Political Crossfire Forums

Todd D. · Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:43 am Post subject:

Quote: Here I repeat myself to show how the bible command you to pray to God.

Peter and the apostles refused to be worshipped (Acts 10:25-26; 14:13-14). The holy angels refuse to be worshipped (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). The response is always the same, "Worship God!"
I am not disagreeing that only God is to be worshipped. However, by your own source, prayer is not necessarily worship, so you are back at square one.

Quote: CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....
And? God forgives our sins. God, however, works through humans to perform this. This is in no way a contradiction.

Quote: 1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];
I'm going to assume that you added that for emphasis and your own editorial concerns. We'll covr this later.

Quote: "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." -Isaiah 42:8
Graven images are entirely different from statues. GRAVEN images are images that are worshpped as gods. Since that's not what Catholics do, the argument is null.

Quote: Do the Catholics need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven!!!
So, by your estimation then, Crucifixes, any picture of Jesus, any depiction of Biblical times is likewise forbidden?

Quote: "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." -Exodus 20:5
"...AND SERVE THEM" is the part that you decided to cut. Kinda changes the meaning. Thanks for being honest.

Quote: The ones in Heaven pray to him in heaven. The ones of earth pray to him on earth. It does not say to pray to anyone else in heaven from earth
You are extrapolating that meaning from your own personal bias, not any hard biblical fact.

Quote: In heaven yes since they are giving praises. But it says Peter and the apostles refused to be worshipped (Acts 10:25-26; 14:13-14)
Good thing we don't worship Mary or the Saints.

Quote: Pray for each other on earth. It would be inneffective to pray for anyone in heaven.
But it would not be ineffective to someone in Heaven to pray for someone on Earth. What you are saying is that it's OK for someone on Earth to ask someone on Earth to pray for them, but it's not OK for someone on Earth to ask someone in Heaven to pray for them. Again, that fails in consistency.

Quote: Then how come it describes her as another sinner
Where does it describe her as another sinner?

Quote: No it says so. It says Jesus was the only one on earth to live without sin unless you believe Mary was as righteous and sinless as Jesus. That was be heresy.
Where is this verse that you keep speaking of. Show me the specific verse that says Mary was a sinner. Please.

Quote: It says reverement to anyone in heaven in the same level as god is. Respect and living in reflection is allowed.
Again, there is a huge difference between Adoration and Veneration. Please learn them.

Quote: Where does it say they can hear you? They are giving praises to god and it says they are making prayers for God's creation still on earth.
So if they are making prayers for God's creation on Earth (that being us), what is to suggest that they can NOT hear us?

Quote: Respect and revere are too different concepts. Catholics attempt to "bypass" these clear Scriptural principles by claiming they do not worship Mary or saints, but rather that they only "venerate" Mary and the saints. A definition of "venerate" is "to regard with respect or reverence." There is nothing wrong with respecting those faithful Christians who have gone before us (see Hebrews chapter 11). There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. The Bible describes Mary as "highly favored" by God (Luke 1:28). At the same time, there is no instruction in the Bible to revere those whom have gone to Heaven. We are to follow their example, yes, but revere or venerate, no.
Thanks for cutting and pasting what you already wrote. Do you really want to go in circles?

Quote: To label her as anything else is idolatry and worship of a false god.
False.

Quote: No other mainstream or unorthodox Christian church teaches on the deification of Mary, and I guarantee that thousands upon thousands of scholars and researchers have examined the bible, and none that I know of have come up with any support for Mary worship.
No Catholic scholar suggests any support for Mary worship either.

Go ahead though, please cut and paste some more from your earlier texts.

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

Quote: I am not disagreeing that only God is to be worshipped. However, by your own source, prayer is not necessarily worship, so you are back at square one.

But bowing down and praying is the equivilant in this case as worship. I feel we are now going in circles. I'm trying to prove to you the distinct comparison to these words in the text of the bible.

Quote: And? God forgives our sins. God, however, works through humans to perform this. This is in no way a contradiction.

Mary is in heaven. You can go to a priest to ask god to forgive you. By the power of the keys he can forgive you through God. Mary is where it goes wrong since she cannot forgive you or favor you.

Quote: I'm going to assume that you added that for emphasis and your own editorial concerns. We'll covr this later.

To emphasise my point.

Quote: Graven images are entirely different from statues. GRAVEN images are images that are worshpped as gods. Since that's not what Catholics do, the argument is null.

Graven images are in the same catagory as statues. Idols. Catholics pray to mary and bow to statues or images of Mary. Idolotry.

Quote: So, by your estimation then, Crucifixes, any picture of Jesus, any depiction of Biblical times is likewise forbidden?

Jesusn is to be worshipped and so Crucifixes are not to be focused on or worshipped. They are reminders of faith.

Quote: "...AND SERVE THEM" is the part that you decided to cut. Kinda changes the meaning. Thanks for being honest.

I didn't cut anything. I seriously did not. That is the part that is most important. To serve them is similar.

Quote: You are extrapolating that meaning from your own personal bias, not any hard biblical fact.

I'm not. You don't believe me. Find me a verse that says or sughgests you can pray to them. I want to see one verse at least that tells you that everyone should or suggested to pray to Mary or the the Saints.

Quote: But it would not be ineffective to someone in Heaven to pray for someone on Earth. What you are saying is that it's OK for someone on Earth to ask someone on Earth to pray for them, but it's not OK for someone on Earth to ask someone in Heaven to pray for them. Again, that fails in consistency.

It doesn't. Not at all. Since it is only god/Jesus that can forgive sins and he commands we pray to him.

Quote: Where does it describe her as another sinner?

You don't like me repeating myself so please see my earlier quoted verses.

Quote: Where is this verse that you keep speaking of. Show me the specific verse that says Mary was a sinner. Please.

Allready have. Mary says that she wonders why this gift has been given to her and the very next verse says that she is a humble servant. Nothing in the bible describes her as anything else but a normal girl.

Quote: Again, there is a huge difference between Adoration and Veneration. Please learn them.

allready have. and what I'm saying is that adoration is allowed and veneration is not. Please learn that.

Quote: So if they are making prayers for God's creation on Earth (that being us), what is to suggest that they can NOT hear us?

It doesn't suggest they can. And it says you must pray to the Lord. Not to the f*cking saints or Mary.

Quote: Thanks for cutting and pasting what you already wrote. Do you really want to go in circles?

Because most of the questions you have asked are explained by the verses.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

Todd, i usually like you responses, but i have some issues with your current arguments.

Mary was a woman--a human--like anyone else. She sinned, just like every other human born. Not verse indicates that she was spared of this.

In fact, the verses only indicate that God specifically chose her to bear Jesus, for whatever reason God had.

To say she was sinless is equating her with Jesus Christ, and that IS blasphemous.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

Also, Todd, you should know this one. There doesn't NEED to be a verse to describe her sins, as just being born puts us into a natural condition of sin.

We're all born already with sin on our shoulders. And Mary was no different then you or I.

Todd D. · Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject:

Quote: But bowing down and praying is the equivilant in this case as worship. I feel we are now going in circles. I'm trying to prove to you the distinct comparison to these words in the text of the bible.
And I am rejecting the assertion that it is worship. Plain and simple.

Quote: Mary is in heaven. You can go to a priest to ask god to forgive you. By the power of the keys he can forgive you through God.
Well, it's the power of the Holy Spirit, but close enough.

Quote: Mary is where it goes wrong since she cannot forgive you or favor you.
Nobody asks Mary to forgive them, they ask Mary to pray for us and WITH us.

Quote: I didn't cut anything. I seriously did not. That is the part that is most important. To serve them is similar.
No it is not. I show respect to my grandfather's grave by bowing, but I do not serve my grandfather, nor do I worship him.

Quote: Graven images are in the same catagory as statues. Idols. Catholics pray to mary and bow to statues or images of Mary. Idolotry.
Graven images are not in the same category at all. Graven images are worshipped AS gods. Statues are reminders and monuments. Consider it the difference between an actual person and a photograph of that person. One is really there, one is a reminder.

Quote: It doesn't. Not at all. Since it is only god/Jesus that can forgive sins and he commands we pray to him.
So again, in your estimation, asking someone on Earth to pray for you is OK, but asking someone in Heaven to pray for you is idolotry?

Quote: Mary says that she wonders why this gift has been given to her and the very next verse says that she is a humble servant.
She WAS a humble servant, that's why sh was bestowed such wonderful grace. That's kind of the entire point.

Quote: Nothing in the bible describes her as anything else but a normal girl.
Except for that whole Virgin Birth thing.

Quote: allready have. and what I'm saying is that adoration is allowed and veneration is not. Please learn that.
You are saying that Veneration is not allowed because it is worship, even though the definition of Veneration explicitly seperates itsself from Worship.

Quote: It doesn't suggest they can. And it says you must pray to the Lord. Not to the f*cking saints or Mary.
Very mature.

Quote: Mary would have had to have sinned. It's the human condition which ALL of us are born into.

If she were sinless, she would be akin to Christ, and you surely aren't equating Christ with Mary, are you?
God was Mary's savior Airo, I never denied that. However, I believe that she was saved in a very special and unique way from the rest of us by being spared original sin in order to make her an appropriate vessel for the Lord. As Jesus said, you wouldn't put new wine in to old wineskins, so it was wholly appropriate to spare her from the stain of original sin in order to foreshadow the coming of Jesus.

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

"airo" correctly also told you about your Mary and sinner connection.

airo wrote: Todd, i usually like you responses, but i have some issues with your current arguments.

Mary was a woman--a human--like anyone else. She sinned, just like every other human born. Not verse indicates that she was spared of this.

In fact, the verses only indicate that God specifically chose her to bear Jesus, for whatever reason God had.

To say she was sinless is equating her with Jesus Christ, and that IS blasphemous.

Also, Todd, you should know this one. There doesn't NEED to be a verse to describe her sins, as just being born puts us into a natural condition of sin.

We're all born already with sin on our shoulders. And Mary was no different then you or I.

Now to your posts

Todd D wrote: And I am rejecting the assertion that it is worship. Plain and simple.

Well I allrady told you how it is.

Quote: Well, it's the power of the Holy Spirit, but close enough.

Close enough.

Quote: Nobody asks Mary to forgive them, they ask Mary to pray for us and WITH us.

Again you read only what you want to read. Read the areas I allready said as well. Either that or even asking Mary to pray for us is blasphemy.

Quote: No it is not. I show respect to my grandfather's grave by bowing, but I do not serve my grandfather, nor do I worship him.

Like you confused martial arts bowing to religious bowing you also confuse your bowing to your grandfather's grave to religious bowing. I wish you wouldn't make that silly assumption and mix up.

Quote: Graven images are not in the same category at all. Graven images are worshipped AS gods. Statues are reminders and monuments. Consider it the difference between an actual person and a photograph of that person. One is really there, one is a reminder.

Statues should be reminders and symbols. Not to be worshipped. Bowing to a statue of Mary when it is more than respect (a.k.a. worshipping, veneration, revering) is wrong.

Quote: So again, in your estimation, asking someone on Earth to pray for you is OK, but asking someone in Heaven to pray for you is idolotry?

Yes.

Quote: She WAS a humble servant, that's why sh was bestowed such wonderful grace. That's kind of the entire point

So she did nothing before or after to deserve her pregnancy to Jesus.

Quote: Except for that whole Virgin Birth thing.

that's different. She was given a gift by god and you make it seem like her virgin birth makes her extra special in god's eyes to everyone else.

Quote: You are saying that Veneration is not allowed because it is worship, even though the definition of Veneration explicitly seperates itsself from Worship.

I said veneration or worship.

Quote: Very mature.

you're not answering the point that the bible says you must pray to the Lord and doesn't say to pray to the saints or mary. Your going around in circles p*sses the hell out of me.

Quote: God was Mary's savior Airo, I never denied that. However, I believe that she was saved in a very special and unique way from the rest of us by being spared original sin in order to make her an appropriate vessel for the Lord. As Jesus said, you wouldn't put new wine in to old wineskins, so it was wholly appropriate to spare her from the stain of original sin in order to foreshadow the coming of Jesus.

You're adding something to the Bible and that is blasphemy.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

Todd D. wrote:
If she were sinless, she would be akin to Christ, and you surely aren't equating Christ with Mary, are you?
God was Mary's savior Airo, I never denied that. However, I believe that she was saved in a very special and unique way from the rest of us by being spared original sin in order to make her an appropriate vessel for the Lord. As Jesus said, you wouldn't put new wine in to old wineskins, so it was wholly appropriate to spare her from the stain of original sin in order to foreshadow the coming of Jesus.[/quote]

That's under the assumption that Mary needed to be sinless to birth Jesus.

Jesus was a new wineskin in that he wasn't born with skin. His mother, on the other hand, wouldn't need to be sinless. At least, i so no reason why she would need to be, and the bible doesn't seem to infer this in any way, shape, or form.

Regardless, i'm fairly sure that it would be impossible for her to continue her life without sin, as i don't think that's a thing any born human is capable of doing, and that's a reoccurring theme in the Bible. (Even the most notable of God's chosen leaders committed sin at some point in time or another.)

JoeBen81 · Joined: 13 Jun 2006 Posts: 4771

LetsGetReal wrote:
No one is good in the eyes of the lord....

Well, that's it, now there's nothing stopping me from smoking this joint...

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

JoeBen81 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote:
No one is good in the eyes of the lord....

Well, that's it, now there's nothing stopping me from smoking this joint...

:lol: I wish I could join you.

Shady · Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 7413 Location: VA

CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.
But how do you know that I cannot KNOW whether or not Christianity is correct. That was the entire point of MY post.

Prove it then.

Hyde · Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject:

Shady wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.
But how do you know that I cannot KNOW whether or not Christianity is correct. That was the entire point of MY post.

Prove it then.

really. unless you are God or some kind of angel, you wont know for sure. and i am going to take a wild guess and say that you arent either of those things so it would be fooolish to try and pass a beleif as fact.

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

Shady wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.
But how do you know that I cannot KNOW whether or not Christianity is correct. That was the entire point of MY post.

Prove it then.
You can't empircally prove that I don't know.

You're entire point was that I cannot empiraclly prove that God exists. You cannot empirically prove that I do not know such a thing, though.

Hyde · Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:19 am Post subject:

CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.
But how do you know that I cannot KNOW whether or not Christianity is correct. That was the entire point of MY post.

Prove it then.
You can't empircally prove that I don't know.

You're entire point was that I cannot empiraclly prove that God exists. You cannot empirically prove that I do not know such a thing, though.

true, but i dont think you do. no offense, but unless you are God or some kind of angel, i dont see how you would know.

Shady · Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Posts: 7413 Location: VA

CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.
But how do you know that I cannot KNOW whether or not Christianity is correct. That was the entire point of MY post.

Prove it then.
You can't empircally prove that I don't know.

You're entire point was that I cannot empiraclly prove that God exists. You cannot empirically prove that I do not know such a thing, though.

But my point is nobody is certain. If you cannot prove it, then you cannot be completely certain no?

papershredder · Joined: 26 Jun 2006 Posts: 54

Shady wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.
But how do you know that I cannot KNOW whether or not Christianity is correct. That was the entire point of MY post.

Prove it then.
You can't empircally prove that I don't know.

You're entire point was that I cannot empiraclly prove that God exists. You cannot empirically prove that I do not know such a thing, though.

But my point is nobody is certain. If you cannot prove it, then you cannot be completely certain no?

would you both be quite. neither of you know the nature of God so quit saying that it is possible that you do because if you dont, you never will, which makes it impossible for you to know.

papershredder · Joined: 26 Jun 2006 Posts: 54

Darth Tiberius wrote: JoeBen81 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote:
No one is good in the eyes of the lord....

Well, that's it, now there's nothing stopping me from smoking this joint...

:lol: I wish I could join you.

go be hippies somewhere else.

Lumina · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 18133

I had to struggle to read through this thread--so much anger and sorrow and confusion.

Of this, I am certain: The God I worship is the God of Love. Dissension among the brethren is not His work but, rather, the work of the master of lies. And to what point?!

So many have been hurt and scarred by "religion"; so many of you seem so angry.

Whatever your religion, is it not good to reflect on one's transgressions?
How else can we continue to strive for perfection if we do not confront our failures? And isn't striving for perfection a worthy spiritual goal?If someone else finds spiritual satisfaction in speaking openly with another about his or her sins, what's wrong with this? Only a century+ ago, there weren't psychiatrists/psychologists, and I think we all have a need to "confess" to someone else what we have done. We need validity; we need to hear those words spoken aloud. Further, in John, the Disciples are told that they have the power to hear and forgive sins.

Take it or leave it, but does not the Bible speak this?

And speaking of the Bible itself, we know that Christ was literate. He read in the Temple when he was only 12. Why did He not leave writings the way all the other "greats" do? We know He knew how to write, so why didn't He do this?

And how did the Church survive His death? My opinion is that the thousands of people who witnessed His resurrection were changed forever, including Peter, who had proven himself a coward. Something happened that has enabled Christians to survive and thrive even unto this very day.

And without the written Word. "Word" means "spoken," and Christ left no writings. Instead, He left His disciples and a living, breathing, alive Church that continues to this day. We know from external secular sources when the first Gospel was written--tell me how the beginning Church survived without the written Word, which it clearly did.

I read with such sorrow all the accusations about praying to Mary. Mary was a human being, as was her husband Joseph. Both pilgrims whose faith we should emulate. OMG, even today in the Middle East, what happens to a 14-year old girl who turns up pregnant?!

All Christians accept the "Apostles' Creed" and the "Nicene Creed." The words are "communion of saints, " and Paul makes clear who the "beloved" and "saints" are. If you believe in the "communion of saints," what is the problem with praying that your grandparents forgive you and that they hear your prayer? Why wouldn't I pray that Mary and all the angels and saints pray with me?

I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And I truly struggle with the ignorant accusation that Catholics prays to statues. I keep pictures of my kids in my wallet and on the walls of my home. I don't pray to them; they are simply reminders of my kids. Statues and icons are merely physical, visual reminders of other Christians who have lived here and endured and somehow triumphed over all the travails I now face.

What's the problem? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ? That He died for your sins and was resurrected and that through Him, we ourselves can hope for salvation and eternal forgiveness?

What else could possibly matter?

OMG, I have too many timbers in my own eyes to worry about the splinters in yours.

YOU?

Hyde · Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:53 am Post subject:

Lumina wrote: I had to struggle to read through this thread--so much anger and sorrow and confusion.

Of this, I am certain: The God I worship is the God of Love. Dissension among the brethren is not His work but, rather, the work of the master of lies. And to what point?!

So many have been hurt and scarred by "religion"; so many of you seem so angry.

Whatever your religion, is it not good to reflect on one's transgressions?
How else can we continue to strive for perfection if we do not confront our failures? And isn't striving for perfection a worthy spiritual goal?If someone else finds spiritual satisfaction in speaking openly with another about his or her sins, what's wrong with this? Only a century+ ago, there weren't psychiatrists/psychologists, and I think we all have a need to "confess" to someone else what we have done. We need validity; we need to hear those words spoken aloud. Further, in John, the Disciples are told that they have the power to hear and forgive sins.

Take it or leave it, but does not the Bible speak this?

And speaking of the Bible itself, we know that Christ was literate. He read in the Temple when he was only 12. Why did He not leave writings the way all the other "greats" do? We know He knew how to write, so why didn't He do this?

And how did the Church survive His ? My opinion is that the thousands of people who witnessed His resurrection were changed forever, including Peter, who had proven himself a coward. Something happened that has enabled Christians to survive and thrive even unto this very day.

And without the written Word. "Word" means "spoken," and Christ left no writings. Instead, He left His disciples and a living, breathing, alive Church that continues to this day. We know from external secular sources when the first Gospel was written--tell me how the beginning Church survived without the written Word, which it clearly did.

I read with such sorrow all the accusations about praying to Mary. Mary was a human being, as was her husband Joseph. Both pilgrims whose faith we should emulate. OMG, even today in the Middle East, what happens to a 14-year old who turns up pregnant?!

All Christians accept the "Apostles' Creed" and the "Nicene Creed." The words are "communion of saints, " and Paul makes clear who the "beloved" and "saints" are. If you believe in the "communion of saints," what is the problem with praying that your grandparents forgive you and that they hear your prayer? Why wouldn't I pray that Mary and all the angels and saints pray with me?

I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And I truly struggle with the ignorant accusation that Catholics prays to statues. I keep pictures of my kids in my wallet and on the walls of my home. I don't pray to them; they are simply reminders of my kids. Statues and icons are merely physical, visual reminders of other Christians who have lived here and endured and somehow triumphed over all the travails I now face.

What's the problem? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ? That He died for your sins and was resurrected and that through Him, we ourselves can hope for salvation and eternal forgiveness?

What else could possibly matter?

OMG, I have too many timbers in my own eyes to worry about the splinters in yours.

YOU?

i dont beleive we have to confess our sins to any one. we have to ask forgivness from God. i dont bleieve a priest can suddenty rid myself of my sins. only God can boast that. but i do agree that we can ask the passsed on to pray for us and help us. i do not beleive the jesus is christ and is the one and only way to get to heaven as i have said many times before. i do bleive that jesus's teachings are rightous and a way to enter heaven. so are many other religions. it is not what you beleive, but the fact that you beleive.

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

papershredder wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: JoeBen81 wrote: LetsGetReal wrote:
No one is good in the eyes of the lord....

Well, that's it, now there's nothing stopping me from smoking this joint...

:lol: I wish I could join you.

go be hippies somewhere else.

Not all hippies smoke dope and not all dope smokers are hippies. There is a thing called generalising and labelling. Two things you ought to try and ween out.

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

Lumina wrote: I had to struggle to read through this thread--so much anger and sorrow and confusion.

Of this, I am certain: The God I worship is the God of Love. Dissension among the brethren is not His work but, rather, the work of the master of lies. And to what point?!

So many have been hurt and scarred by "religion"; so many of you seem so angry.

Whatever your religion, is it not good to reflect on one's transgressions?
How else can we continue to strive for perfection if we do not confront our failures? And isn't striving for perfection a worthy spiritual goal?If someone else finds spiritual satisfaction in speaking openly with another about his or her sins, what's wrong with this? Only a century+ ago, there weren't psychiatrists/psychologists, and I think we all have a need to "confess" to someone else what we have done. We need validity; we need to hear those words spoken aloud. Further, in John, the Disciples are told that they have the power to hear and forgive sins.

Take it or leave it, but does not the Bible speak this?

And speaking of the Bible itself, we know that Christ was literate. He read in the Temple when he was only 12. Why did He not leave writings the way all the other "greats" do? We know He knew how to write, so why didn't He do this?

And how did the Church survive His death? My opinion is that the thousands of people who witnessed His resurrection were changed forever, including Peter, who had proven himself a coward. Something happened that has enabled Christians to survive and thrive even unto this very day.

And without the written Word. "Word" means "spoken," and Christ left no writings. Instead, He left His disciples and a living, breathing, alive Church that continues to this day. We know from external secular sources when the first Gospel was written--tell me how the beginning Church survived without the written Word, which it clearly did.

I read with such sorrow all the accusations about praying to Mary. Mary was a human being, as was her husband Joseph. Both pilgrims whose faith we should emulate. OMG, even today in the Middle East, what happens to a 14-year old girl who turns up pregnant?!

All Christians accept the "Apostles' Creed" and the "Nicene Creed." The words are "communion of saints, " and Paul makes clear who the "beloved" and "saints" are. If you believe in the "communion of saints," what is the problem with praying that your grandparents forgive you and that they hear your prayer? Why wouldn't I pray that Mary and all the angels and saints pray with me?

I do NOT pray TO Mary. She was a human being like me. But I do believe in the "communion of saints," and I ask her and all the angels and saints to pray with me for God's will to be done.

And I truly struggle with the ignorant accusation that Catholics prays to statues. I keep pictures of my kids in my wallet and on the walls of my home. I don't pray to them; they are simply reminders of my kids. Statues and icons are merely physical, visual reminders of other Christians who have lived here and endured and somehow triumphed over all the travails I now face.

What's the problem? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ? That He died for your sins and was resurrected and that through Him, we ourselves can hope for salvation and eternal forgiveness?

What else could possibly matter?

OMG, I have too many timbers in my own eyes to worry about the splinters in yours.

YOU?

Maybe if you read the thread focusing on only yourself and not to get so bent up out of shape it'd be simple to read this thread.

You said dissention is not his work but the master of lies. By that you are referring to the devil. OK, if that is true then there are many reasons why that is not true. First the Bible in itself is so vague. Assuming God is real then he should of had more responsibility from day 1. You don't create humans, give them free will and then make them go through life with limited information and in the end casting all those that don't believe in you or accept you to hell. That is the work of a tyrant and a maniacal being. His creation of evil cannot be avoided in my opiniion. With free thinking there is allways a choice between good and evil. No even God (assuming he's real again) can vanquish evil. You can suppress it but you can never defeat it. It all started with his vanity. His vanity to assume that he can build a creation from his own image and then with his absolute power it corrupts absolutely. It eventually becomes like a small kid pulling wings off a fly because it was annoying him. Where is his great love and patience when he sends those to hell and sparks his wrath in the Old Testament (which can never be proven conviniently).

Instead the Bible lies as a book that was written by men and can't be routed out from the possibility of gross bias and prejudice of the writers. How do you know they didn't lie. and if they didn't then you have chinese whispers. One story passed to many people or just to a few. Over time and passing these stories and messages then you have a corrupted and skewed text in the Bible. No wonder why none of it is coherant and ther are contradictions galore. These dissentions soon follow. Each man has then tomfill in the gaps his own interpretation. Some take it literally and we have the massive problem with fundamentalism. Then you have those that use the Bible and it's vagueness to justify the evil they do in the world. It is a simple conclusion that even if the bible is true you can never know which one is right since it is so vague and everyone will have their own interrpreations. And then God wouldn't understand. So that produces fear and hostility among Christians and from Christians to the rest of the world. Even then to protect this faith in wht cannot be proven and what cannot be vlidated by reason and logic, you have Christians putting their own little faith in a box so it will be allways protected and that this box can help them in any situation in life. This box then blocks out understanding to toehrs and their opinions and when the truth is told then this box prevents the truth from sinking in. Alienation to reality. I've heard countless people in the religion forum say, "Nothing can come betweenme and my love/faith for God". Well duh... That shield and box wouldn't let anything through. Then to dismiss further what others say the common reply is, "You athiests are just naturally hostile and you do not listen". Listen to what? Listen to incoherant and faith based dribble? Listen to something so far from what is logical to the point where it seems just silly or discrimitory? I think not. Either that or the phrase "Eeryone is out to get us. Well at least I got god and that's what matters". There is one word for that. Paranoia.

Many yes (me included) have been deeply hurt by religion like many others but that is not the reason we go against religion. We go against religion since we need a world where the people unite away from superstitition and away from religion based prejudice and paranoia.