Political Crossfire Forums

[tim109]

Wyatt Earp wrote: tim109 wrote: Alexander the Great ruled the Entire world at a very young age. No other leader can claim that.

Yea, Ok. I am sure some plains Indians in North America were worshipping him also.
Considering that the entire world he actually knew about and was important, he did rule. Come on, nobody knew about the Indians in North America at that time.

[Beyond The Call of Duty]

tim109 wrote: Wyatt Earp wrote: tim109 wrote: Alexander the Great ruled the Entire world at a very young age. No other leader can claim that.

Yea, Ok. I am sure some plains Indians in North America were worshipping him also.
Considering that the entire world he actually knew about and was important, he did rule. Come on, nobody knew about the Indians in North America at that time.

He was probably being either one: an idiot or two: sarcastic. I vote for number one

[Wizard From Oz]

I am fascinated that of a list of 7 we have 4 American presidents and two Britsh Prime Ministers

Of that list only two didn't lead in the 20th Century

[banzai79]

I vote for Charles Martel, partly because his actions have influenced a thousand years of history and partly because few remember him.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: I vote for Charles Martel, partly because his actions have influenced a thousand years of history and partly because few remember him

Ooooooooooooooooohhhh nice one. I'll see your Martel and raise you a
Charlemagne :shock:

[Poon]

banzai79 wrote: I vote for Charles Martel, partly because his actions have influenced a thousand years of history and partly because few remember him. Who ? :?

[Poon]

I admire the Indian civilization (not native Americans). They produced some of the most profound mathematical principles, as well as credited with inventing international chess...

[banzai79]

I also thought of Charlegmane, but I feel he was really just finishing Martel's plan.

Twinkie, Charles Martel organized the Franks while the Umayyad Caliphate (early arabic empire) was running amok in western Europe. He is considered to have been instrumental in stopping a massive arabic army at Tours around 730 A.D. Known as the savior of Europe and of Christianity, whether you hate or love those two things they have certainly impacted everyone's life, no matter where you live.

[The Comrade]

Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus

[evil muppet]

OK, I am going to have to criticize all of these. NONE of these people should have anything like the word great attached to their names.

Winston Churchill, according to Churchill, Mussolini was a great leader and praised him and the fascist system he built. He was responsible for the military disaster at Gallipoli and

Ronald Reagan--Well Reagan was pretty much a hypocrite. People credit him for ending the Cold War. That is why he is so 'great'. Of course other people say it was Gorby that deserves credit, though in my honest opinion, neither deserve any credit. Why not give credit where credit is due. How about the Russian people for standing up against the Coup. How about Lech Wałęsa and Solidarity? They ended the Cold War, not Reagan and not Gorbechev.

Franklin D. Roosevelt -- How is this guy great? He expanded the size of the federal government and govt power. Created unconstitutional program after program. Was close to being a fascist himself. He prolonged the Great Depression by his disasterous New Deal programs. That alone should get him voted worse president in the US. On top of that, he steared America into a very costly and bloody war.

Margaret Thatcher-- Come on! What did she ever do? Fought a war with Argentina over Penguin breeding ground and that was about it. She eventually got thrown out of office for trying to impose a Poll Tax. Smart.

Julius Ceasar -- He started a civil war for the sake of his ego and ended up destroying the Roman Republic. Definately a guy we want to emulate.

Abraham Lincoln -- Here is another winner. Started an extremely bloody and costly war that devastated half of the country for what? To enforce a tariff! It wasn't about slavery folks, Lincoln never freed a single slave. He waged an unnecessary war. Had his generals engage in a ruthless campaign against civilians. Suspended habeas corpus [power reserved solely to congress] Rigged elections. Shut down newspapers. Had political opponents arrested.

John F. Kennedy -- Let me sum up JFKs life. Daddy was Rich. Sinks a boat. Runs for Congress. Has someone ghostwrite a book for him. Becomes President. Bay of Pigs. Almost gets in a nuclear war over Cuba. Got shot in the head. This guy did pretty much nothing and except for an excellent PR campaign would have been mostly forgot.
-------

So what makes any of these people great? They fought some wars. Killed a lot of people. Almost killed a lot of people. Said some pretty words and made everyone go all gah-gah. These people are tyrants, demagogues or just plain incompetents.

I find it interesting some of the names people are picking. Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander the Great, Mao Zedong, Ghangas Khan. These are people who made their names by being military leaders. To quote Yoda. "Wars not make one great."

Why is it the leaders who are fighting the wars. what about the leaders who reigned over a period of peace and prosperity? How about someone like Franklin Pierce. There was no devastating wars. The country was at peace. There was prosperity. but he didn't send anyone off on a glorious crusade.


Moses
Pope John Paul II
Lech Wałęsa
Mother Terresa
Ben Franklin
Thomas Jefferson
Ghandi
Martin Luther
Martin Luther King
Confucious
JESUS CHRIST

[DSwain]

Some of you people need to lighten up on the OP; he must have done something right for this thread to be running at six pages. If you don't like his western / C20 centric list, then he has kindly added the option OTHER. Alternately, start your own thread or give the list of options you'd have liked to have seen instead (as evil muppet has, above).

[thundertaker]

Quote: Margaret Thatcher-- Come on! What did she ever do? Fought a war with Argentina over Penguin breeding ground and that was about it. She eventually got thrown out of office for trying to impose a Poll Tax. Smart.

She did more than that. She halted Britain's terminal decline and reversed it. Before Thatcher, we were the 'Sick man of Europe' with an economy that had sunk below Italy's........

[Trevor Colby]

AceKingQueenJack wrote: Who was the best leader of any country ever. i think it's either Ronald Reagan or Winston Churchill.
I would say Genghis Khan.

[evil muppet]

thundertaker wrote: Quote: Margaret Thatcher-- Come on! What did she ever do? Fought a war with Argentina over Penguin breeding ground and that was about it. She eventually got thrown out of office for trying to impose a Poll Tax. Smart.

She did more than that. She halted Britain's terminal decline and reversed it. Before Thatcher, we were the 'Sick man of Europe' with an economy that had sunk below Italy's........

so you turn an economy around and you are candidate for the Greatest Leader of all time award?

So she was lucky enough to be in office when the economy got better. Big deal. I still see nothing great about her.

[citizen_X]

1) Chinngis Khan, the man who ruled most of Eurasia, he always tried peace before war, his adversary's provoked him to attack, real leaders are on the front lines with their own troops not hiding behind wooden desks like most of the voting selection we had.

2)For the wooden desk leaders of war, Hitler, no doubt about it, cared for the expansion of Germany, too bad he had too many horse testicle injections when his thinking could of have been used better.

3)For the weak and stupid, King Richard III of Gloucester, he was the first to initiate welfare and unemployment insurance.

4)For the most compassionate, it would have to be Gandhi, to oust Britain out of its crown jewel of the empire, pretty amazing, well considering that GB was outta resources after WWII.

5)Ok, before the Americans start jumping on me, better mention one,hmmmmmmmm, not a whole lot to choose from, yes I have one, William Henry Harrison, the shortest term of a president, he got the hell outta the country and the planet, probably after discovering how corrupt it was.

6)The guy who discovered/invented/commercialized religion, who knows where this guy came from, but he has the whole planet tied up in a web of BS.

7)Come on, Andy Weshapaut, why not, creating the Illuminati, why not, still ruling today, hahahahahahaha.

8)All the chiefs and leaders of New World natives, so in touch with the land and did all they can to protect from exploitation.

9)Samson Hartland of the Yukon Territory, not a great leader, great for a laugh though, tried to run for mayor of Whitehorse, 300 votes, lowest turnout in history.

10)The next great leader is in one of my testicles, swimming around, unfortunately I blew that load on your daughters face last night, so much potential died on her face.

[superskippy]

Quote: Winston Churchill, according to Churchill, Mussolini was a great leader and praised him and the fascist system he built. He was responsible for the military disaster at Gallipoli and

While I posess no information on these quotes of Mussolini, it should not be upon a critique of a regime but how he ran his own nation that qualifies whether or not he was 'great'. Regardless of what you may think of him he held Britian together and led the lone surviving Western Nation in Europe to survival and eventual victory. He forsaw the conflict with the Soviet Union and did all he could to prepare for that day and his prepirations if not so much in a tangible aided enormously on the political and moral way. His actions led to the end of the Malay and Kenya rebellions allowing Britian to severe control on it's own terms while maintaing a commonwealth and all the benefits of that probably the best outcome they could have had.

He was a wartime leader of amazing and inspiring quality and a politician and leader of a nation of great quality. The world agreed and when he died the largest assemblage of statesmen ever seen gathered for his funeral as nearly every nation on the planet sent a reprisentative to mourn his death.

Quote: Julius Ceasar -- He started a civil war for the sake of his ego and ended up destroying the Roman Republic. Definately a guy we want to emulate.

Destroyed the Republic and made an Empire that became the most powerful and great this world has ever known and it lasted for centuries after his death. He was probably one of the greatest military commanders of all time, and his agricultural reforms probably saved Rome and built a stable and powerful middle class.

Quote: Abraham Lincoln -- Here is another winner. Started an extremely bloody and costly war that devastated half of the country for what? To enforce a tariff! It wasn't about slavery folks, Lincoln never freed a single slave. He waged an unnecessary war. Had his generals engage in a ruthless campaign against civilians. Suspended habeas corpus [power reserved solely to congress] Rigged elections. Shut down newspapers. Had political opponents arrested.

The war was never about slavery though it's root causes lie with it, it was a war to preserve the Union to keep the United States of America as just that, the United States of America, you can debate about whether he had the technical legal right to do so, but you are a complete and utter fool to think it was wrong that the Union was preserved. This was a war for the very survival of the United State the very soul of the country, if he had to use a heavy hand to beat down the copperheads and keep the war going then so be it. Anything less that resulted in the dissolution of the Union would be a catastrophe and have him remembered as the worst failure of a president America has ever had.

Quote: Why is it the leaders who are fighting the wars. what about the leaders who reigned over a period of peace and prosperity? How about someone like Franklin Pierce. There was no devastating wars. The country was at peace. There was prosperity. but he didn't send anyone off on a glorious crusade.

Because to be frank we admire and wonder at those men who have been now forever shaped as Titans for riding off to war and forging nations and leaving an imprint of brilliance that we have never known.

We are astonished and admire Alexander for his ability to drive all the way to India a feat we mere mortals have tried to comprihend since that time, and how he with his sole willpower held together an empire of enormous size and set in place the foundation of cities and government's that even today influence where his feet tred.

We admire Napoleon because he astounded the world, because he rose France out of the ashes of the revolution and shattered it's enemies the brilliance of his campaigns in Europe and how this one man reached up and struck the scale of Europe forever changing it and unseating the old system of Europe forever. How he created the system of laws and code which have governed Europe for centuries now, and how this one man became a sole power of change and war. Make no mistake the geographic borders may have been set after his defeat, but Napoloen shaped Europe.

I could go on but I think you must know what I mean, while the ideal may be for us to admire the peacemakers and those who reigned without conflict, without pursuit of power, and without war, but we dont. We admire those men who seized the reigns of power and shaped the world and history, these are the men who marched to war and took the knife and carved out the world for themselves, these are the men who built nations and held them together through their willpower and acumen.

We will never stop admiring these people and calling them great, it may not be what might be considered a humane ideal but it is the truth.

[evil muppet]

Saving the Union was worth over half a million lives?

[DSwain]

evil muppet wrote: thundertaker wrote: Quote: Margaret Thatcher-- Come on! What did she ever do? Fought a war with Argentina over Penguin breeding ground and that was about it. She eventually got thrown out of office for trying to impose a Poll Tax. Smart.

She did more than that. She halted Britain's terminal decline and reversed it. Before Thatcher, we were the 'Sick man of Europe' with an economy that had sunk below Italy's........

so you turn an economy around and you are candidate for the Greatest Leader of all time award?

So she was lucky enough to be in office when the economy got better. Big deal. I still see nothing great about her.

That's Thundertaker's opinion - as a Briton, he's entitled to it. Thatcher wasn't 'lucky' about the economy - she did stop/reverse terminal decline in Britain. That's important to us Brits who recall Mrs Thatcher with some regard and who lived through that decline. To some of us, that would qualify as Greatest Leader. It's opinion, that's all.

I don't see what Pope John Paul II did to qualify as the greatest leader ever, but you're entitled to that opinion - can you explain it to me?

(NB - I did not vote for Mrs T)

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

evil muppet wrote: Saving the Union was worth over half a million lives?

I don't understand how totally destorying a whole region and nearly destorying an entire country constitutes as "saving the Union".

When the South seceeded they were no longer apart of the United States, so how could destroying them save the Union?

[evil muppet]

Quote: I don't see what Pope John Paul II did to qualify as the greatest leader ever, but you're entitled to that opinion - can you explain it to me?

I actually threw him up there because he seemed like the opposite of many of the other choices up there. Some people say that Reagan was such a great man in part because he ended the Cold War, others say it was Gorbechev but Gorbechev didn't seek to end Communism. His goal was to save it and he failed. He just wasn't as ruthless as other dictators.

This is my perspective. Communism was the worse political system to have been created. It enslaved billions of people and has murdered hundreds of million. the fall of communism in Eastern Europe and Russia was perhaps the largest political revolution in history.

It was also almost entirely peaceful. It didn't happen because of diplomacy or because Reagan built up the military. It was the average person in those countries that did it.

The collapse of communism started in Poland. With Solidarity. It was their leadership that eventually brought the whole 'Evil Empire' down. Which is why I put Lech Wałęsa up there.

I threw Pope John Paul II up there because I believe that without his support of Solidarity, they might have never succeeded. So what? Big Deal? why is that important.

Maybe it is my view on leadership. A great leader isn't someone who does great things but someone who inspires other people to do great things. To help bring out the best of people.

I also threw him up there because I couldn't think of anyone else. I am sure there is someone who would more appropriately fit my ideal but I cannot think of him yet.