Political Crossfire Forums

[toddytodd]

LetsGetReal wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought. Then you have very little faith in your fellow Christians.

I am not required to have faith in any person to be a Christian or a non-Christian

[LetsGetReal]

toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought.

Isn't it fascinating that Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along.

While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH.

It is often inconcievable to some that simply by arriving at a different conclusion a person who disagrees with you may have employed a significant portion of their brain to do so, and simply not seen things as YOU DO.

And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief.

Atheism is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to and both geniuses, average folk and idiots share the belief, that is as far as I can go in attempting a counter generalization.

Note: I don't believe "... [all] Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along...". Many Christians are very intelligent. However, at least in my experience, I believe those to be the minority.
Quote: While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH. Just to be clear to everyone, I never implied this. I have not yet found the truth, although I am searching for it.
Quote: And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief. Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole.
I do believe that people who follow anything blindly, without questioning what they are told or looking into it with their own eyes more, should step back and do so. So you don't believe in pre-suppositions then? So speaking from experiences from a fraction of a percent, gives you the audacity to make a broad generalization about the entire group? I would also like to know what did you do to these people sit them down and give them a 100 question quiz?

Here we go again.... Quote: So speaking from experiences from a fraction of a percent, gives you the audacity to make a broad generalization about the entire group? I am only going to say this once: No, I am not generalizing the entire population. As I said previously
I am basing my point of view from the people I know, as I said previously (see here: Quote: Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole. ). If you want to call that audacity, feel free. However, to blinding follow anything without making an informed decision, religion included, is a waste of brain power and only a let down to those people I believe.
Quote: I would also like to know what did you do to these people sit them down and give them a 100 question quiz? Not that I need to answer your question to justify what I said, however, you asked, so I will paraphrase: When I ask anyone why they believe in "X" and all I get is 'because', that tells me they are not thinking about it, just following blindly what someone told them to do, or what the read or heard. In order to convince me of something one believes in (or anything in general), they must be able to tell me why they believe (even if I don't understand or believe their reason). To just say 'because I do' or 'well, that's what the preacher said' , or quote some verse that has nothing to do with the topic at hand and then feel justified that the quoted something, those are the people I feel bad for and those are the people that aren't thinking.
The Christians you may know may not act like this, and if they don't, that's great! But most of the ones I know answer my questions in this manner. This proves my point to me. Here is an exmample of how you state both sides and claim neutrality. toddytodd wrote: I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. Then you go on to say... toddytodd wrote: Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole. Do you see how you take both sides and claim you said neither one absolute? You are making a broad generalization in the beginning, but later on you try to take it back without actually doing it. So which one is it Most christians or you don't know?

And again I ask you, do you not believe in pre-suppositions? If you don't know what they are I will gladly describe them to you. However if you do believe in them it is impossible to not blindly follow them. And as you have put it you shouldn't blindly follow anything, so in essence you would be incorrect yet again.

Also I doubt they said "because I do" and the only ones you might get to say that is ones with weak faith or of the younger generation. Religion is like school the longer your in it the more you learn.

[LetsGetReal]

toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought. Then you have very little faith in your fellow Christians.

I am not required to have faith in any person to be a Christian or a non-Christian Who said you did? :!?:

[cap'n queasy]

feederband wrote: toddytodd wrote: feederband wrote: perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought.

I disagree. I think most Christians have examined their faith, and have actively decided for it, not just followed like sheep. I was raised by a Catholic Mother and an Agnostic Father. Watching the two of them, choosing to be Catholic was the easy choice. It was a much more rational way to live than the wandering aimlessness of agnosticism.

Not where I live...The only things they know about there religion is what has been force fead to them.
Not with the Christians I know. They study what they are told, not much else.

Hell I know more about their religion then they do...

:lol: That's the funniest thing I have read today.

[LetsGetReal]

Was good for a laugh :)....

[toddytodd]

LetsGetReal wrote: toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought.

Isn't it fascinating that Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along.

While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH.

It is often inconcievable to some that simply by arriving at a different conclusion a person who disagrees with you may have employed a significant portion of their brain to do so, and simply not seen things as YOU DO.

And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief.

Atheism is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to and both geniuses, average folk and idiots share the belief, that is as far as I can go in attempting a counter generalization.

Note: I don't believe "... [all] Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along...". Many Christians are very intelligent. However, at least in my experience, I believe those to be the minority.
Quote: While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH. Just to be clear to everyone, I never implied this. I have not yet found the truth, although I am searching for it.
Quote: And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief. Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole.
I do believe that people who follow anything blindly, without questioning what they are told or looking into it with their own eyes more, should step back and do so. So you don't believe in pre-suppositions then? So speaking from experiences from a fraction of a percent, gives you the audacity to make a broad generalization about the entire group? I would also like to know what did you do to these people sit them down and give them a 100 question quiz?

Here we go again.... Quote: So speaking from experiences from a fraction of a percent, gives you the audacity to make a broad generalization about the entire group? I am only going to say this once: No, I am not generalizing the entire population. As I said previously
I am basing my point of view from the people I know, as I said previously (see here: Quote: Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole. ). If you want to call that audacity, feel free. However, to blinding follow anything without making an informed decision, religion included, is a waste of brain power and only a let down to those people I believe.
Quote: I would also like to know what did you do to these people sit them down and give them a 100 question quiz? Not that I need to answer your question to justify what I said, however, you asked, so I will paraphrase: When I ask anyone why they believe in "X" and all I get is 'because', that tells me they are not thinking about it, just following blindly what someone told them to do, or what the read or heard. In order to convince me of something one believes in (or anything in general), they must be able to tell me why they believe (even if I don't understand or believe their reason). To just say 'because I do' or 'well, that's what the preacher said' , or quote some verse that has nothing to do with the topic at hand and then feel justified that the quoted something, those are the people I feel bad for and those are the people that aren't thinking.
The Christians you may know may not act like this, and if they don't, that's great! But most of the ones I know answer my questions in this manner. This proves my point to me. Here is an exmample of how you state both sides and claim neutrality. toddytodd wrote: I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. Then you go on to say... toddytodd wrote: Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole. Do you see how you take both sides and claim you said neither one absolute? You are making a broad generalization in the beginning, but later on you try to take it back without actually doing it. So which one is it Most christians or you don't know?

And again I ask you, do you not believe in pre-suppositions? If you don't know what they are I will gladly describe them to you. However if you do believe in them it is impossible to not blindly follow them. And as you have put it you shouldn't blindly follow anything, so in essence you would be incorrect yet again.

Also I doubt they said "because I do" and the only ones you might get to say that is ones with weak faith or of the younger generation. Religion is like school the longer your in it the more you learn.

You can doubt whatever you want. Those are some of the answer I have received from some people, regardless if you believe it or not. Your dis-belief of my statement is your problem, not mine, as I have no reason to lie, especially on here.
And no I don't see me taking both sides, as I am not. My opinion of is based on the people I know and have come in contact with (as I stated). Therefore, based upon the people I know or have come in contact with, I can rightly say that, based upon my experiences, it is my opinion most Christians have not done the proper (or any) research on their belief(s). And many (dare I say most) follow blindly. And I will say, for the last time, that my experience may not represent Christianity as a whole. My statement and my opinion stands regardless if you can't or won't accept it or understand it.
I will not defend my opinion to you on this matter any further.

[toddytodd]

LetsGetReal wrote: Then you have very little faith in your fellow Christians.

ToddyTodd wrote: I am not required to have faith in any person to be a Christian or a non-Christian
LetsGetReal wrote: Who said you did? :!?:

Do you have to even ask that question?

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought.

Isn't it fascinating that Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along.

While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH.

It is often inconcievable to some that simply by arriving at a different conclusion a person who disagrees with you may have employed a significant portion of their brain to do so, and simply not seen things as YOU DO.

And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief.

Atheism is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to and both geniuses, average folk and idiots share the belief, that is as far as I can go in attempting a counter generalization.

Note: I don't believe "... [all] Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along...". Many Christians are very intelligent. However, at least in my experience, I believe those to be the minority.
Quote: While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH. Just to be clear to everyone, I never implied this. I have not yet found the truth, although I am searching for it.
Quote: And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief. Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole.
I do believe that people who follow anything blindly, without questioning what they are told or looking into it with their own eyes more, should step back and do so.

Then you should strike the first sentence since it presents no qualification and you go on to support the generalization by using your personal observations. Secondly if you ONLY make a determination by the very limited number of people you know why would you think it would have much value to anyone else?

You bring up a second contrast, being a Christian is EASY.

This is in total contrast to the another common statement that Christianity is RESTRICTIVE and EXCLUSIVE because it is nearly impossible to live the sort of life it demands of its followers.

First let me make clear that it is IMPOSSIBLE, not nearly impossible to live the sort of life Christianity demands.

Now let me ask a question, how can a religion which demands so much and excludes you for sins which can not be avoided be EASIER than making up my own rules?

[feederband]

LetsGetReal wrote: Was good for a laugh :)....


Thats funny I found it sad.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought.

Isn't it fascinating that Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along.

While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH.

It is often inconcievable to some that simply by arriving at a different conclusion a person who disagrees with you may have employed a significant portion of their brain to do so, and simply not seen things as YOU DO.

And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief.

Atheism is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to and both geniuses, average folk and idiots share the belief, that is as far as I can go in attempting a counter generalization.

Note: I don't believe "... [all] Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along...". Many Christians are very intelligent. However, at least in my experience, I believe those to be the minority.
Quote: While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH. Just to be clear to everyone, I never implied this. I have not yet found the truth, although I am searching for it.
Quote: And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief. Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole.
I do believe that people who follow anything blindly, without questioning what they are told or looking into it with their own eyes more, should step back and do so.

Then you should strike the first sentence since it presents no qualification and you go on to support the generalization by using your personal observations. Secondly if you ONLY make a determination by the very limited number of people you know why would you think it would have much value to anyone else?

You bring up a second contrast, being a Christian is EASY.

This is in total contrast to the another common statement that Christianity is RESTRICTIVE and EXCLUSIVE because it is nearly impossible to live the sort of life it demands of its followers.

First let me make clear that it is IMPOSSIBLE, not nearly impossible to live the sort of life Christianity demands.

Now let me ask a question, how can a religion which demands so much and excludes you for sins which can not be avoided be EASIER than making up my own rules?

I am not 'striking' anything for those who don't understand - I am sorry these people don't understand. I hold my right to make any generalizations about anyone based on my personal opinions as long as I don't actively discriminate these people because of these generalizations up front. I give everyone a chance to make an empression on me when I meet them. These people I am using as my frame of reference, which I have every right to do. Just as many christians do with other religious people or non-believers. Sadly, most christian people I meet and have met prove what I am saying. So let's move on......
I believe being a Christian is easy in the way that there is always an 'easy out'. It is hard (difficult, impossible, insert any word you wish here) to live up to non-human standards, true. However, when all you need it guilt to make you say 'sorry', 'forgive me', (again, insert any word you wish here) it is easy. Perhaps it would have made more sense to say, being a Christian is easy when all you have to do is continuously ask for forgiveness when you screw up. Don't misunderstand me; I believe there is much power in the act of forgiveness (both for the forgiven and the person doing the forgiving, as long as it is done honestly).

Quote: Now let me ask a question, how can a religion which demands so much and excludes you for sins which can not be avoided be EASIER than making up my own rules? Guilt makes people do a lot of things that they wouldn't do otherwise. I believe Christianity uses guilt to conform - I see it almost every church service, rather in person or on TV or radio. Now I know someone will try to lecture me on guilt and the holy spirit - no need to do so so please save your time. I am familiar personally with both guilt and the holy spirit, no matter what some people think. Here is the main reason why I think it is easier: Normally, when someone does something bad (speeding ticket, bar fight, stealing, etc), regardless if they ask for forgiveness or not, there is actual punishment (jail time, a fine, etc). Christians believe in this actual punishment as well, but also believe in hell as an ultimate punishment. Christians can 'avoid' this ultimate punishment (which is not proved to exists) by simply asking for forgiveness.
In addition, some preventative maintenance: I don't intend to respond to all of those who I may have upset or offended so please don't expect me to (but feel free to reply in kind). This is my belief and it stands as is, regardless of who likes it or not.

[LetsGetReal]

toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Then you have very little faith in your fellow Christians.

ToddyTodd wrote: I am not required to have faith in any person to be a Christian or a non-Christian
LetsGetReal wrote: Who said you did? :!?:

Do you have to even ask that question? Faith in your fellow Christians, where did you get you have to "have faith" in other christians to be christians? :!?:

[LetsGetReal]

When you ask for forgiveness will God know if your sincere?

[toddytodd]

LetsGetReal wrote: When you ask for forgiveness will God know if your sincere?
If He doesn't, then he wouldn't be God

[Gilbert1908]

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: Dustferret wrote: What kills it is the ambiguity. People are always trying to find exceptions to a rule, and then contradicting it later. My two cents is that people get too uptight. They fight for what the government tells them to or their parents.

I don't fight because I'm uptight, I fight because I believe.

What incredible arrogance to proclaim that you are one of the few who fight because you believe. That is another major misconception that atheists have about Christians--that we are just followers who don't do our own original thinking. We do, most of us have critically examined Christianity, and yes, we actively choose it, not because we are uptight or because the government or parents tell us, but because we believe.

I don't honestly think most Christians have examined anything other than their sermon notes. Out of all the Christians I know, only the preachers have done any type of research past sermon notes. There are christian thinkers out there, but I believe they are the minority by far. It is easier to do something because someone tells you to. It is much harder to make a decision from your own thinking. I think that is why religions are so easy to follow - you need faith for many (if not all) of them and I have yet to see anyone's faith required any individual thought.

Isn't it fascinating that Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along.

While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH.

It is often inconcievable to some that simply by arriving at a different conclusion a person who disagrees with you may have employed a significant portion of their brain to do so, and simply not seen things as YOU DO.

And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief.

Atheism is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to and both geniuses, average folk and idiots share the belief, that is as far as I can go in attempting a counter generalization.

Note: I don't believe "... [all] Christians are so often believed to be brainless sheep blindly following along...". Many Christians are very intelligent. However, at least in my experience, I believe those to be the minority.
Quote: While those who portray the Christians as sheep, imply that THEY through the immense power of their superior intellect have someho managed to see through all of the religious crud and found THE TRUTH. Just to be clear to everyone, I never implied this. I have not yet found the truth, although I am searching for it.
Quote: And it is the height of generalization to suggest that ANYONE knows what MOST Christians believe let alone how they arrived at that belief. Again, I am basing what I said on my own personal experiences, which might not be a accurate accounting of Christians as a whole.
I do believe that people who follow anything blindly, without questioning what they are told or looking into it with their own eyes more, should step back and do so.

Then you should strike the first sentence since it presents no qualification and you go on to support the generalization by using your personal observations. Secondly if you ONLY make a determination by the very limited number of people you know why would you think it would have much value to anyone else?

You bring up a second contrast, being a Christian is EASY.

This is in total contrast to the another common statement that Christianity is RESTRICTIVE and EXCLUSIVE because it is nearly impossible to live the sort of life it demands of its followers.

First let me make clear that it is IMPOSSIBLE, not nearly impossible to live the sort of life Christianity demands.

Now let me ask a question, how can a religion which demands so much and excludes you for sins which can not be avoided be EASIER than making up my own rules?

I am not 'striking' anything for those who don't understand - I am sorry these people don't understand. I hold my right to make any generalizations about anyone based on my personal opinions as long as I don't actively discriminate these people because of these generalizations up front. I give everyone a chance to make an empression on me when I meet them. These people I am using as my frame of reference, which I have every right to do. Just as many christians do with other religious people or non-believers. Sadly, most christian people I meet and have met prove what I am saying. So let's move on......
I believe being a Christian is easy in the way that there is always an 'easy out'. It is hard (difficult, impossible, insert any word you wish here) to live up to non-human standards, true. However, when all you need it guilt to make you say 'sorry', 'forgive me', (again, insert any word you wish here) it is easy. Perhaps it would have made more sense to say, being a Christian is easy when all you have to do is continuously ask for forgiveness when you screw up. Don't misunderstand me; I believe there is much power in the act of forgiveness (both for the forgiven and the person doing the forgiving, as long as it is done honestly).

Quote: Now let me ask a question, how can a religion which demands so much and excludes you for sins which can not be avoided be EASIER than making up my own rules? Guilt makes people do a lot of things that they wouldn't do otherwise. I believe Christianity uses guilt to conform - I see it almost every church service, rather in person or on TV or radio. Now I know someone will try to lecture me on guilt and the holy spirit - no need to do so so please save your time. I am familiar personally with both guilt and the holy spirit, no matter what some people think. Here is the main reason why I think it is easier: Normally, when someone does something bad (speeding ticket, bar fight, stealing, etc), regardless if they ask for forgiveness or not, there is actual punishment (jail time, a fine, etc). Christians believe in this actual punishment as well, but also believe in hell as an ultimate punishment. Christians can 'avoid' this ultimate punishment (which is not proved to exists) by simply asking for forgiveness.
In addition, some preventative maintenance: I don't intend to respond to all of those who I may have upset or offended so please don't expect me to (but feel free to reply in kind). This is my belief and it stands as is, regardless of who likes it or not.



If you believe that one need only ASK for forgiveness then your understanding of Christianity is so superficial as to be unworthy of response.

And if you do not understand that a person who is motivated by guilt is sinning you continue to make shallower a superficial understanding of Christianity.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote:
If you believe that one need only ASK for forgiveness then your understanding of Christianity is so superficial as to be unworthy of response.

And if you do not understand that a person who is motivated by guilt is sinning you continue to make shallower a superficial understanding of Christianity.

Quote: If you believe that one need only ASK for forgiveness then your understanding of Christianity is so superficial as to be unworthy of response. Asking for forgiveness is a main part of Christianity. Some would say a starting 'step' of Christianity. Unfortunately, many Christians (wait for it.....that I have met)... only practice this aspect of it. "Forgiveness is all I need" they seem to say. Does this mean every Christian on the plant? Absolutely not.
Quote: And if you do not understand that a person who is motivated by guilt is sinning you continue to make shallower a superficial understanding of Christianity.
And of course you don't know what I believe. However, I don't prescribe to the idea that all guilt is feeling or emotion as a result of sin. Some guilt, yes. All guilt? No. If someone thinks that all guilt is a result of some sin, I believe them to have an even shallower understanding of what it is to be human. Guilt can be (as is being) used by people for power and control.
If these people want to continue to let guilt guide them, by all means continue. It doesn't matter to me.
Your opinions of my beliefs are your opinions and you are, of course, welcomed to them.

[LetsGetReal]

toddytodd wrote: Asking for forgiveness is a main part of Christianity. Some would say a starting 'step' of Christianity. Unfortunately, many Christians (wait for it.....that I have met)... only practice this aspect of it. "Forgiveness is all I need" they seem to say. Does this mean every Christian on the plant? Absolutely not. Then stop saying most christians if you mean the christians you have met. How hard is to say "from the christians I met forgiveness is the only aspect of it." Is that truly so hard to do.

LetsGetReal wrote: When you ask for forgiveness will God know if your sincere? toddytodd wrote: If He doesn't, then he wouldn't be God That is exactly my point the sincerity of the asking is truly determinant I believe on whether forgiveness will be granted. But, forgiveness is not the only answer a correction of ones erroneous ways would be another thing you must surely try to do. The confession of sins to the Lord is a necessary thing you must do.

[Gilbert1908]

[quote="toddytodd"] Gilbert1908 wrote:
If you believe that one need only ASK for forgiveness then your understanding of Christianity is so superficial as to be unworthy of response.

And if you do not understand that a person who is motivated by guilt is sinning you continue to make shallower a superficial understanding of Christianity.

Quote: If you believe that one need only ASK for forgiveness then your understanding of Christianity is so superficial as to be unworthy of response.

toddytodd wrote: Asking for forgiveness is a main part of Christianity. Some would say a starting 'step' of Christianity. Unfortunately, many Christians (wait for it.....that I have met)... only practice this aspect of it. "Forgiveness is all I need" they seem to say. Does this mean every Christian on the plant? Absolutely not.

There is simply NO christian dogma which addresses "asking for forgiveness". ANY person who is shallow enough to believe that simply by "asking" for forgiveness or saying "I'm sorry" has any meaning what so ever is kidding themselves. Even Catholic Confession is meaningless if approached ONLY as "method" of forgiveness.

Every Christian knows, if they have paid any attention, that our salvation has nothing to do with "asking", and everything to do with becoming.




Quote: And if you do not understand that a person who is motivated by guilt is sinning you continue to make shallower a superficial understanding of Christianity.

toddytodd wrote: And of course you don't know what I believe. However, I don't prescribe to the idea that all guilt is feeling or emotion as a result of sin. Some guilt, yes. All guilt? No. I do know what you wrote and assumed you meant it.

toddytodd wrote: Guilt makes people do a lot of things that they wouldn't do otherwise. I believe Christianity uses guilt to conform - I see it almost every church service, rather in person or on TV or radio
IF a Christian is motivated to change behavior or "ask for forgiveness" based upon his/her GUILT and not out of actual love for God then he has sinned again, that is my point and an irrefutable one at that.

[toddytodd]

LetsGetReal wrote: toddytodd wrote: Asking for forgiveness is a main part of Christianity. Some would say a starting 'step' of Christianity. Unfortunately, many Christians (wait for it.....that I have met)... only practice this aspect of it. "Forgiveness is all I need" they seem to say. Does this mean every Christian on the plant? Absolutely not. Then stop saying most christians if you mean the christians you have met. How hard is to say "from the christians I met forgiveness is the only aspect of it." Is that truly so hard to do.

You are missing the entire point. Obviously you can't understand it, as it is simple. I am sorry for that.
And I am sure you understand I can base my opinion on anything I want on any group I want at any time I want anywhere I want, regardless of who likes it or not. Therefore, I suggest we all move on.

[toddytodd]

Gilbert1908 wrote:
IF a Christian is motivated to change behavior or "ask for forgiveness" based upon his/her GUILT and not out of actual love for God then he has sinned again, that is my point and an irrefutable one at that.

Again, another opinion that is taken as such and respected, but not agreed with fully.

[LetsGetReal]

toddytodd wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: toddytodd wrote: Asking for forgiveness is a main part of Christianity. Some would say a starting 'step' of Christianity. Unfortunately, many Christians (wait for it.....that I have met)... only practice this aspect of it. "Forgiveness is all I need" they seem to say. Does this mean every Christian on the plant? Absolutely not. Then stop saying most christians if you mean the christians you have met. How hard is to say "from the christians I met forgiveness is the only aspect of it." Is that truly so hard to do.

You are missing the entire point. Obviously you can't understand it, as it is simple. I am sorry for that.
And I am sure you understand I can base my opinion on anything I want on any group I want at any time I want anywhere I want, regardless of who likes it or not. Therefore, I suggest we all move on. And you can I will just politely point out everytime that you make an illogical generalization about a group to broad to make such statements upon, ok? Oh and don't worry I know how simple it is, you say a broad generalization then try to take it back later on without actually taking it back.