Political Crossfire Forums

rytis · Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 1239 Location: back in USA

AceKingQueenJack wrote: Who was the best leader of any country ever. i think it's either Ronald Reagan or Winston Churchill.
i think you are ******* to leave Adolf Hitler out.... it';s like americans trying to run elections in Iraq with only candidates they decide to allow in, leaving out most favourite to Iraqi people because they hate americans...

Adolph Hitler was best leader in a long time...that is why he had to be turned into a monster racist and destroyed, because he posed a thread to a ruling class.

King of Antarctica · Joined: 12 Jun 2006 Posts: 15 Location: Lawton

rytis wrote: AceKingQueenJack wrote: Who was the best leader of any country ever. i think it's either Ronald Reagan or Winston Churchill.
i think you are ******* to leave Adolf Hitler out.... it';s like americans trying to run elections in Iraq with only candidates they decide to allow in, leaving out most favourite to Iraqi people because they hate americans...

Adolph Hitler was best leader in a long time...that is why he had to be turned into a monster racist and destroyed, because he posed a thread to a ruling class.
Adolph Hitler was a abomination u can not be considered a great leader if u order massive genocide of Innocent people because of the faith

I believe Alexander was the greatest of all time he connected and ruled almost all of the known world at the time then continued to discover places unknown to the Europeans.

rytis · Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 1239 Location: back in USA

i can not talk to you if you believe such bs

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7718 Location: Manchestar, innit

Churchill ordered the slaughter of protestors. But he got his aolcoholic arse in the right place at the right time, and he is venerated, long after the fact.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

I like George Washington.

But maybe Winston Churchill.

Can't decide.

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5521 Location: Dreamland, NC

Churchill is defiantely the best on that list.

He was able to hold together that imbattled island. Britain was very very close to giving up all together. If it wasn't for the resolve during those difficult times, it is questionable whether we would have been able to win WWII so quickly.

He was also a tremendous orator. Which is an absolute must for a great leader. Among my favorite quotes:

“If you are going through hell, keep going.”
-Winston Churchill

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
-Winston Churchill

“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. “
-Winston Churchill

“Some regard private enterprise as if it were a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look upon it as a cow that they can milk. Only a handful see it for what it really is - the strong horse that pulls the whole cart.”
-Winston Churchill

“You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.” Winston Churchill

Wyatt Earp · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 358

Bill Clinton

He was to busy with Monica then to mess up the country.

Wyatt Earp · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 358

politicalmojo wrote: Churchill is defiantely the best on that list.

He was able to hold together that imbattled island. Britain was very very close to giving up all together. If it wasn't for the resolve during those difficult times, it is questionable whether we would have been able to win WWII so quickly.

He was also a tremendous orator. Which is an absolute must for a great leader. Among my favorite quotes:

“If you are going through hell, keep going."
-Winston Churchill

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
-Winston Churchill

“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. “
-Winston Churchill

“Some regard private enterprise as if it were a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look upon it as a cow that they can milk. Only a handful see it for what it really is - the strong horse that pulls the whole cart."
-Winston Churchill

“You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill

Churchill? In WWI he knew about the German submarine wolf pack waiting for the Lusitania off the coast yet he did nothing any tried to drag America into that war. Nothing against him but all leaders have there dark side.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject:

Wyatt Earp wrote:
Churchill? In WWI he knew about the German submarine wolf pack waiting for the Lusitania off the coast yet he did nothing any tried to drag America into that war. Nothing against him but all leaders have there dark side.

I find that surprising, given one of Winston Churchill's other quotes:

“America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the world war. If you hadn’t entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by facism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war all these ‘isms’ wouldn’t today be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government, and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over 1 million British, French, American, and other lives.”

Poon · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3820 Location: US

King of Antarctica wrote: rytis wrote: AceKingQueenJack wrote: Who was the best leader of any country ever. i think it's either Ronald Reagan or Winston Churchill.
i think you are ******* to leave Adolf Hitler out.... it';s like americans trying to run elections in Iraq with only candidates they decide to allow in, leaving out most favourite to Iraqi people because they hate americans...

Adolph Hitler was best leader in a long time...that is why he had to be turned into a monster racist and destroyed, because he posed a thread to a ruling class.
Adolph Hitler was a abomination u can not be considered a great leader if u order massive genocide of Innocent people because of the faith

I believe Alexander was the greatest of all time he connected and ruled almost all of the known world at the time then continued to discover places unknown to the Europeans. WTF does "Known World" means? Known to whom?

Poon · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3820 Location: US

Wyatt Earp wrote: Bill Clinton

He was to busy with Monica then to mess up the country. That would have been my choice, the government that does least is best government...

Poon · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3820 Location: US

Eynon81 wrote: Liu Bang's gotta be up there....to rise from the rank of middle-class village headman to emperor of China. True Qin Shi Hunag unified China, but Liu Bang made it work.

I mean the Chinese people(Han) are named after the dynasty he founded.
Why do you have to be so Pro - Chinese? :lol:

Its easy to be Ethnocentric, and choose heros from one's own native Land and Culture. No offence to those who harp about the Great Roman Empires, but unless you count the Greek Empires with it, the Romans really didn't last that long compared to others. As to size of territory controlled, although it was longer-lived than say the Greek Empire, the size was mediocre. The Persians and the Chinese were quite advanced for their time, and excluding the periods of Disunity and periods of Dynastic power transfers, the size of those Empires were probably comparable or even greater than that of Rome. Romans never seemed to master the art of Archery on Horseback, which was the skill that allowed the Mongols to forge one of the largest Land Empires in the History of Mankind. Even with the indominatable Cavalry Archers, they still needed Chinese and Muslim engineers to build their seige engines. So in a Nut Shell, yeah the Romans and Greek were a force to contend with, but they really weren't the Center of the Universe as some would like to view them to be.

A Student of The System · Joined: 03 Jul 2006 Posts: 12 Location: New York

Winston Churchill was one of the greatest leaders of all time. He was the only one who saw Hitler for what he was. If Neville Chamberlain had become Prime Minister like so many wanted, then the appeasement would have continued and Germany would have gotten overwhelmingly strong. Churchill saved Britain despite his human errors, such as drinking and smoking cigars. Perhaps this aspect of his personality allowed him to be recognizable and the people could relate to him in the times of dire need.

eynon · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject:

TwinkieDP wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Liu Bang's gotta be up there....to rise from the rank of middle-class village headman to emperor of China. True Qin Shi Hunag unified China, but Liu Bang made it work.

I mean the Chinese people(Han) are named after the dynasty he founded.
Why do you have to be so Pro - Chinese? :lol:

Its easy to be Ethnocentric, and choose heros from one's own native Land and Culture. No offence to those who harp about the Great Roman Empires, but unless you count the Greek Empires with it, the Romans really didn't last that long compared to others. As to size of territory controlled, although it was longer-lived than say the Greek Empire, the size was mediocre. The Persians and the Chinese were quite advanced for their time, and excluding the periods of Disunity and periods of Dynastic power transfers, the size of those Empires were probably comparable or even greater than that of Rome. Romans never seemed to master the art of Archery on Horseback, which was the skill that allowed the Mongols to forge one of the largest Land Empires in the History of Mankind. Even with the indominatable Cavalry Archers, they still needed Chinese and Muslim engineers to build their seige engines. So in a Nut Shell, yeah the Romans and Greek were a force to contend with, but they really weren't the Center of the Universe as some would like to view them to be.

Chinese history is cool...... 8:)

eynon · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject:

thundertaker wrote: Wyatt Earp wrote:
Churchill? In WWI he knew about the German submarine wolf pack waiting for the Lusitania off the coast yet he did nothing any tried to drag America into that war. Nothing against him but all leaders have there dark side.

I find that surprising, given one of Winston Churchill's other quotes:

“America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the world war. If you hadn’t entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by facism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war all these ‘isms’ wouldn’t today be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government, and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over 1 million British, French, American, and other lives.”

he's right, we should've stayed out, Wilson was a fool who's actions have lead to the deaths of Hundreds of thousands of Americans over-seas......though I do think the Czars would've still been overthrown, still that's not America's concern considering the Soviets would've been contained by Germany and Japan.

We should've thrown in with the Allies early on or just stayed the hell out!

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject:

A Student of The System wrote: Winston Churchill was one of the greatest leaders of all time. He was the only one who saw Hitler for what he was. If Neville Chamberlain had become Prime Minister like so many wanted, then the appeasement would have continued and Germany would have gotten overwhelmingly strong. Churchill saved Britain despite his human errors, such as drinking and smoking cigars. Perhaps this aspect of his personality allowed him to be recognizable and the people could relate to him in the times of dire need.

Neville Chamberlain WAS the Prime Minister in 1939 when Britain declared war on Germany.
Chamberlain has gotten a lot of unfair press from the likes of Churchill (who was an historian amongst many other things). The fact is, Chamberlain new the sorry state of Britain's armed forces in the 1930s and was working furiously to re-arm whilst negotiating with Hitler, he also took the unprecedented step of introducing peace-time conscription in 1938. Chamberlain resigned in 1940 due to ill-health (he had a terminal brain tumour). Even when Britain did go to war, the events of 1940 up until the evacuation of Dunkirk showed that Britain's armed forces were not ready to take on the Nazi war machine when they did, but they would have been even less ready if Chamberlain was the man he is often potrayed as by Churchill-worshippers, particularly in the States....

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

thundertaker wrote: A Student of The System wrote: Winston Churchill was one of the greatest leaders of all time. He was the only one who saw Hitler for what he was. If Neville Chamberlain had become Prime Minister like so many wanted, then the appeasement would have continued and Germany would have gotten overwhelmingly strong. Churchill saved Britain despite his human errors, such as drinking and smoking cigars. Perhaps this aspect of his personality allowed him to be recognizable and the people could relate to him in the times of dire need.

Neville Chamberlain WAS the Prime Minister in 1939 when Britain declared war on Germany.
Chamberlain has gotten a lot of unfair press from the likes of Churchill (who was an historian amongst many other things). The fact is, Chamberlain new the sorry state of Britain's armed forces in the 1930s and was working furiously to re-arm whilst negotiating with Hitler, he also took the unprecedented step of introducing peace-time conscription in 1938. Chamberlain resigned in 1940 due to ill-health (he had a terminal brain tumour). Even when Britain did go to war, the events of 1940 up until the evacuation of Dunkirk showed that Britain's armed forces were not ready to take on the Nazi war machine when they did, but they would have been even less ready if Chamberlain was the man he is often potrayed as by Churchill-worshippers, particularly in the States....

There's something to that but I'd say there are a few caveats; you can definitely view the 1938 Munich agreement as Chamberlain buying time for Britain to rearm. And it was a crucial breathing space. However Chamberlain was a senior member of the preceding government under Stanley Baldwin that really should shoulder much of the blame for British appeasement and unpreparedness. And when Chamberlain was war leader, the British war effort was lacklustre. We did nothing for the Poles for whom we'd gone to war. In weeks of the Polish campaign, the Allies could have made a real difference to the outcome of the entire war IMO. Chamberlain still clearly held out hopes of a negotiated settlement.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

bob.appleyard wrote: Churchill ordered the slaughter of protestors. But he got his aolcoholic arse in the right place at the right time, and he is venerated, long after the fact.

Bob, which protestors? Am genuinely interested; I'm aware of the litany of WC's not-so-finest hours ie Gallipoli/tanks on the streets of Glasgow/intervention in Russia/Gandhi/abdication crisis/Norway/Anthony Eden. I'm just not sure to what you're referring.

But as you say - he was in the right place at the right time - for that I think he's the best leader.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: you can definitely view the 1938 Munich agreement as Chamberlain buying time for Britain to rearm.

Get out of here.

As for Churchill
Quote: he was in the right place at the right time -

And he did the right thing. That is were his greatness lie.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject:

Quote: Get out of here.

Why are you so dismissive? He was re-arming Britain and preparing her for war with Germany. British forces were in a sorry state in 1938, and if we had gone to war in 1938 over the Czechs, we would have been whupped even harder than we were in 1940.......