Political Crossfire Forums

Doowstados · Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 281

Ok,nowhere in the bible is god referred to as a Trinity.
"Three" is never used in a reference to god in the bible.
God is never referenced as a person.
The holy spirit is never called god.
Christ and god cannot be the same person because, Christ is gods son, hence: "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
Source: http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
Open to debate.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

The word trinity, itself, is not used in the scriptures, this is true.

But it is a descriptive term used to describe the triune attributes of God that are found throughout the scripture

For example:
Quote: Mt 28:19 -
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Or perhaps you would prefer an example from the Old Testament.
Quote: 1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Notice verse 2, which I bolded. Christ is the Greek word for anointed. Messiah is the Hebrew word for the same. This Psalm clearly says that the Anointed one will be the ruler of the earth, and then tells us that He will do things to the earth that no mere man can do and that we should pay homage to Him. This Psalm is actually configured as a trialogue between the three aspects of YHWH.

Additionally, it would be very difficult to argue that the Holy Spirit is not God. This is distinctive from the Father, yet presented as an aspect YHWH throughout the entire scripture. So at least two aspects are impossible to credibly dispute. That leaves the Son.

The attribute known as the Son is much more of a mystery, but as we can see the scripture does tell us to do homage to Him, yet also says for us to to take no other gods before YHWH, and the Great Commission tells Y'shua's followers to to go out and baptize the world in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! One does not baptize another in the name of anything other than YHWH. It clearly groups the Son in with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which are undoubtably YHWH, as being distinctive from all else in existence. This is because to baptize is to sanctify, a fancy word for set aside, people for YHWH's exclusive use as spreaders of His word.

Additionally, Y'shua hints at His true nature hundreds of times. We can discuss some these, as well, if you like.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: God is never referenced as a person.

Is He referenced as the personification "Father"?

Yes.

Doowstados · Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 281

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: God is never referenced as a person.

Is He referenced as the personification "Father"?

Yes.

Because he is Christs Father, yes. And he created the Earth and heaven supposedly, yes. Therefore supposedly he is everyones father.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

That is clearly a personification.

Doowstados · Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 281

cap'n queasy wrote: The word trinity, itself, is not used in the scriptures, this is true.

But it is a descriptive term used to describe the triune attributes of God that are found throughout the scripture

For example:
Quote: Mt 28:19 -
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Or perhaps you would prefer an example from the Old Testament.
Quote: 1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Notice verse 2, which I bolded. Christ is the Greek word for anointed. Messiah is the Hebrew word for the same. This Psalm clearly says that the Anointed one will be the ruler of the earth, and then tells us that He will do things to the earth that no mere man can do and that we should pay homage to Him. This Psalm is actually configured as a trialogue between the three aspects of YHWH.

Additionally, it would be very difficult to argue that the Holy Spirit is not God. This is distinctive from the Father, yet presented as an aspect YHWH throughout the entire scripture. So at least two aspects are impossible to credibly dispute. That leaves the Son.

The attribute known as the Son is much more of a mystery, but as we can see the scripture does tell us to do homage to Him, yet also says for us to to take no other gods before YHWH, and the Great Commission tells Y'shua's followers to to go out and baptize the world in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! One does not baptize another in the name of anything other than YHWH. It clearly groups the Son in with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which are undoubtably YHWH, as being distinctive from all else in existence. This is because to baptize is to sanctify, a fancy word for set aside, people for YHWH's exclusive use as spreaders of His word.

Additionally, Y'shua hints at His true nature hundreds of times. We can discuss some these, as well, if you like.

"7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' " "

#1 You are my son, he says YOU meaning a seperate entity/soul.
#2 Today I have begotten you, how could he have begotten himself?
#3 He says he will give him the nations, and the ends of the earth, but how can he give himself something he already has?

(NOTE: It also clearly states that Satan is the owner of the nations,
"Again, the Devil takes Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and shows Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and says to Him, All these things will I give You, if You will fall down and worship me" "Matt. 4:8-9).

#1 Satan would not have been able to give him something he doesn't have.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: (NOTE: It also clearly states that Satan is the owner of the nations,

Only for a time. It is the Son who returns to reclaim the title deed that Adam foolishly gave away. You see, YHWH gave men the title deed for earth, and we traded it for a physical existence and eventual death. Y'shua is the Redeemer and Advocate who will set this right once our lesson is learned and we comprehend the "Knowledge of Good and Evil".

I look at the trinity in this manner.

Imagine the universe is an aquarium that God created and arranged. The fish He placed in the aquarium messed up His arrangement.

Does He try to fit His entire being into the aquarium to fix it? No, this would destroy it because He doesn't fit. So what he does is place His hands into it and re-arranges the things in it back the way they were before.

The Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), and Moshiach (Son) are these hands of YHWH.

To the tiny fish inside the aquarium they look like they are separate from the face they may see looking in, but in actuality they are all part of the whole.

I hope that helps you understand the concept.

Doowstados · Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 281

But the Doctrine of the Trinity clearly states that God, The Holy Spirit, And Jesus are all one entity. Meaning they have the same soul, which is clearly not possible just from the reference of the bible stated above,
"My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)

Anyway, the definition of personification is giving human type qualities to something not human, meaning god cannot be human, Also meaning god and Christ cannot be the same entity/being.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

God is certainly not human.

Christ is a an aspect of God.

YHWH came into His own Creation as a man, the Son, to set things back in order. To redeem us, in spite of what we are.

Whether you choose to believe this or not is up to you. But it is what Y'shua taught, and the belief of those who follow Him.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and God is his Father.

A father and son are parent and child, they are not the same entity, nor do they have the same soul.

God said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is God the Father speaking of His Only Begotten Son. (beget: to father, sire........begotten: offspring - generated by procreation)

This is not some mystical conglomeration with multiple representations. This is .....Father.....and.....Son..... two individuals just as any father and son are.

Remember - man is made in the image and likeness of God. How hard is it, then, to grasp what it means to be Father and Son?

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God (God being a Title) and they are One God - as in One Unified Godhead. However - they are not the same being, but are three individual beings.

The dictionary definition of trinity actually explains it more accurately than Trinitarian creeds:

Quote: trin·i·ty

1. A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
2. Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.

trinity

n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one [syn: three, {3}, III, trio, threesome, tierce, leash, troika, triad, trine, ternary, ternion, triplet, tercet, terzetto, trey, deuce-ace]

2: the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead [syn: Trinity, Holy Trinity, Blessed Trinity, Sacred Trinity] 3: three people considered as a unit [syn: trio, threesome, triad]

trinity

a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are called one God, but the word, "one," has more than one definition. One of its meanings is:

Characterized by unity; undivided: They spoke with one voice.

examples of this kind of one:

one couple
one family
one group
one team

This is the way in which they are, "One God."

But I would say that Jesus, himself, in his great intercessory prayer, explains what it means to be, "one," best of all:

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Doowstados · Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 281

Read the Doctrine of the Trinity and slap yourself in the face. It speaks of them as 1 entity, is it just me or did you ignore my posts above ~_~

Doowstados · Joined: 04 Nov 2005 Posts: 281

"That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person."

It says There is only 1 god, and then it goes on to say "Christ was truly god, but yet was a person distinct from the father"

How is that possible, when it clearly states there is but 1 god?

drobforever · Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 141

Doowstados wrote: "That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person."

It says There is only 1 god, and then it goes on to say "Christ was truly god, but yet was a person distinct from the father"

How is that possible, when it clearly states there is but 1 god?

I see you trying to force others to accept your definition of '1'. But then even though I try really hard I still cannot fully understand your definition of '1'. So, I'll try again: what's your definition of '1'?

eynon · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject:

:lol: I find the whole debate a bit to Greek for me, my Presbyterian pragmatism just simply doesn't care......I honor G-d no matter what form G-d may take :)

to be honest I consider the Arians brothers and sisters in Christ, many showed the obvious fruits of his grace, and they made huge sacrifices in order to bring the gosples to the Germans.

correct me if I'm wrong Cap, but the trinity isn't mentioned as one of the five pillars of fundementalism is it?

Quote: actively affirmed a "fundamental" set of Christian beliefs: the inerrancy of the Bible, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the authenticity of his miracles.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

Doowstados wrote: Read the Doctrine of the Trinity and slap yourself in the face. It speaks of them as 1 entity, is it just me or did you ignore my posts above ~_~

Are you speaking to me? If so, I must question if you read my post.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

MJB wrote: Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and God is his Father.

A father and son are parent and child, they are not the same entity, nor do they have the same soul.

God said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is God the Father speaking of His Only Begotten Son. (beget: to father, sire........begotten: offspring - generated by procreation)

This is not some mystical conglomeration with multiple representations. This is .....Father.....and.....Son..... two individuals just as any father and son are.

Remember - man is made in the image and likeness of God. How hard is it, then, to grasp what it means to be Father and Son?

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all God (God being a Title) and they are One God - as in One Unified Godhead. However - they are not the same being, but are three individual beings.

The dictionary definition of trinity actually explains it more accurately than Trinitarian creeds:

Quote: trin·i·ty

1. A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
2. Trinity Theology. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine.

trinity

n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of one and one and one [syn: three, {3}, III, trio, threesome, tierce, leash, troika, triad, trine, ternary, ternion, triplet, tercet, terzetto, trey, deuce-ace]

2: the union of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost in one Godhead [syn: Trinity, Holy Trinity, Blessed Trinity, Sacred Trinity] 3: three people considered as a unit [syn: trio, threesome, triad]

trinity

a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are called one God, but the word, "one," has more than one definition. One of its meanings is:

Characterized by unity; undivided: They spoke with one voice.

examples of this kind of one:

one couple
one family
one group
one team

This is the way in which they are, "One God."

But I would say that Jesus, himself, in his great intercessory prayer, explains what it means to be, "one," best of all:

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

If there are three individuals, then there are three gods. It's that simple. You pointed out this fact yourself. Speaking in unity doesnot change the fact that there are more than the voice of one individual speaking

God is one.

Y'shua was YHWH. He came into His creation as an actual man. The term the "Son" is simply an allusion to this. It doesn't mean He was literally God's progeny. YHWH did not have sexual relations with a woman and father a child. He took material form and caused Himself to be born in a human body and lived a human life. He was 100% man, but somehow at the same time 100% God.

He walked a mile in our shoes to carry our burden for us, when we couldn't.

Quote: to be honest I consider the Arians brothers and sisters in Christ,
That's your opinion, and I have nothing against it, but here is mine.

They worshiped a false Christ. Their concept was that of lesser demi-god, a sort of subset of YHWH, that had no actual human component. This is not the true nature of Christ. Christ warns of this mistake.

Quote: Matthew 24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Whatever spirit led these folks to this belief mislead them. This can take many, many forms.

Quote: correct me if I'm wrong Cap, but the trinity isn't mentioned as one of the five pillars of fundementalism is it?

Hmmm. I'm familiar with the concept of the five pillars of Islam, but I am not familar with that. That doesn't mean anything though. I don't really pay much attention to that kind of stuff. I tend to get my info from the Bible and the Spirit.

Maybe I'm wrong. Who can say?

Optimist Slime · Joined: 27 Jun 2006 Posts: 67

cap'n queasy wrote: The word trinity, itself, is not used in the scriptures, this is true.

But it is a descriptive term used to describe the triune attributes of God that are found throughout the scripture

For example:
Quote: Mt 28:19 -
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Or perhaps you would prefer an example from the Old Testament.
Quote: 1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Notice verse 2, which I bolded. Christ is the Greek word for anointed. Messiah is the Hebrew word for the same. This Psalm clearly says that the Anointed one will be the ruler of the earth, and then tells us that He will do things to the earth that no mere man can do and that we should pay homage to Him. This Psalm is actually configured as a trialogue between the three aspects of YHWH.

Additionally, it would be very difficult to argue that the Holy Spirit is not God. This is distinctive from the Father, yet presented as an aspect YHWH throughout the entire scripture. So at least two aspects are impossible to credibly dispute. That leaves the Son.

The attribute known as the Son is much more of a mystery, but as we can see the scripture does tell us to do homage to Him, yet also says for us to to take no other gods before YHWH, and the Great Commission tells Y'shua's followers to to go out and baptize the world in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! One does not baptize another in the name of anything other than YHWH. It clearly groups the Son in with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which are undoubtably YHWH, as being distinctive from all else in existence. This is because to baptize is to sanctify, a fancy word for set aside, people for YHWH's exclusive use as spreaders of His word.

Additionally, Y'shua hints at His true nature hundreds of times. We can discuss some these, as well, if you like.

Boulderdash! I have bene misqouted and you will burn in Hell for blaspheming in my name! God isn't insane!

issaiah1332 · Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 465 Location: Wv

cap'n queasy wrote: The word trinity, itself, is not used in the scriptures, this is true.

But it is a descriptive term used to describe the triune attributes of God that are found throughout the scripture

For example:
Quote: Mt 28:19 -
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Or perhaps you would prefer an example from the Old Testament.
Quote: 1 Why are the nations in an uproar

And the peoples devising a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth take their stand

And the rulers take counsel together

Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,

3 "Let us tear their fetters apart

And cast away their cords from us!"

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,

The Lord scoffs at them.

5 Then He will speak to them in His anger

And terrify them in His fury, saying,

6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King

Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:

He said to Me, `You are My Son,

Today I have begotten You.

8 `Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,

And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 `You shall break them with a rod of iron,

You shall shatter them like earthenware.' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;

Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

For His wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Notice verse 2, which I bolded. Christ is the Greek word for anointed. Messiah is the Hebrew word for the same. This Psalm clearly says that the Anointed one will be the ruler of the earth, and then tells us that He will do things to the earth that no mere man can do and that we should pay homage to Him. This Psalm is actually configured as a trialogue between the three aspects of YHWH.

Additionally, it would be very difficult to argue that the Holy Spirit is not God. This is distinctive from the Father, yet presented as an aspect YHWH throughout the entire scripture. So at least two aspects are impossible to credibly dispute. That leaves the Son.

The attribute known as the Son is much more of a mystery, but as we can see the scripture does tell us to do homage to Him, yet also says for us to to take no other gods before YHWH, and the Great Commission tells Y'shua's followers to to go out and baptize the world in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! One does not baptize another in the name of anything other than YHWH. It clearly groups the Son in with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which are undoubtably YHWH, as being distinctive from all else in existence. This is because to baptize is to sanctify, a fancy word for set aside, people for YHWH's exclusive use as spreaders of His word.

Additionally, Y'shua hints at His true nature hundreds of times. We can discuss some these, as well, if you like.

In that passage, it is making a clear differentiation between the three. It does not say that they are one and the same. Jesus said "I am not the father, I am the son."

issaiah1332 · Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 465 Location: Wv

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Also, if Jesus Christ and God are one and the same, than who was jesus praying to through out his life? Who did he say forsaken him?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

It is not speaking of a literal "father" and "son".

The term "son" is a metaphor for the relationship between two aspects of YHWH.

They are distinct. The "Father" aspect is completely unknowable. Beyond the ken of the human mind.

The "Son" aspect is something material we could see and touch. The "Holy Spirit" aspect was somewhere in between.

The term Holy Spirit comes from the concept of the Shekinah. A word that literally means "the presence of YHWH". You could see it, and feel it, but it wasn't material.

All are different aspects, that to our small perspective, are difficult to see come from the same source. Much like the fish in my aquarium metaphor cannot distinguish the a hand reaching into their habitat is a member of the presence they sense outside the habitat controlling it's variables.

Take a look at this statement and tell me what you think it could mean.
Quote: Joh 8:58 -
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."