to God the Father, but worshipped and prayed to God the Father, all of which he also taught us to also do. |
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MJB
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 594
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: MJB wrote: Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and God is his Father.
A father and son are parent and child, they are not the same entity, nor do they have the same soul.
God said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is God the Father speaking of His Only Begotten Son. (beget: to father, sire........begotten: offspring - generated by procreation)
This is not some mystical conglomeration with multiple representations. This is .....Father.....and.....Son..... two individuals just as any father and son are.
Remember - man is made in the image and likeness of God. How hard is it, then, to grasp what it means to be Father and Son?
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God (God being a Title) and they are One God - as in One Unified Godhead. However - they are not the same being, but are three individual beings.
The dictionary definition of trinity actually explains it more accurately than Trinitarian creeds:
Quote: trin·i·ty
1. A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
2. Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.
trinity
n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one [syn: three, {3}, III, trio, threesome, tierce, leash, troika, triad, trine, ternary, ternion, triplet, tercet, terzetto, trey, deuce-ace]
2: the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead [syn: Trinity, Holy Trinity, Blessed Trinity, Sacred Trinity] 3: three people considered as a unit [syn: trio, threesome, triad]
trinity
a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are called one God, but the word, "one," has more than one definition. One of its meanings is:
Characterized by unity; undivided: They spoke with one voice.
examples of this kind of one:
one couple
one family
one group
one team
This is the way in which they are, "One God."
But I would say that Jesus, himself, in his great intercessory prayer, explains what it means to be, "one," best of all:
John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
If there are three individuals, then there are three gods. It's that simple. You pointed out this fact yourself. Speaking in unity doesnot change the fact that there are more than the voice of one individual speaking
God is one.
Y'shua was YHWH. He came into His creation as an actual man. The term the "Son" is simply an allusion to this. It doesn't mean He was literally God's progeny. YHWH did not have sexual relations with a woman and father a child. He took material form and caused Himself to be born in a human body and lived a human life. He was 100% man, but somehow at the same time 100% God.
He walked a mile in our shoes to carry our burden for us, when we couldn't.
Quote: to be honest I consider the Arians brothers and sisters in Christ,
That's your opinion, and I have nothing against it, but here is mine.
They worshiped a false Christ. Their concept was that of lesser demi-god, a sort of subset of YHWH, that had no actual human component. This is not the true nature of Christ. Christ warns of this mistake.
Quote: Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Whatever spirit led these folks to this belief mislead them. This can take many, many forms.
Quote: correct me if I'm wrong Cap, but the trinity isn't mentioned as one of the five pillars of fundementalism is it?
Hmmm. I'm familiar with the concept of the five pillars of Islam, but I am not familar with that. That doesn't mean anything though. I don't really pay much attention to that kind of stuff. I tend to get my info from the Bible and the Spirit.
Maybe I'm wrong. Who can say?
I absolutely agree that God is one, but I completely disagree that God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same being, and I think it's obvious which meaning of the word one is being used here.
You are correct that God did not have sexual relations with Mary. That is the miracle of it. However, he did father a child, as Mary, "conceived," and since God can do all things, it would not be difficult for him to sire a Son, without compromising Mary's chastity. |
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Saf
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: God is certainly not human.
Christ is a an aspect of God.
YHWH came into His own Creation as a man, the Son, to set things back in order. To redeem us, in spite of what we are.
Whether you choose to believe this or not is up to you. But it is what Y'shua taught, and the belief of those who follow Him.
No, it's not what he taught. It's what John made up after Christ died. Find the passage that directly quotes Jesus saying, "Myself, my Father (who is God the Father, the transcendent creator) and the Holy Spirit are all separate personas of the same eternal being, and this is the doctrine of the trinity which you must believe if you are to follow me." That should keep you busy for a while. |
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John
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 24190
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: No, it's not what he taught.
Yes....actually it is exactly what He taught.
What do you think He means by, "Whoever believes in ME"?
Are we to put our Faith in anything other than God? |
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issaiah1332
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 465
Location: Wv
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: It is not speaking of a literal "father" and "son".
The term "son" is a metaphor for the relationship between two aspects of YHWH.
They are distinct. The "Father" aspect is completely unknowable. Beyond the ken of the human mind.
The "Son" aspect is something material we could see and touch. The "Holy Spirit" aspect was somewhere in between.
The term Holy Spirit comes from the concept of the Shekinah. A word that literally means "the presence of YHWH". You could see it, and feel it, but it wasn't material.
All are different aspects, that to our small perspective, are difficult to see come from the same source. Much like the fish in my aquarium metaphor cannot distinguish the a hand reaching into their habitat is a member of the presence they sense outside the habitat controlling it's variables.
Take a look at this statement and tell me what you think it could mean.
Quote: Joh 8:58 -
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
That is the craziest thing i have ever heard, that is not backed by anything other than opinion, offer some biblical evidence. |
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John
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 24190
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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issaiah1332 wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It is not speaking of a literal "father" and "son".
The term "son" is a metaphor for the relationship between two aspects of YHWH.
They are distinct. The "Father" aspect is completely unknowable. Beyond the ken of the human mind.
The "Son" aspect is something material we could see and touch. The "Holy Spirit" aspect was somewhere in between.
The term Holy Spirit comes from the concept of the Shekinah. A word that literally means "the presence of YHWH". You could see it, and feel it, but it wasn't material.
All are different aspects, that to our small perspective, are difficult to see come from the same source. Much like the fish in my aquarium metaphor cannot distinguish the a hand reaching into their habitat is a member of the presence they sense outside the habitat controlling it's variables.
Take a look at this statement and tell me what you think it could mean.
Quote: Joh 8:58 -
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
That is the craziest thing i have ever heard, that is not backed by anything other than opinion, offer some biblical evidence.
Do you not see what is written in John 8:58? |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Saf wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: God is certainly not human.
Christ is a an aspect of God.
YHWH came into His own Creation as a man, the Son, to set things back in order. To redeem us, in spite of what we are.
Whether you choose to believe this or not is up to you. But it is what Y'shua taught, and the belief of those who follow Him.
No, it's not what he taught. It's what John made up after Christ died. Find the passage that directly quotes Jesus saying, "Myself, my Father (who is God the Father, the transcendent creator) and the Holy Spirit are all separate personas of the same eternal being, and this is the doctrine of the trinity which you must believe if you are to follow me." That should keep you busy for a while.
Read John 1:1-5 carefully, and then tell me who the creator is. |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Here, I'll help you.
This is one of the most profound passages in the scripture.
Quote: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Do you understand? |
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Aqualung
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 2260
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: Here, I'll help you.
This is one of the most profound passages in the scripture.
Quote: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Do you understand?
And where is the passage in the Bible that says that The Father ALSO created the earth, thus confirming that the father and the son are one? Because all that comes to my mind is the parts where it says that the world was created through christ, or that The Father created the world through Christ.... |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Here, I'll help you.
This is one of the most profound passages in the scripture.
Quote: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Do you understand?
And where is the passage in the Bible that says that The Father ALSO created the earth, thus confirming that the father and the son are one? Because all that comes to my mind is the parts where it says that the world was created through christ, or that The Father created the world through Christ....
Quote: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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God is one.
Y'shua is not a "little God".
He is an aspect of YHWH. |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Here, I'll help you.
This is one of the most profound passages in the scripture.
Quote: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Do you understand?
And where is the passage in the Bible that says that The Father ALSO created the earth, thus confirming that the father and the son are one? Because all that comes to my mind is the parts where it says that the world was created through christ, or that The Father created the world through Christ....
Another one besides Genesis 1 is right under your nose if you would open your eyes and look.
Quote: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was God.
How much plainer does it have to be said? |
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psholtz
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 23468
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Here, I'll help you.
This is one of the most profound passages in the scripture.
Quote: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Do you understand?
And where is the passage in the Bible that says that The Father ALSO created the earth, thus confirming that the father and the son are one? Because all that comes to my mind is the parts where it says that the world was created through christ, or that The Father created the world through Christ....
Quote: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:1 doesn't say anything about the "Father" creating Heaven and Earth.. It talks about the Elohim (<- a name rendered in plural, no less) as creating Heaven and Earth. |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| So you are saying that there is more than one God? |
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psholtz
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 23468
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: So you are saying that there is more than one God?
I'm saying Gen 1:1 uses the (plural) phrase "Elohim" to describe the entity responsible for creating Heaven and Earth.. If you were only slightly more clever, you would have seized this opportunity to point out that the "plurality" in question *obviously* must be the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost ... but ... you didn't.. :wink:
At any rate, even if you tried to do that, I have a feeling the Jews would probably argue w/ you... :-D |
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cap'n queasy
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 34968
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: So you are saying that there is more than one God?
I'm saying Gen 1:1 uses the (plural) phrase "Elohim" to describe the entity responsible for creating Heaven and Earth.. If you were only slightly more clever, you would have seized this opportunity to point out that the "plurality" in question *obviously* must be the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost ... but ... you didn't.. :wink:
At any rate, even if you tried to do that, I have a feeling the Jews would probably argue w/ you... :-D
:lol:
So what you are saying is that the Father, the Son , and the Holy Spirit are all aspects of God. In other words, the Son is God.
And so you completely agree with me.
Excellent. I knew you would come around eventually.
:-D |
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psholtz
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 23468
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: So you are saying that there is more than one God?
I'm saying Gen 1:1 uses the (plural) phrase "Elohim" to describe the entity responsible for creating Heaven and Earth.. If you were only slightly more clever, you would have seized this opportunity to point out that the "plurality" in question *obviously* must be the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost ... but ... you didn't.. :wink:
At any rate, even if you tried to do that, I have a feeling the Jews would probably argue w/ you... :-D
:lol:
So what you are saying is that the Father, the Son , and the Holy Spirit are all aspects of God. In other words, the Son is God.
And so you completely agree with me.
Excellent. I knew you would come around eventually.
:-D
No, I didn't say I agree w/ you... :wink:
I don't lay claim to an understanding of (or opinion on) the Word, or the Trinity, or Creation, etc.. These are all theological doctrines far above and beyond my poor understanding.. |
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Aqualung
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 2260
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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cap'n queasy wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Here, I'll help you.
This is one of the most profound passages in the scripture.
Quote: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Do you understand?
And where is the passage in the Bible that says that The Father ALSO created the earth, thus confirming that the father and the son are one? Because all that comes to my mind is the parts where it says that the world was created through christ, or that The Father created the world through Christ....
Quote: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Yeah. God. And John 1:1-5 specifically says that the Word is God. Read it carefully. |
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