Political Crossfire Forums

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

papershredder wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Actually Todd I would say its quite different, since Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ so for them to say its wrong is a basic belief they have. However Mormons believe in Christ, so for them to say that the Book of Mormon is just as important is inherently different than your little comparison with the Jews.

Also Central an angel did not talk to Joseph Smith because Jesus told us his teachings quite well when he was here.

right. why do we need 2 of the same story.
WEll, there's four gospel. Tsk, tsk. Stupid people writing multiple gospels. Tsk, tsk. Stupid people cannonizing more than one gospel.

papershredder · Joined: 26 Jun 2006 Posts: 54

CrossEyedMary wrote: papershredder wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Actually Todd I would say its quite different, since Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ so for them to say its wrong is a basic belief they have. However Mormons believe in Christ, so for them to say that the Book of Mormon is just as important is inherently different than your little comparison with the Jews.

Also Central an angel did not talk to Joseph Smith because Jesus told us his teachings quite well when he was here.

right. why do we need 2 of the same story.
WEll, there's four gospel. Tsk, tsk. Stupid people writing multiple gospels. Tsk, tsk. Stupid people cannonizing more than one gospel.

are you macking me?

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

CrossEyedMary wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: This question is directed to Mormons...

Do you need the Book of Mormon to go to heaven or do you need the Bible?
No. You don't need it. You're not lookoing at the book of mormon correctly. It's not something that completely the Bible. It's seperate. The Bible is the record of a people living in the area of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Cannaan, Palestine, Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon is a record of a people living in North America.

Quote: Was god not smart enough to explain in his own words what he wanted?
Did God write the Bible, or did man? Why would you say that if the Bible is incomplete, that this means GOD is the one at fault, and not the people were were writing/assembling the Bible? Since your whining I'll respond to your post which should have answered if there should ever be Mormonism. Do you not see that you said you don't need the BoM? What am I suppose to say to that? If I were to respond it would be, "Ok, then why base an entire belief off of it?". Is that better, does this make you happy?

Also you later on say that you use it complimentary with the bible right? Where in the bible does it say there are 3 heavens?

God inspired the writers, so what they wrote was what God wanted. How is that not God writing the bible? Or is there errors in the Bible?

And I never said the Bible was incomplete Joseph Smith's hallucinations did.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

CrossEyedMary wrote: Hyde wrote: all of those are just specics though. little things that people made to make them feel better for the hope they will help them enter heaven. if jesus's teachings of sacrifice, love, and being, well, good, gets across, no matter what the specifcs, i got no problem with it.
But EVERYTHING is specifics. What I've read of the Bible (ie, the entire Bible) it seems clear that God CARES how we do things. He never seems wishy washy about how things are being done. Actually its very specific, your only goal is to believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins on the cross, and only through him will you enter heaven. Along with following the Great Commandment/Great Commission. The other stuff is important but not as important, because after being born-again you should follow what he wants because the spirit will direct if you allow it too.

papershredder · Joined: 26 Jun 2006 Posts: 54

papershredder wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: papershredder wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Actually Todd I would say its quite different, since Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ so for them to say its wrong is a basic belief they have. However Mormons believe in Christ, so for them to say that the Book of Mormon is just as important is inherently different than your little comparison with the Jews.

Also Central an angel did not talk to Joseph Smith because Jesus told us his teachings quite well when he was here.

right. why do we need 2 of the same story.
WEll, there's four gospel. Tsk, tsk. Stupid people writing multiple gospels. Tsk, tsk. Stupid people cannonizing more than one gospel.

are you mocking me?

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

papershredder wrote: are you macking me?
I'm not mocking you, but rather pointing out the flaw in your argument.

soyleche · Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 5

Quote:
Where in the bible does it say there are 3 heavens?

2 Cor 12:2

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Todd D. wrote: LetsGetReal wrote: Todd D. wrote: Quote: No they would say an angel revealed it to Joseph Smith
Who do angels work for, again? Last time I checked wasn't Satan a fallen angel.
That certainly seems to be the popular interpretation of the story these days. Are you suggesting that the Book of Mormon was penned by a fallen angel, or that the story was made up?

Either way, you are still ignoring CrossEyedMary when she specifically stated that Mormons do NOT try and "replace" the Bible with the Book of Mormon. A popular or the correct one? I'll take Correct one for two thousand Alex...

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Book of Mormon is a record of a people living in North America.

An extremely inaccurate "record". :lol:
I like how you back up your claims with support. Amazing! :clap:

That's like asking to provide evidence that Atlantis didn't exist.
No it's not. You can point out inaccuracies very easily.

Quote: The fact is this book claims that there were large at least two large advanced prehistoric
Prehistoric? Not even close. Since when was 600BC prehistory?

And how large is large? They just considered themselves large compared to each other. The book never mentions any population count.

Quote: civilizations descended from the Ancient Hebrews and Egyptians who used metal implements and horses and held large empires in North America, all though this directly contradicts anything we know of Pre-Columbian culture.
http://www.acnatsci.org/museum/leidy/paleo/equus.html
http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user/documents/horses.html

Quote: They even went so far as to make a claim that the Smithsonian Institute supported this contention.

The Smithsonian's refutation of this claim can be read here:
http://www.irr.org/mit/smithson.html

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml

Quote: Shall I go on?
Please do.

Quote: The Church of the Latter Day Saints IMHO is a pseudo-Christian cult that directly contradicts Christianity in many, many ways and I have dealt with the issue many times on this forum, so many that I find it boring.
Too bad, because making such backhanded remarks with no basis or support is trolling. Links with no opinion is also trolling :lol:....

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

LetsGetReal wrote: Since your whining I'll respond to your post which should have answered if there should ever be Mormonism. Do you not see that you said you don't need the BoM?
And?

Quote: What am I suppose to say to that? If I were to respond it would be, "Ok, then why base an entire belief off of it?".
You could say that, but then I would say, "Mormonism isn't based entirely off the Book of Mormon."

Quote: Is that better, does this make you happy?
No, it really does nothing for me.

Quote: Also you later on say that you use it complimentary with the bible right? Where in the bible does it say there are 3 heavens?
Where in the BoM does it? (HINT: Nowhere.)

1 Cor 15:40, and 2 Cor. 12:2.

Quote: God inspired the writers, so what they wrote was what God wanted.
Wow, they must have been perfect men. Because a lot of times God inspires me to do stuff, even little stuff, and for some reason I still can't. Like, "Go help your mom with the dishes." "Nah, I'll just stay here and argue about mormonism." HOw hard is it to help my mom? Not very. On the other hand, how hard is it to write a body of scripture that is quite different from those of surrounding nations, during a time filled with war and other bad things? Pretty darned hard, I would imagine.

Quote: How is that not God writing the bible? Or is there errors in the Bible?
Does the Bible ever claim there aren't? Where are you getting that the Bible is 100% accurate. The Bible claims it is not complete, at least. It doesn't claim it's inaccurate, but it certainly never claims it isn't.

Quote: And I never said the Bible was incomplete Joseph Smith's hallucinations did.
So did the Bible.

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

LetsGetReal wrote: Links with no opinion is also trolling :lol:....
No. Starting threads with only a link and no opinion makes the thread subject to being locked. Posting links, on the other hand, to refute a link posted by somebody else, is providing a counter attack, not trolling.

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

Maybe not entirely but enough to call it Mormonism and have a different book for all its followers to read. Same could go with catholicism but they don't claim that an angel told them to write their beliefs. Just intense religious study, research, and questioning. Sorry not in the BoM but in the religious doctrine followed by people of the Mormon faith, happy?

1 Cor 15:40 wrote: 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another Where does it say three heavens there?? Also the other one does say it but I'm doing a little research on it before I respond....

So God would want his followers to follow a book with errors?

God inspired you to not wash dishes? :roll:

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

LetsGetReal wrote: Maybe not entirely but enough to call it Mormonism and have a different book for all its followers to read.
What's wrong wtih that? Where does the Bible say that there need be NO other book?

Quote: Same could go with catholicism but they don't claim that an angel told them to write their beliefs.
Neither do we.

Quote: Just intense religious study, research, and questioning. Sorry not in the BoM but in the religious doctrine followed by people of the Mormon faith, happy?

Quote: Also the other one does say it but I'm doing a little research on it before I respond....
Wow, really? How come you didn't do that when you responded with

Quote: If I were to respond it would be, "Ok, then why base an entire belief off of it?"

Or

Quote: No they would say an angel revealed it to Joseph Smith

Or

Quote: The Bible is the only book you need and the BoM trys to take the place of it and if they were christian they would see how wrong this is

Maybe you should expand this new-found interest in supporting your claims to everything you write down.

Quote: So God would want his followers to follow a book with errors?
No. But God isn't going to force anybody to write anything they don't want to. God didn't give us free will so he could just take it away again.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24198

Hey CrossEyedMary...you should find this interesting...

soyleche · Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 5

John wrote: Hey CrossEyedMary...you should find this interesting...
This one's fun too:

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=830

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Prehistoric? Not even close. Since when was 600BC prehistory?

In the New World 600 BC is definitely before any written history.

The fact is those civilizations are fantasy, cobbled together by a con man.

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

soyleche wrote: John wrote: Hey CrossEyedMary...you should find this interesting...
This one's fun too:

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=830
Yes, that's a good one.

By the way, John - were you going to look at the DNA sources, or have you conceeded that point?

cap'n queasy wrote: In the New World 600 BC is definitely before any written history.

The fact is those civilizations are fantasy, cobbled together by a con man.
Again, support?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapotec

Quote: The Zapotecs developed a calendar and a logophonetic system of writing that used a separate glyph to represent each of the syllables of the language. This writing system is considered to be the basis of the other Mesoamerican writing systems developed by the Maya, Mixtec, and Aztec civilizations.

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

John wrote: Hey CrossEyedMary...you should find this interesting...
Who is that speaking? Is there a script somewhere I could read? I am having trouble understanding the recording.

soyleche · Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 5

I'd be willing to bet that most people that have posted here have never come anywhere close to reading the Book of Mormon. If they had, a lot of these posts wouldn't have been posted.

That isn't to say that there aren't legitimate questions about the authenticity of the BoM. There are, and they are being investigated. Unfortunatly, there really is no unbiased research being done. FARMS has some great scholars working for it - but they get discounted immediately because they are affiliated with the LDS church. Nobody else is approaching the questions in a scholarly way at all.

Here's an interesting read, if you are so inclined:

http://www.cometozarahemla.org/others/mosser-owen.html

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: were you going to look at the DNA sources, or have you conceeded that point?

There is nothing to concede. Amerindians come from Mongoloid stock, not Semitic. That article said nothing that disputed that at all.

It merely mentioned that genetic anomalies exist and are found from time to time, which maybe would explain an anomalous trait similar to Semitic DNA, if it were ever found.

But it hasn't been so the article is totally irrelevant to the point. And furthermore it would put any such genetic marker in doubt if it ever were found.