Political Crossfire Forums

[airo]

Quote: I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And how exactly do you accomplish **asking** her to pray with you? Do you not prostrate yourself and utter a prayer to her to gain "contact", or whatever you want to call it? You don't consider that PRAYING to her?

Either way, the concept is completely unbiblical, and does nothing but serve to lower the statute of Jesus. Even IF Mary was made omniscient upon death, and Jesus woke her soul and brought it out of her body and into heaven, JESUS is still the person the BIBLE describes as the person you and I should pray to to act as an intermediary between us and God. (Hebrews 17:25.) No where does it say Mary, no where does it say any other "saint", but it does say that the exact job that man has given to other men was Jesus' all along.

But i do agree with you, the bible is very clear on who saints are ;)

[MJB]

airo wrote: Quote: I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And how exactly do you accomplish **asking** her to pray with you? Do you not prostrate yourself and utter a prayer to her to gain "contact", or whatever you want to call it? You don't consider that PRAYING to her?

Either way, the concept is completely unbiblical, and does nothing but serve to lower the statute of Jesus. Even IF Mary was made omniscient upon death, and Jesus woke her soul and brought it out of her body and into heaven, JESUS is still the person the BIBLE describes as the person you and I should pray to to act as an intermediary between us and God. (Hebrews 17:25.) No where does it say Mary, no where does it say any other "saint", but it does say that the exact job that man has given to other men was Jesus' all along.

But i do agree with you, the bible is very clear on who saints are ;)

Actually, Jesus, himself, taught us how to pray, and he taught us that we were to pray to, "Our Father," which, by the way, Catholics do. Jesus never taught us to pray to himself. If one would like to be critical of how others pray, they should likewise realize that praying to Jesus, rather than praying to the Father, is not praying as Jesus taught. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, the same Father that Jesus himself prayed to. Never did he say, "Pray to me."

[LetsGetReal]

Jesus is God....

[Dustferret]

I think of it this way.

Heres god.
God says vanity is a sin. It is self-pleasure, and wrong.

We must worship god. If we do, we get a lovely place to live for eternity, if we don't we get a damnable hellfire for the rest of forever. Which noone deserves.

[Lumina]

Darth Tiberius wrote: Lumina wrote: I had to struggle to read through this thread--so much anger and sorrow and confusion.

Of this, I am certain: The God I worship is the God of Love. Dissension among the brethren is not His work but, rather, the work of the master of lies. And to what point?!

So many have been hurt and scarred by "religion"; so many of you seem so angry.

Whatever your religion, is it not good to reflect on one's transgressions?
How else can we continue to strive for perfection if we do not confront our failures? And isn't striving for perfection a worthy spiritual goal?If someone else finds spiritual satisfaction in speaking openly with another about his or her sins, what's wrong with this? Only a century+ ago, there weren't psychiatrists/psychologists, and I think we all have a need to "confess" to someone else what we have done. We need validity; we need to hear those words spoken aloud. Further, in John, the Disciples are told that they have the power to hear and forgive sins.

Take it or leave it, but does not the Bible speak this?

And speaking of the Bible itself, we know that Christ was literate. He read in the Temple when he was only 12. Why did He not leave writings the way all the other "greats" do? We know He knew how to write, so why didn't He do this?

And how did the Church survive His death? My opinion is that the thousands of people who witnessed His resurrection were changed forever, including Peter, who had proven himself a coward. Something happened that has enabled Christians to survive and thrive even unto this very day.

And without the written Word. "Word" means "spoken," and Christ left no writings. Instead, He left His disciples and a living, breathing, alive Church that continues to this day. We know from external secular sources when the first Gospel was written--tell me how the beginning Church survived without the written Word, which it clearly did.

I read with such sorrow all the accusations about praying to Mary. Mary was a human being, as was her husband Joseph. Both pilgrims whose faith we should emulate. OMG, even today in the Middle East, what happens to a 14-year old girl who turns up pregnant?!

All Christians accept the "Apostles' Creed" and the "Nicene Creed." The words are "communion of saints, " and Paul makes clear who the "beloved" and "saints" are. If you believe in the "communion of saints," what is the problem with praying that your grandparents forgive you and that they hear your prayer? Why wouldn't I pray that Mary and all the angels and saints pray with me?

I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And I truly struggle with the ignorant accusation that Catholics prays to statues. I keep pictures of my kids in my wallet and on the walls of my home. I don't pray to them; they are simply reminders of my kids. Statues and icons are merely physical, visual reminders of other Christians who have lived here and endured and somehow triumphed over all the travails I now face.

What's the problem? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ? That He died for your sins and was resurrected and that through Him, we ourselves can hope for salvation and eternal forgiveness?

What else could possibly matter?

OMG, I have too many timbers in my own eyes to worry about the splinters in yours.

YOU?

Maybe if you read the thread focusing on only yourself and not to get so bent up out of shape it'd be simple to read this thread.

You said dissention is not his work but the master of lies. By that you are referring to the devil. OK, if that is true then there are many reasons why that is not true. First the Bible in itself is so vague. Assuming God is real then he should of had more responsibility from day 1. You don't create humans, give them free will and then make them go through life with limited information and in the end casting all those that don't believe in you or accept you to hell. That is the work of a tyrant and a maniacal being. His creation of evil cannot be avoided in my opiniion. With free thinking there is allways a choice between good and evil. No even God (assuming he's real again) can vanquish evil. You can suppress it but you can never defeat it. It all started with his vanity. His vanity to assume that he can build a creation from his own image and then with his absolute power it corrupts absolutely. It eventually becomes like a small kid pulling wings off a fly because it was annoying him. Where is his great love and patience when he sends those to hell and sparks his wrath in the Old Testament (which can never be proven conviniently).

Instead the Bible lies as a book that was written by men and can't be routed out from the possibility of gross bias and prejudice of the writers. How do you know they didn't lie. and if they didn't then you have chinese whispers. One story passed to many people or just to a few. Over time and passing these stories and messages then you have a corrupted and skewed text in the Bible. No wonder why none of it is coherant and ther are contradictions galore. These dissentions soon follow. Each man has then tomfill in the gaps his own interpretation. Some take it literally and we have the massive problem with fundamentalism. Then you have those that use the Bible and it's vagueness to justify the evil they do in the world. It is a simple conclusion that even if the bible is true you can never know which one is right since it is so vague and everyone will have their own interrpreations. And then God wouldn't understand. So that produces fear and hostility among Christians and from Christians to the rest of the world. Even then to protect this faith in wht cannot be proven and what cannot be vlidated by reason and logic, you have Christians putting their own little faith in a box so it will be allways protected and that this box can help them in any situation in life. This box then blocks out understanding to toehrs and their opinions and when the truth is told then this box prevents the truth from sinking in. Alienation to reality. I've heard countless people in the religion forum say, "Nothing can come betweenme and my love/faith for God". Well duh... That shield and box wouldn't let anything through. Then to dismiss further what others say the common reply is, "You athiests are just naturally hostile and you do not listen". Listen to what? Listen to incoherant and faith based dribble? Listen to something so far from what is logical to the point where it seems just silly or discrimitory? I think not. Either that or the phrase "Eeryone is out to get us. Well at least I got god and that's what matters". There is one word for that. Paranoia.

Many yes (me included) have been deeply hurt by religion like many others but that is not the reason we go against religion. We go against religion since we need a world where the people unite away from superstitition and away from religion based prejudice and paranoia.

You didn't read my post very carefully. I wasn't "bent out of shape"; I said I was saddened, and I am. In particular, you missed my comments on the Bible.

I am so sorry that religion has hurt you, and I'm also sorry that you feel the need to justify your opinions (to which you're entitled and which I respect) by trying to dismiss faith as superstition. I am neither prejudiced nor paranoid, and I don't happen to know any person of genuine faith who uses this as a platform for prejudice. Prejudice and paranoia are, in my opinion, antithetical to faith.

[Lumina]

airo wrote: Quote: I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And how exactly do you accomplish **asking** her to pray with you? Do you not prostrate yourself and utter a prayer to her to gain "contact", or whatever you want to call it? You don't consider that PRAYING to her?

Either way, the concept is completely unbiblical, and does nothing but serve to lower the statute of Jesus. Even IF Mary was made omniscient upon death, and Jesus woke her soul and brought it out of her body and into heaven, JESUS is still the person the BIBLE describes as the person you and I should pray to to act as an intermediary between us and God. (Hebrews 17:25.) No where does it say Mary, no where does it say any other "saint", but it does say that the exact job that man has given to other men was Jesus' all along.

But i do agree with you, the bible is very clear on who saints are ;)

As I said, I believe, and I'm quoting from the Apostles Creed here, in the "communion of saints." No, I do not prostrate myself to Mary; this would be blasphemous and also obscene. If you are referring to praying the Rosary, each decade begins with "Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit..." and is followed by the Lord's Prayer.

Mary and Joseph are both worthy of emulation. We can all learn from them and from Peter and Paul and so on, each one of these people unique human beings with frailties like yours and mine. I do find fascinating the fact that Jesus performed His first miracle at the behest of His mother, don't you?

I"d be interested in your answering this question, which I addressed in my post to which you are responding: How did the early Church survive without the written Word? If the Bible is the only source of illumination, then why didn't Christ, who was literate, write anything down?

And I am also eager to learn whether you recite the Apostles Creed yourself. What do you think the "communion of saints" means?

[perdidochas]

Darth Tiberius wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Catholics believe that all people are capable of recieving God's grace. Now we do beleive that more people will recieve God's grace if you provide nourishment to your soul through the eucharist. But none the less we believe all people can go to heaven if they are good people. But really thats for God to decide.

No Cathlics believe also that your own actions in life and confession is the way to recieve forgiveness and only then do you recieve God's grace. Catholics mourn rather than celebrate their faith.

Actually, you are mistaken.

Baptism is also a way to receive forgiveness.

[perdidochas]

Darth Tiberius wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Catholics believe that all people are capable of recieving God's grace. Now we do beleive that more people will recieve God's grace if you provide nourishment to your soul through the eucharist. But none the less we believe all people can go to heaven if they are good people. But really thats for God to decide.

No Cathlics believe also that your own actions in life and confession is the way to recieve forgiveness and only then do you recieve God's grace. Catholics mourn rather than celebrate their faith.

You would have absolutely no concept of what catholicism is. Not only do you not believe in religion, you dont even believe in God.

Catholics believe you are forgiven the moment you pray to ask for God's forgiveness. What the Catholic church also recognizes is that humans often dont make it real to themselves until they sit down with someone they can trust and talk about it. Another reason for reconciliation is that when a person sins he not only sins against God but against the body of christ which is his church. So that person in order to purify his soul for the church and God himself are suggested to go to reconciliation. The priest even takes on something called persona cristo (I think thats how its spelled). Which means that the priest is supposed to act as christ. He is supposed to both comfort and understand the person asking for forgiveness.

I like reconciliation as a sacrament. It is far and away my second favorite sacrament. It has gotten me through many tough times and has helped me grow as a person.

I grew up going to church and spent 18 years doing that while I lived with my parents. Now that I'm in my 20s I don't anymore and my childhood has been screwed by Christianity. So lets just say I have a unique perspective into what the church really does and I'm absent from the blinding effects of faith. Logic and reason is god. I also know more about religion than most.

Catholics may believe that confession is necessary but every bit of their life must be repented. And doesn't the Bible say your sins were allreadyt forgiven. It makes confession look like a chore andwork which the Bible says that works cannot save you. Hypocrisy number 1 of the Catholic regime. Also the church is never to mact as christ since Christ was supposed to be the focus. Pastors and etc are mouthpieces of Christ. Messengers. So to have a priest act as Christ and especially to have the heathens on the Vatican pretend they are God's authority on earth should be so angering for any Christian and to athiests it is just plain silly and evil. That's the Catholics hypocrisy number 2. Then praying to Mary to get favor with God? Ummm.....First commandment??!! Praying to anyone else except for god or Jesus is a big no no by the Bible.

Worshipping other than God is the big no no. Praying is not an act of worship but an act of asking. Catholics ASK Mary to pray for us. We don't worship her.

Darth Tiberius wrote: Overall for Catholics you are to live saying you're in the Bible when actually you're far from it. Catholics are always so hooked on their confession that it is a form of submission. Submission again is a property of the canaille. It is a religion of sorrow for the Catholics where they view their faith as a chore.

In the Book of James, we are told to confess our sins to the presbyters (priests). In the Gospels, Jesus gives the Apostles the ability to forgive sins. Catholic priests are the successors to the Apostles.

[perdidochas]

Darth Tiberius wrote: politicalmojo wrote: I am very sorry you grew up in an environment that was not condusive to christianity. But the fact remains that if you truly believe what you just said about Catholicism then you never knew what it was to begin with.

I was Lutheran but I still knew many Catholics and knew quite a bit about the denomination. Still do.

Quote: Catholics believe every SIN should be repented not life action.

According to the bible salvation is a combination of both faith and works.

The Bible clearly said that works cannot save you. That's what the New Testament clearly says.

And I quote from the Bible now to prove what I say;

Before God only those works are good which are done for the glory of God and the good of man, according to the rule of divine Law. Such works, however, no man performs unless he first believes that God has forgiven him his sins and has given him eternal life by grace, for Christ's sake, without any works of his own, John 15:4, 5.
We reject as a great folly the assertion, frequently made in our day, that works must be placed in the fore, and "faith in dogmas" -- meaning the Gospel of Christ crucified for the sins of the world -- must be relegated to the rear. Since good works never precede faith, but are always and in every instance the result of faith in the Gospel, it is evident that the only means by which we Christians can become rich in good works (and God would have us to be rich in good works, Titus 2:14) is unceasingly to remember the grace of God which we have received in Christ, Rom. 12:1; 2 Cor. 8:9. Hence we reject as unchristian and foolish any attempt to produce good works by the compulsion of the Law or through carnal motives.

On the other hand the Bible also says that faith without works is dead (the Book of James) James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
.

Quote: Well the Bible commands that people only pray to God or Jesus. To pray to anything else is idolotry in the eyes of Chrsitianity. Mary according to Christianity is in heaven and has no more favor than anyone else. I'm speaking on the assumption that Chrsitianity is true. Mary cannot hear you and it is nothing but idolotry. She is dead.

Where does it say not to pray to others than God or Jesus? Granted, it says not to WORSHIP others, but prayer and worship are two different things. Prayer is asking.

[perdidochas]

airo wrote: Quote: I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And how exactly do you accomplish **asking** her to pray with you? Do you not prostrate yourself and utter a prayer to her to gain "contact", or whatever you want to call it? You don't consider that PRAYING to her?

Yes, but we are praying for her to pray to God for us. Praying is asking. Prayer is not worship.

airo wrote: Either way, the concept is completely unbiblical, and does nothing but serve to lower the statute of Jesus. Even IF Mary was made omniscient upon death, and Jesus woke her soul and brought it out of her body and into heaven, JESUS is still the person the BIBLE describes as the person you and I should pray to to act as an intermediary between us and God. (Hebrews 17:25.) No where does it say Mary, no where does it say any other "saint", but it does say that the exact job that man has given to other men was Jesus' all along.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that all of God's Word is in the Bible.

The only reason Mary is important is for being the mother of Jesus. Honoring Mary takes nothing away from Jesus, it just raises him even higher. If you say good things about my mother, it does nothing to hurt me, in fact, it elevates me.

Do you ever ask fellow Christians to pray for you? If you do, you are doing the same thing I do when I ask Mary to pray for me.

[Hyde]

Dustferret wrote: I think of it this way.

Heres god.
God says vanity is a sin. It is self-pleasure, and wrong.

We must worship god. If we do, we get a lovely place to live for eternity, if we don't we get a damnable hellfire for the rest of forever. Which noone deserves.

what about ? does he go to heaven.

[airo]

perdidochas wrote: airo wrote: Quote: I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And how exactly do you accomplish **asking** her to pray with you? Do you not prostrate yourself and utter a prayer to her to gain "contact", or whatever you want to call it? You don't consider that PRAYING to her?

Yes, but we are praying for her to pray to God for us. Praying is asking. Prayer is not worship.

airo wrote: Either way, the concept is completely unbiblical, and does nothing but serve to lower the statute of Jesus. Even IF Mary was made omniscient upon death, and Jesus woke her soul and brought it out of her body and into heaven, JESUS is still the person the BIBLE describes as the person you and I should pray to to act as an intermediary between us and God. (Hebrews 17:25.) No where does it say Mary, no where does it say any other "saint", but it does say that the exact job that man has given to other men was Jesus' all along.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that all of God's Word is in the Bible.

The only reason Mary is important is for being the mother of Jesus. Honoring Mary takes nothing away from Jesus, it just raises him even higher. If you say good things about my mother, it does nothing to hurt me, in fact, it elevates me.

Do you ever ask fellow Christians to pray for you? If you do, you are doing the same thing I do when I ask Mary to pray for me.

Actually, i don't. I think the concept of praying for someone else is rather futile, not to mention completely illogical, unless they're unwilling to pray for themselves. (Is God more likely to answer your prayer if you have 15 people supporting your prayer? Doesn't that just turn prayer into a sort of popularity contest, so that he who can get the most people to pray for him will have his prayers answered?)

Prayer is a form of supplication. The ONLY person the Bible says you should supplicate to is God. Not Mary, not a "saint", not any one. On top of that, using "saints", not to mention Mary, as middle-men between you and God IS unbiblical, and does usurp power from Christ. The bible specifically states that "He always lives to intercede", (Hebrews 7:25) so if you're praying to Mary because you believe she can somehow pull strings with God to make your prayer come true, who would be able to do that? Mary, who may or may not even be able to hear your prayers (Where in the Bible does it say that she was even granted the ability to hear and understand prayers?), or Jesus, the Son of God, who died for you, and who the BIBLE guarantees will be your liason between you and God? Also, how can Mary and the saints act as mediators between man and God when 1 Timothy 2:5 specifically states there is only ONE mediator, Jesus Christ?

[Doowstados]

LetsGetReal wrote: Jesus is God....

Correction: Jesus is the son of god, the mortal representation of god.

[Doowstados]

Dustferret wrote: I think of it this way.

Heres god.
God says vanity is a sin. It is self-pleasure, and wrong.

We must worship god. If we do, we get a lovely place to live for eternity, if we don't we get a damnable hellfire for the rest of forever. Which noone deserves.

Damnable hellfire makes no sense.
No one*
But you make a point, god requires worship, isn't that vanity for god?

[Lumina]

airo wrote: perdidochas wrote: airo wrote: Quote: I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And how exactly do you accomplish **asking** her to pray with you? Do you not prostrate yourself and utter a prayer to her to gain "contact", or whatever you want to call it? You don't consider that PRAYING to her?

Yes, but we are praying for her to pray to God for us. Praying is asking. Prayer is not worship.

airo wrote: Either way, the concept is completely unbiblical, and does nothing but serve to lower the statute of Jesus. Even IF Mary was made omniscient upon death, and Jesus woke her soul and brought it out of her body and into heaven, JESUS is still the person the BIBLE describes as the person you and I should pray to to act as an intermediary between us and God. (Hebrews 17:25.) No where does it say Mary, no where does it say any other "saint", but it does say that the exact job that man has given to other men was Jesus' all along.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that all of God's Word is in the Bible.

The only reason Mary is important is for being the mother of Jesus. Honoring Mary takes nothing away from Jesus, it just raises him even higher. If you say good things about my mother, it does nothing to hurt me, in fact, it elevates me.

Do you ever ask fellow Christians to pray for you? If you do, you are doing the same thing I do when I ask Mary to pray for me.

Actually, i don't. I think the concept of praying for someone else is rather futile, not to mention completely illogical, unless they're unwilling to pray for themselves. (Is God more likely to answer your prayer if you have 15 people supporting your prayer? Doesn't that just turn prayer into a sort of popularity contest, so that he who can get the most people to pray for him will have his prayers answered?)

Prayer is a form of supplication. The ONLY person the Bible says you should supplicate to is God. Not Mary, not a "saint", not any one. On top of that, using "saints", not to mention Mary, as middle-men between you and God IS unbiblical, and does usurp power from Christ. The bible specifically states that "He always lives to intercede", (Hebrews 7:25) so if you're praying to Mary because you believe she can somehow pull strings with God to make your prayer come true, who would be able to do that? Mary, who may or may not even be able to hear your prayers (Where in the Bible does it say that she was even granted the ability to hear and understand prayers?), or Jesus, the Son of God, who died for you, and who the BIBLE guarantees will be your liason between you and God? Also, how can Mary and the saints act as mediators between man and God when 1 Timothy 2:5 specifically states there is only ONE mediator, Jesus Christ?

It's said that when two or more are gathered in His name, He will hear them. This suggests to me "strength in numbers" rather than "popularity contest."

I don't regard Mary or any of the saints as "mediators," but I do believe in the "communion of saints" (quoting from the Apostles Creed), and I do believe in the power of prayer. I frequently ask others to pray for me; every day I pray for others. If you believe in an omnipotent God who hears all, how can you think that any prayer is futile?

[Darth Tiberius]

perdidochas wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: politicalmojo wrote: I am very sorry you grew up in an environment that was not condusive to christianity. But the fact remains that if you truly believe what you just said about Catholicism then you never knew what it was to begin with.

I was Lutheran but I still knew many Catholics and knew quite a bit about the denomination. Still do.

Quote: Catholics believe every SIN should be repented not life action.

According to the bible salvation is a combination of both faith and works.

The Bible clearly said that works cannot save you. That's what the New Testament clearly says.

And I quote from the Bible now to prove what I say;

Before God only those works are good which are done for the glory of God and the good of man, according to the rule of divine Law. Such works, however, no man performs unless he first believes that God has forgiven him his sins and has given him eternal life by grace, for Christ's sake, without any works of his own, John 15:4, 5.
We reject as a great folly the assertion, frequently made in our day, that works must be placed in the fore, and "faith in dogmas" -- meaning the Gospel of Christ crucified for the sins of the world -- must be relegated to the rear. Since good works never precede faith, but are always and in every instance the result of faith in the Gospel, it is evident that the only means by which we Christians can become rich in good works (and God would have us to be rich in good works, Titus 2:14) is unceasingly to remember the grace of God which we have received in Christ, Rom. 12:1; 2 Cor. 8:9. Hence we reject as unchristian and foolish any attempt to produce good works by the compulsion of the Law or through carnal motives.

On the other hand the Bible also says that faith without works is dead (the Book of James) James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
.

Quote: Well the Bible commands that people only pray to God or Jesus. To pray to anything else is idolotry in the eyes of Chrsitianity. Mary according to Christianity is in heaven and has no more favor than anyone else. I'm speaking on the assumption that Chrsitianity is true. Mary cannot hear you and it is nothing but idolotry. She is dead.

Where does it say not to pray to others than God or Jesus? Granted, it says not to WORSHIP others, but prayer and worship are two different things. Prayer is asking.

Faith is to inspire good works. Not the other way around.

[toddytodd]

VonHelton wrote: If that's true, then millions of Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.. will be going straight to Hell if they don't belived Christ is the only Savior?
I think that is the belief of the more 'hard core' (my words) Christians out there. However, there are an increasing amount of people that say 'Only God knows for sure'. Personally, I have a problem with that, but that's my issue :)

[EugenicHegemony]

Christianity's a lie. Is a lie right?

[perdidochas]

Doowstados wrote: Dustferret wrote: I think of it this way.

Heres god.
God says vanity is a sin. It is self-pleasure, and wrong.

We must worship god. If we do, we get a lovely place to live for eternity, if we don't we get a damnable hellfire for the rest of forever. Which noone deserves.

Damnable hellfire makes no sense.
No one*
But you make a point, god requires worship, isn't that vanity for god?

God doesn't require worship. We require worshipping God.

[LostSoul3412]

"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me."

Personally, I do not see this as requiring faith to a certain god, but rather to God Himself, through any means, any faith.

No where does it require faith in Jesus Christ, or another prophet, only God. It does not specify, it does not narrow down, it does not classify. It simply says "God". Any who hold faith of any kind follow the First Commandment, and is not limited to those who follow Jesus Christ.

Everyone is entitled to their own path to salvation, not just Christians.