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LDS Patriot · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 200

A must read!

Quantifying Arab Democracy: Democracy in the Middle East - Middle East Quarterly - Summer 2006:

Quote: Debates over democracy continue to occupy not only U.S. and European policymakers but Arabs as well. Arguments rage about the merits of top-down versus bottom-up democratization. In coffeehouses and in taxis, Arabs discuss the issue. Can democracy take root in Arab countries? How can democracy's supporters move democratization forward? Is civil society a precursor for democracy, or can civil society thrive only once democracy is achieved? How do each country's internal and external dynamics affect the process? In order to gauge progress, it is necessary to measure democracy. Comparisons of such measurements taken in seventeen Arab states between 1999 and 2005 suggest not only is progress lacking in most countries, but across the Middle East, reform has backslid.
Source

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

A very good article. :tu:

Specifically look at "TABLE 2: Status of Democracy Index's Ranking of 17 Arab Countries, 2006". The saddest part is that the score for human rights for almost every Arab country is almost 0.5 meaning that it doesn't even exist. That's what is truly precarious about the situation in the Middle East and I have very low confidence in the ability of a democratic system to correct this situation because democracy only brings what the majority want to a great extent. Though, it has to be said that there are encouraging signs [if not too many] that there are some movement in terms of improvement in a variety of areas when one looks at Table 1 and Table 2.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16376 Location: On Earth

Yes, democracy can take root in Arab countries when the U.S. administration stops sending military aid to governments like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, among others. Democracy is already taking shape in Kuwait and Qatar (note I did not mention Iraq because it is under occupation). This has nothing to do with Arab society: Arab society, at its base, is civil and open, though reserved at times, but there is no hint that Arab culture or society has a link with the political system in Arab countries.

Furthermore, I would like to stress that the U.S. administration is supporting an Egyptian government that does not want reform, and the administration knew this, and still sent millions of dollars in military aid. So, technically, this article is moot at where it critiques society if not the government.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8584 Location: Petah Tikva

Saracen Egypt actually has one of the better scores on there, as well as a better human rights record than most of those countries.

Saudi Arabia however I agree with.

Quote: This has nothing to do with Arab society: Arab society, at its base, is civil and open, though reserved at times, but there is no hint that Arab culture or society has a link with the political system in Arab countries.

That however I think is foolish, culture has everything to do with how a governmental system takes hold. Arab culture has remained the same for centuries and the governmental system having remained the same for nearly as long in essence a system of Autocracy and power. You cannot expect Democracy a concept which is contridictary to the power based systems of the Arab world and has been for centuries to take root with ease.

Arab culture has a definite link to how long and well Democracy assimilates.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16376 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: Saracen Egypt actually has one of the better scores on there, as well as a better human rights record than most of those countries.

Election reform trashed... Protestors arrested and/or beaten... Even though they had an election, it was stolen, even after the elections were over.

Quote: Saudi Arabia however I agree with.

It's not as horrible, though: Saudi Arabia has seen great progress in the past decade.

Quote: That however I think is foolish, culture has everything to do with how a governmental system takes hold. Arab culture has remained the same for centuries and the governmental system having remained the same for nearly as long in essence a system of Autocracy and power. You cannot expect Democracy a concept which is contridictary to the power based systems of the Arab world and has been for centuries to take root with ease.

Arab culture has a definite link to how long and well Democracy assimilates.

Then, explain Italy, once a Kingdom, and explain Greece, which was also a Kingdom. It's not culture, skippy, and it depends on how you define culture. From what I see, rites and traditions don't reflect on politics. If you're talking about political climate, which differs from culture, that I can agree with. What we are seeing is not changing culture, but changing political climate.

henri · Joined: 24 Apr 2006 Posts: 338

>>Saudi Arabia has seen as great progress in the past decades<<

Don't kid yourself, The Saudi Royals are worst rulers than Saddam Hussein ever was, according to the Washington Post magazine. (2002)

In Saddams Iraq, Christians were allowed to worship their religion, in Saudi Arabia it is not allowed. Under Saddam, women's right are respected, not in Saudi Arabia.

Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq are secular muslim countries.
Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are stricty 'Sharia'.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16376 Location: On Earth

henri wrote: Don't kid yourself, The Saudi Royals are worst rulers than Saddam Hussein ever was, according to the Washington Post magazine. (2002)

Mon Ami, I live in Saudi Arabia.

Quote: In Saddams Iraq, Christians were allowed to worship their religion, in Saudi Arabia it is not
allowed. Under Saddam, women's right are respected, not in Saudi Arabia.

I agree to an extent: the view of human rights in Saudi Arabia is different in some forms regarding work habits and other public duties, etc., but is understood by the women themselves.

Quote: Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq are secular muslim countries.

Lebanon is secular: Christians and Muslims make up an almost equal percentage of the population.

Quote: Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan are stricty 'Sharia'.

Their own version, but this is not the real Shariah.

Tepic · Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 1551

Saracen wrote: Greece, which was also a Kingdom.
Wasn't the first democracy in Greece? :P

AKAMad · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 307 Location: Birmingham

This is an interesting article. It is a pity that it is meaningless. You can not measure an abstraction like democracy. Of course some countries are more democratic than others, but that is highly subjective.

1. Why measure if there is a democratically elected Head of State. In most countries the Head of State is a ceremonial position. It is the head of the Government that wields the power. This was obviously prepared from an American perspective.

2. What exactly is Human Development ?

3. Does Human rights include the right to Healthcare, a livable minimum wage and Abortion ?

4. Does Economic Freedom include the freedom to starve ?

I am sure that you can think of your own awkward questions.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2678

AKAMad wrote: This is an interesting article. It is a pity that it is meaningless. You can not measure an abstraction like democracy. Of course some countries are more democratic than others, but that is highly subjective.

1. Why measure if there is a democratically elected Head of State. In most countries the Head of State is a ceremonial position. It is the head of the Government that wields the power. This was obviously prepared from an American perspective.

2. What exactly is Human Development ?

3. Does Human rights include the right to Healthcare, a livable minimum wage and Abortion ?

4. Does Economic Freedom include the freedom to starve ?

I am sure that you can think of your own awkward questions.

Great post it annoys me when we use the blanket term "Democracy" when there are diffrents sorts of "Democracy" also annoys me when we assume every other nation has to be like a western "Democracy" just cos it works for us dosen't mean it'll work for everyone.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

mendosan wrote: AKAMad wrote: This is an interesting article. It is a pity that it is meaningless. You can not measure an abstraction like democracy. Of course some countries are more democratic than others, but that is highly subjective.

1. Why measure if there is a democratically elected Head of State. In most countries the Head of State is a ceremonial position. It is the head of the Government that wields the power. This was obviously prepared from an American perspective.

2. What exactly is Human Development ?

3. Does Human rights include the right to Healthcare, a livable minimum wage and Abortion ?

4. Does Economic Freedom include the freedom to starve ?

I am sure that you can think of your own awkward questions.

Great post it annoys me when we use the blanket term "Democracy" when there are diffrents sorts of "Democracy" also annoys me when we assume every other nation has to be like a western "Democracy" just cos it works for us dosen't mean it'll work for everyone.

Try being gay, live in the Middle East, and say the same thing ... :roll:

It's easy to cast everything off as "subjectivite" where differences in culture supposedly justify degrading treatments of minorities. Are there differences in cultures? Absolutely ... but that does not mean their practice should continue.