Political Crossfire Forums

[Gremlin]

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060405112622982
http://miami.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/3931.php


Morgan Mineta wrote: During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President . . . said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"



Lets hear it, i wanna see how this is spun.

[Patriot911]

Gremlin wrote: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060405112622982
http://miami.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/3931.php


Morgan Mineta wrote: During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, "The plane is 50 miles out." "The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to "the plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the Vice President, "Do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President . . . said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?"


Lets hear it, i wanna see how this is spun.

No need to spin it at all. All we need to do is look at the full context to see that once again you've been suckered by your respective conspiracy sites.

I've found the full testimony. When one reads the question Mineta was asked (By the way its NORMAN Mineta, not Morgan. Do you do that so it is harder for people to research it?) just prior to his statment, it is clear that the order was to shoot down the plane inbound to Washington DC.

http://www.911commission.gov/archive/hearing2/9-11Commission_Hearing_2003-05-23.htm

Quote: MR. HAMILTON: We thank you for that. I wanted to focus just a moment on the Presidential Emergency Operating Center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it (The order to shoot down planes controlled by terrorists) during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.

MR. MINETA: And so I was not aware that that discussion had already taken place. But in listening to the conversation between the young man and the vice president, then at the time I didn't really recognize the significance of that.

And then later I heard of the fact that the airplanes had been scrambled from Langley to come up to DC, but those planes were still about 10 minutes away. And so then, at the time we heard about the airplane that went into Pennsylvania, then I thought, "Oh, my God, did we shoot it down?" And then we had to, with the vice president, go through the Pentagon to check that out.

So there you have it Gremlin. It is quite obvious that the quote taken out of context is designed to prove Cheney had ordered a stand down, when in reality he had given authorization to shoot down the plane. I don't know about you, but if I had just ordered the death of 80+ people, I would be a little edgy as well.

As for the time required to inform the Pentagon, the initial thought was that the plane was headed for the whitehouse which WAS evacuated. The plane passed up the whitehouse and made a 270 degree turn into the Pentagon. Out of curiosity, once they saw the plane headed for the capitol how much of the city do you think they should have evacuated? :roll:

[Gremlin]

Quote: MR. MINETA: ... I was made aware of it (The order to shoot down planes controlled by terrorists) during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon.



From 9:02 when flight 175 hit the south tower till 9:37 when the Pentagon was hit they knew full well that flight 77 was going to be used as a weapon. Now this 80 ton weapon full of jet fuel was headed to Washington DC and the order was to stand down.

Unfortunately all the spin in the world cant stop the bleeding by putting a band aid on a severed head.

It was bait Patriot911, and you ate it up. :wink:

[Todd D.]

Quote: Now this 80 ton weapon full of jet fuel was headed to Washington DC and the order was to stand down.
The interview that your own source cited contradicts this entirely.

[Patriot911]

Gremlin wrote: Quote: MR. MINETA: ... I was made aware of it (The order to shoot down planes controlled by terrorists) during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon.



From 9:02 when flight 175 hit the south tower till 9:37 when the Pentagon was hit they knew full well that flight 77 was going to be used as a weapon. Now this 80 ton weapon full of jet fuel was headed to Washington DC and the order was to stand down.

Unfortunately all the spin in the world cant stop the bleeding by putting a band aid on a severed head.

It was bait Patriot911, and you ate it up. :wink:

Sorry, Gremlin, but the only one with egg on their face is you. I've shown you EXACTLY where it states VERY CLEARLY that they are talking about the order to SHOOT DOWN ALL PLANES IN CONTROL OF THE TERRORISTS. Mineta then even goes on to mention that the planes had been scrambled. If there was a stand down order, why were planes scrambled?

Yet another prime example of Gremlin ignoring evidence that disproves his theories regardless of how relevant or solid the evidence is.

[Gremlin]

cognitive dissonance is a b****.
I actually feel sorry for you guys, i honestly do, im not just saying that.

[Patriot911]

:rofl: Then please explain to us how Mineta talking about the order to shoot down planes is somehow irrelevant to the situation? You've made the claim there was an order to stand down, yet here is clear, documented proof. Mind you, it is the SAME proof you used initially, just put into context. You haven't addressed the issue now that it has been put into context because it disproves your initial claim. Why? Why is it so hard for you to say "Gee. I was wrong. It does appear Cheney was talking about the order to shoot down the planes and not a stand down order". Is it because you don't want to appear as the gullible fool who has once again been suckered in by the conspiracy sites? A little bit of research (it took me all of 5 minutes) and you would have seen for yourself that what the conspiracy sites said didn't match up with what was actually said.

The only one here with cognitive dissonance appears to be you. You are in complete denial once your theories are shown to be baseless. You can't defend your position, so you turn to personal attacks. Pathetic.

[Gremlin]

The facts speak for themselves, and you being a liar doesnt change that.

[Patriot911]

Once again I ask you. How do you come to the conclusion that Cheney was talking about a stand down order when in the sentences before your quote they clearly are talking about orders to shoot down the aircraft and then Mineta goes on to state clearly that he believed initially that we had shot down Flight 93 because of those same orders. If he thought they were orders to stand down, he would not have thought that.

Come on Gremlin. Defend yourself.

[Gremlin]

Patriot911 wrote: Once again I ask you. How do you come to the conclusion that Cheney was talking about a stand down order when in the sentences before your quote they clearly are talking about orders to shoot down the aircraft and then Mineta goes on to state clearly that he believed initially that we had shot down Flight 93 because of those same orders. If he thought they were orders to stand down, he would not have thought that.

Come on Gremlin. Defend yourself.


the facts speak for themselves.

Quote: MR. MINETA: ... ... There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.

[Todd D.]

...the part of the transcript IMMEDIATELY preceding the text that you just quoted:
Quote: Interviewr: And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon.

Mineta flat out says that the order he is referring to is the order to shoot down the plane. YOU take that part of the quote out and then pass it off that "the order" that Mineta is referring to is a Stand Down order, even thoigh Mineta EXPLICITLY said the exact opposite of that.

Frankly, I have no clue how you can claim what you are claiming when the INTERVIEWEE HIMSELF says the exact opposite of what you say.

[Patriot911]

Gremlin wrote: Patriot911 wrote: Once again I ask you. How do you come to the conclusion that Cheney was talking about a stand down order when in the sentences before your quote they clearly are talking about orders to shoot down the aircraft and then Mineta goes on to state clearly that he believed initially that we had shot down Flight 93 because of those same orders. If he thought they were orders to stand down, he would not have thought that.

Come on Gremlin. Defend yourself.


the facts speak for themselves.

Quote: MR. MINETA: ... ... There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.


So how does that prove the order to stand down? The planes that were scrambled were still 10 minutes away. Do you think Cheney had some mystical powers to get the planes there quicker? Some space ray by which he could have shot the plane out of the sky?

At 50 miles out, Cheney would have only 10 minutes before the plane hit the Pentagon and at the time he still did not know the Pentagon was the target. The plane was still heading for the Whitehouse.

So yes, Gremlin. The facts speak for themselves.

Mineta CLEARLY states the order was to shoot down the plane, not stand down. At 10 miles out, Cheney snapped at the aide that the order to shoot down the plane still stood.

The countdown of miles was stressful because A> They knew there was nothing they could really do and B> Cheney had just ordered the deaths of 80+ American civilians.

The Pentagon was the final destination of Flight 77, but this was not known until too late.

So which facts lead you to claim that the order was to stand down? Unless you can prove there was anything that COULD shoot down the plane that was not used, then you are only proving your cognitive dissonance by denying one part of a person's testimony while accepting another.

You can't say Cheney not warning the Pentagon was proof because he didn't know the Pentagon was the final target. Mineta's statement wasn't that they knew the plane was headed for the Pentagon, but that it was the plane that flew into the Pentagon. Besides, what good would it have done besides caused mass panic. The Pentagon has 26,000 workers in it. Over 17 miles of corridors. How do you expect to get all these people to safety in under a half hour if you assume Cheney somehow knew the Pentagon was the target right after the second attack on the WTC? What could the Pentagon have done if they had known they were the target?

[Gremlin]

Ever heard of Andrews or Bolling Air Force Base?

Phoenix Missile wrote: Range - In excess of 100 nautical miles (115 statute miles, 184 km)
Speed - In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph)


50 miles for a Phoenix missile is a short jog.

Even though you got this story as a nice cover to believe the most protected airspace in the world didnt have missile batteries using pave paws installed is loony. Aircraft without transponders are automatically alerted as this story shows.

Quote: On June 9, the Beechcraft King Air was flying with a broken transponder, a device that transmits an identifying signal picked up by ground controllers. After takeoff, the pilot, as required, notified Federal Aviation Administration officials in Ohio about the problem at 2:56 p.m.


Dicky boy had more then enough time, 35 minutes to be exact.

[Straudos]

Are you suggesting they should have launched a phoenix missile at the plane from 50 miles away? 50/3000 = 1/60. 1/60 * 3600 seconds = 1 minute. It would have taken the missile a full 60 seconds to hit its target, assuming they could even aim at the target from that distance, which I doubt, by the time the missile even reached the vicinity of where it was aimed at, the target would naturally not be anywhere around there. And of course they can't speculate where the plane might be after a full minute.

My guess is when they say "long range" they mean it can be launched at a nearby target, and will hunt down that target even when the target tries to escape at fast speeds.

[Patriot911]

Gremlin wrote: Ever heard of Andrews or Bolling Air Force Base?

Phoenix Missile wrote: Range - In excess of 100 nautical miles (115 statute miles, 184 km)
Speed - In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph)


50 miles for a Phoenix missile is a short jog.

Not debating that. Now show me a fighter was in position to fire a Phoenix missile at flight 77.

Gremlin wrote: Even though you got this story as a nice cover to believe the most protected airspace in the world didnt have missile batteries using pave paws installed is loony. Aircraft without transponders are automatically alerted as this story shows.

Quote: On June 9, the Beechcraft King Air was flying with a broken transponder, a device that transmits an identifying signal picked up by ground controllers. After takeoff, the pilot, as required, notified Federal Aviation Administration officials in Ohio about the problem at 2:56 p.m.

:lol: You point to an article POST 9/11 to show the reaction to a plane without a transponder? Come on, Gremlin. That is way cheesy even for you! You're better than THAT!

Gremlin wrote: Dicky boy had more then enough time, 35 minutes to be exact.

He did? How do you figure this? Until the second plane hit, nobody really knew we were under attack. On top of this, NORAD wasn't told about flight 77 until 9:27 a.m. They are the ones responsible for sending up the alert aircraft and did so upon notification of Flight 77. They had 10 minutes to get the craft airborn, acquire lock on Flight 77 and get in a position to fire their missiles. Hmmm.... 10 minutes out..... That would put flight 77 at about 50 miles out.... right about the time they started notification to Cheney about the position. Amazing how all the pieces start falling together.

Cheney himself didn't get to the bunker until shortly after 9. I am not sure how you expected him to be briefed on the situation and then DO anything about it before Flight 77 hit. Maybe he was suppose to go outside with his trusty shotgun?

You have failed yet again, Gremlin, to show that there was any way Flight 77 COULD have been shot down which could (not does, just could) indicate a stand down order was given. Without being able to prove there was SOMETHING around that could shoot down flight 77 and was NOT used, your theory disintegrates given the testimony by Mineta.

And again, you have failed to address the fact that Mineta specifically contradicts your theory that "the order" was to stand down instead of shoot down. What is it about Mineta's statements that makes his comments about the order to shoot down flight 77 a lie, but his other statements you have to make inferences from valid?

[Innoova]

Gremlin wrote: Ever heard of Andrews or Bolling Air Force Base?

Phoenix Missile wrote: Range - In excess of 100 nautical miles (115 statute miles, 184 km)
Speed - In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph)


50 miles for a Phoenix missile is a short jog.

Even though you got this story as a nice cover to believe the most protected airspace in the world didnt have missile batteries using pave paws installed is loony. Aircraft without transponders are automatically alerted as this story shows.

Quote: On June 9, the Beechcraft King Air was flying with a broken transponder, a device that transmits an identifying signal picked up by ground controllers. After takeoff, the pilot, as required, notified Federal Aviation Administration officials in Ohio about the problem at 2:56 p.m.


Dicky boy had more then enough time, 35 minutes to be exact.


See you fail again...

you should do a bit of research.

The phoenix missile is only carried on one type of jet.

an F-14 tomcat. (at that time)

There are no F-14's at andrews or bolling.

Nearest F-14 would be at docked ships in ocean by virginia beach.

which would take more than 10 minutes to get one stocked, piloted and targetting a plane in DC.

[Gremlin]

Patriot911 wrote: Gremlin wrote: Ever heard of Andrews or Bolling Air Force Base?

Phoenix Missile wrote: Range - In excess of 100 nautical miles (115 statute miles, 184 km)
Speed - In excess of 3,000 mph (4,800 kmph)


50 miles for a Phoenix missile is a short jog.

Not debating that. Now show me a fighter was in position to fire a Phoenix missile at flight 77.



Apparently i was wrong about the Phoenix missile.
Arent the HQ's great. :wink:


Quote: Gremlin wrote: Even though you got this story as a nice cover to believe the most protected airspace in the world didnt have missile batteries using pave paws installed is loony. Aircraft without transponders are automatically alerted as this story shows.

Quote: On June 9, the Beechcraft King Air was flying with a broken transponder, a device that transmits an identifying signal picked up by ground controllers. After takeoff, the pilot, as required, notified Federal Aviation Administration officials in Ohio about the problem at 2:56 p.m.

:lol: You point to an article POST 9/11 to show the reaction to a plane without a transponder? Come on, Gremlin. That is way cheesy even for you! You're better than THAT!

Gremlin wrote: Dicky boy had more then enough time, 35 minutes to be exact.

He did? How do you figure this? Until the second plane hit, nobody really knew we were under attack. On top of this, NORAD wasn't told about flight 77 until 9:27 a.m. They are the ones responsible for sending up the alert aircraft and did so upon notification of Flight 77. They had 10 minutes to get the craft airborn, acquire lock on Flight 77 and get in a position to fire their missiles. Hmmm.... 10 minutes out..... That would put flight 77 at about 50 miles out.... right about the time they started notification to Cheney about the position. Amazing how all the pieces start falling together.



The transponder was off in Flight 77 for 21 minutes after the 2nd tower was hit until the Pentagon strike.



Quote: Cheney himself didn't get to the bunker until shortly after 9. I am not sure how you expected him to be briefed on the situation and then DO anything about it before Flight 77 hit. Maybe he was suppose to go outside with his trusty shotgun?



Modern technology trumps this claim. A simple car radio will report the strikes on the WTC. Why would he be headed to the bunker if nothing is wrong? Why would he not be keeping in touch with the outside world and the happenings?

If he waited till he got to the bunker to be briefed he is unfit to lead.


Quote: You have failed yet again, Gremlin, to show that there was any way Flight 77 COULD have been shot down which could (not does, just could) indicate a stand down order was given. Without being able to prove there was SOMETHING around that could shoot down flight 77 and was NOT used, your theory disintegrates given the testimony by Mineta.



There was 2 planes left in the sky with the transponder off, putting 2 and 2 together is not hard.


Quote: And again, you have failed to address the fact that Mineta specifically contradicts your theory that "the order" was to stand down instead of shoot down. What is it about Mineta's statements that makes his comments about the order to shoot down flight 77 a lie, but his other statements you have to make inferences from valid?


Oh well ya got me, it wasnt a stand down order, now go around cheering your praise. I came across this tidbit of info and didnt read it all the way threw. After you responded I shot myself in the foot by not reading your rebutt… :lol: …At least im man enough to admit when im wrong, hasnt been the 1st time and it wont be the last.

[Patriot911]

Gremlin wrote: The transponder was off in Flight 77 for 21 minutes after the 2nd tower was hit until the Pentagon strike.
So what is your point? It took the FAA another 11 minutes to notify NORAD that Flight 77 was hijacked. That still doesn't give NORAD enough time to get fighters in the air and in position to shoot down the planes.

Gremlin wrote: Quote: Cheney himself didn't get to the bunker until shortly after 9. I am not sure how you expected him to be briefed on the situation and then DO anything about it before Flight 77 hit. Maybe he was suppose to go outside with his trusty shotgun?

Modern technology trumps this claim. A simple car radio will report the strikes on the WTC. Why would he be headed to the bunker if nothing is wrong? Why would he not be keeping in touch with the outside world and the happenings?

If he waited till he got to the bunker to be briefed he is unfit to lead.
According to testimony, the secret service "escorted" Cheney to the bunker shortly after the second plane hit at 9:03. And by briefed I mean given information that the public at the time didn't know.

So let me get this straight.... once the second plane hit the tower, they should have briefed Cheney and THEN taken him to the bunker? :lol:

Gremlin wrote: Quote: You have failed yet again, Gremlin, to show that there was any way Flight 77 COULD have been shot down which could (not does, just could) indicate a stand down order was given. Without being able to prove there was SOMETHING around that could shoot down flight 77 and was NOT used, your theory disintegrates given the testimony by Mineta.


There was 2 planes left in the sky with the transponder off, putting 2 and 2 together is not hard.
How does this prove there was anything around that could have shot down flight 77? The FAA knew flight 77 was hijacked and 11 minutes after the transponder was turned off, they notified NORAD. NORAD scrambled the fighters, but t minutes was too little of an amount of time to get the planes in position to shoot down flight 77.

Gremlin wrote: Quote: And again, you have failed to address the fact that Mineta specifically contradicts your theory that "the order" was to stand down instead of shoot down. What is it about Mineta's statements that makes his comments about the order to shoot down flight 77 a lie, but his other statements you have to make inferences from valid?

Oh well ya got me, it wasnt a stand down order, now go around cheering your praise. I came across this tidbit of info and didnt read it all the way threw. After you responded I shot myself in the foot by not reading your rebutt… :lol: …At least im man enough to admit when im wrong, hasnt been the 1st time and it wont be the last.

Well, it is nice to see you can be a stand up guy after all. :ok:

[PheelGoodInc]

But wait, I thought a missile hit the pentagon?