Political Crossfire Forums

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

How can God the Father, and Jesus Christ, both be Gods, without it being polytheism? Simple.

Quote: Hebrews 1:1-4

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

As we can see here, God (the Father) has spoken to man at times, but there are also times when he speaks to man through his Son. That is, by having his Son do the speaking on his behalf.

This also tells us that God (the Father) appointed Christ heir of all things. You can't be an heir if you have no one to inherit something from. And, since Christ was appointed heir of all things, this includes being given Godly power and glory from his Father.

This also tells us that it was by Christ that God created the worlds. In other words, God the Father delegated to Christ the task of doing the creating. God = architect. Christ = contractor.

This tells us that Christ is in the express image of his Father.

And it also tells us that after Christ suffered for our sins, he sat down on the right hand of God the Father.

:arrow:

Now, some of you may still say that if this is the case, that would mean that both God the Father, as well as Jesus Christ, are Gods (and you would be correct). But you may insist that's something that cannot be!

Why not? Is our allegiance torn if they are both Gods? Is our loyalty to God compromised? Must we disobey one, in order to obey the other? No!

Jesus himself said he only does his Father's will, not his own, so when he speaks for God, and exercises authority in the name of God, it is directly from God the Father.

Some of you may still say, "But it doesn't matter. That still makes them two Gods, and that's wrong because there can only be one God! Oh no!"

But look at who Jesus prayed to. God the Father, not himself. Look at who he told us to pray to. God the Father, not himself. And remember what Jesus said to Mary the morning of the resurrection?

Quote: John 20: 17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

It's the same one God, God the Father. The God that is Jesus' God, as well as our own. Jesus is a God also, but he speaks forth the words of God the Father, and only God, his Father, does Jesus Christ serve. And we, as Christians, doing as Christ said, and being obedient to all he taught us, do the same.

Quote: 1 Corinthians 8: 6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

No compromise. No serving two masters. No conflict. :!:

Quote: Ephesians 4: 5-6

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: No offense, but your "we" doesn't include Christianity.
Yes, it does. Nowhere does the Bible say Christians are monotheistic. On the other hand, multiple times it admists to be monolotrous.

No, Mormonism is not Christianity, and apparently you have never really read the Bible, if you maintain Christianity it is not a monotheistic religion.

The fact that the Mormon view is NOT monotheistic is sufficient to prove that it is not Christianity at all.

It depends looking at Y'shua as a literal son of God simply because the Mormon belief is that the "god" of planet Earth is Adam and that he is a flesh and bone man, just as anyone else is, and that he received "godhood" when he died on another planet, as they believe will be their own destiny. In this they believe that "god" is the literal ancestor of everyone on Earth, not just Y'shua! Another belief tied into this is that each Mormon male will become "gods" of their own worlds, if they follow the strictures of this rather bizarre cult. Additionally they consider Y'shua and Satan to be brothers and that we are all their siblings as well.

And the view that there are many "gods" is depended on because of the same exact reasoning. How can they become "gods" themselves if there is only one God? They cannot. This is as far away from the belief imparted by the Holy Spirit as one can possibly get.

To this I can only point out that this belief that they will be gods unto themselves is the exact promise that the serpent made Eve when he convinced her to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge.
Quote: Genesis 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Except the Mormon takes this even further and say that not only will they be like God knowing Good and Evil, they will be a literal "god" unto themselves, ruling and populating their own planet.

Of course as a young woman in this cult, you may not be aware of this part of the Mormon belief because women do not generally have this doctrine shared with them as they do not receive their own planet or become a goddess. They are considered merely property of the man, a breeding apparatus used to populate an empty world. This doctrine is not openly taught but is one of many doctines that are "revealed later as one matures and gains the ability to accept them."
Which I am sure is a term you are familiar with.

This is not Christianity and don't bother denying that this is a basic overview of the Mormon belief structure because it undeniably is. This concept was developed by Joseph Smith and even more fully developed by Brigham Young and Orson Pratt and can be found in these official books outlining Mormon doctrine. Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.

Read these books and see for yourself what they contain.

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

Why don't you start a thread on Mormons not being christians?

cap'n queasy wrote: The fact that the Mormon view is NOT monotheistic is sufficient to prove that it is not Christianity at all.
That's a good statement. Especially combined with all that support you give after that statement. :roll:

NOTHING you said after this gave any sort of support to the claim that Christianity should be monotheistic. Seriously. You really need to work on that part of the debate where you supply support for your claims.

Quote: because the Mormon belief is that the "god" of planet Earth is Adam and that he is a flesh and bone man, just as anyone else is, and that he received "godhood" when he died on another planet,
Wow. You continue to surprise me with your ignorance.

Almost everything you said in this post (except maybe "the" or "and") was completely and utterly false.

On second thought, maybe you should do a little research before you start that thread...

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Jesus is a God also

I don't how much simpler I can put this for you, but if Y'shua is a god, but is not the same being as YHWH that can ONLY mean there are two gods.

This is not a correct view of the triune nature of God.

BTW, would you mind if I enquire what particular church denomination you belong to?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Why don't you start a thread on Mormons not being christians?

Because I have in the past several times and that subject has been done to death on this forum and I have begun to get extremely bored with it.

Quote: NOTHING you said after this gave any sort of support to the claim that Christianity should be monotheistic. Seriously. You really need to work on that part of the debate where you supply support for your claims.

That is utterly ridiculous and willfully ignorant. I have pointed out several of the dozens passages detailing the monotheistic character of Christianity. Flip remarks do not make this go away, young lady.

Quote: Wow. You continue to surprise me with your ignorance.

Almost everything you said in this post (except maybe "the" or "and") was completely and utterly false.

On second thought, maybe you should do a little research before you start that thread...

If you notice I detailed the exact page and volume in books on Mormon doctrine written by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Orson Pratt. But you are not going to bother to look and see for yourself.

I guess I could type the text out myself, but then you would just say the same thing. I know this because I have done just this several times on this forum.

I'll just leave it God's hands and let Him decide where you belong in His plan.

Good day.

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

cap'n queasy wrote: Because I have in the past several times and that subject has been done to death on this forum and I have begun to get extremely bored with it.
If it's so boring, why even bring it up in this thread? Oh, yeah. Because you have no support whatsoever, so at any opportunity you hurl baseless claims and then run and hide.

Quote: That is utterly ridiculous and willfully ignorant. I have pointed out several of the dozens passages detailing the monotheistic character of Christianity.
No. No you didn't. Not in this thread, anyway, and I'm certainly not going to go digging through your past posts to find them.

Quote: young lady.
:roll:

Quote: If you notice I detailed the exact page and volume in books on Mormon doctrine written by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Orson Pratt. But you are not going to bother to look and see for yourself.
No, I saw. It just amazes me that you think those comments were somehow revelation (as they don't claim to be) or doctrinally binding (as they also don't claim to be).

Quote: I'll just leave it God's hands and let Him decide where you belong in His plan.
:roll: How kind of you. :roll:

Why did you even join a debate forum if you never intended to supply support for any of your assertions? Was it simply so you could feel better about yourself by throwing insults at others?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Because you have no support whatsoever, so at any opportunity you hurl baseless claims and then run and hide.

I've given you the exact page numbers what more do you want?

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Because you have no support whatsoever, so at any opportunity you hurl baseless claims and then run and hide.

I've given you the exact page numbers what more do you want?
*sigh*

How about focusing on the issue at hand? (If you have forgotten, it is your claim that Christianity should be monotheistic, or has any basis in monotheism, to refute my claim that christianity is actually monolotrous.)

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: or doctrinally binding (as they also don't claim to be).

Then why is one of the books called Mormon Doctrine?

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

Start a thread.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Answer the question.

But if if you would really like me to start a thread whose subject is why is Mormon doctrine not doctrinely binding I suppose that might be of some interest to me.

:lol:

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

CrossEyedMary wrote: Start a thread.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24191

issaiah1332 wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: John wrote: So are you saying that God the Father doesn't exist and that Jesus Christ was a liar?
Again, I'm saying that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two seperate people, and that therefore Christ WASN'T lying when he said, for example, I am the Son of God (Matt. 27:43), or As my Father hath sent me (John 20:21). Christ is not his own father. They're seperate and distinct.

THANK YOU!!!

Yes they are distinct, but not separate.

Do you think that the "Father" inhabits a physical form?

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

John they don't get that he was completely 100% man and 100% God. God could have just snapped his fingers and we all would be saved, but instead he came down here to complete what he set out, and told us about in the Old Testament. I hope I'm stating it right...

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

LetsGetReal wrote: John they don't get that he was completely 100% man and 100% God. God could have just snapped his fingers and we all would be saved, but instead he came down here to complete what he set out, and told us about in the Old Testament. I hope I'm stating it right...
And what scripture do you use to back up these claims?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

CrossEyedMary wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Start a thread.
You asked for it.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59179&highlight=

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

CrossEyedMary wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: John they don't get that he was completely 100% man and 100% God. God could have just snapped his fingers and we all would be saved, but instead he came down here to complete what he set out, and told us about in the Old Testament. I hope I'm stating it right...
And what scripture do you use to back up these claims? The scripture can be found thru out this thread I don't believe I have to restate it. Go throught the pages and should find them.

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

cap'n queasy wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Start a thread.
You asked for it.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59179&highlight=
Good. Now, can we get back to the issue at hand?

What scriptural basis do you have for believing that Christianity should be monotheistic rather than monolotrous?

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

LetsGetReal wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: John they don't get that he was completely 100% man and 100% God. God could have just snapped his fingers and we all would be saved, but instead he came down here to complete what he set out, and told us about in the Old Testament. I hope I'm stating it right...
And what scripture do you use to back up these claims? The scripture can be found thru out this thread I don't believe I have to restate it. Go throught the pages and should find them.
There has been no scripture stated that said Christ was 100% man and 100% God. There is also no scripture to back up the claim that God could have snapped his fingers and forgiven us all.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

CrossEyedMary wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: John they don't get that he was completely 100% man and 100% God. God could have just snapped his fingers and we all would be saved, but instead he came down here to complete what he set out, and told us about in the Old Testament. I hope I'm stating it right...
And what scripture do you use to back up these claims? The scripture can be found thru out this thread I don't believe I have to restate it. Go throught the pages and should find them.
There has been no scripture stated that said Christ was 100% man and 100% God. There is also no scripture to back up the claim that God could have snapped his fingers and forgiven us all. God is not all powerful? :!: