Political Crossfire Forums

[Shady]

Is Christianity the only religion that's right? I have no idea, and neither do you. Nobody knows ANYTHING for sure, and to claim otherwise is being simply dishonest.

I say you go on doing what you believe and at the end will find out who's right. Be like a lottery.

[Todd D.]

Quote: Then praying to Mary to get favor with God? Ummm.....First commandment??!! Praying to anyone else except for god or Jesus is a big no no by the Bible.
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Revelation 5:8

"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" - Ephesians 6:18

"Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. " - James 5:16

There is absolutely NOTHING in the Bible that says praying to anyone else except for God is a No No.

Adoration is entirely diferent from prayer, there's no need to assume that they are the same thing.

[mojo]

Darth Tiberius wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Catholics believe that all people are capable of recieving God's grace. Now we do beleive that more people will recieve God's grace if you provide nourishment to your soul through the eucharist. But none the less we believe all people can go to heaven if they are good people. But really thats for God to decide.

No Cathlics believe also that your own actions in life and confession is the way to recieve forgiveness and only then do you recieve God's grace. Catholics mourn rather than celebrate their faith.

You would have absolutely no concept of what catholicism is. Not only do you not believe in religion, you dont even believe in God.

Catholics believe you are forgiven the moment you pray to ask for God's forgiveness. What the Catholic church also recognizes is that humans often dont make it real to themselves until they sit down with someone they can trust and talk about it. Another reason for reconciliation is that when a person sins he not only sins against God but against the body of christ which is his church. So that person in order to purify his soul for the church and God himself are suggested to go to reconciliation. The priest even takes on something called persona cristo (I think thats how its spelled). Which means that the priest is supposed to act as christ. He is supposed to both comfort and understand the person asking for forgiveness.

I like reconciliation as a sacrament. It is far and away my second favorite sacrament. It has gotten me through many tough times and has helped me grow as a person.

I grew up going to church and spent 18 years doing that while I lived with my parents. Now that I'm in my 20s I don't anymore and my childhood has been screwed by Christianity. So lets just say I have a unique perspective into what the church really does and I'm absent from the blinding effects of faith. Logic and reason is god. I also know more about religion than most.

I am very sorry you grew up in an environment that was not condusive to christianity. But the fact remains that if you truly
believe what you just said about Catholicism then you never knew what it was to begin with.

Quote: Catholics may believe that confession is necessary but every bit of their life must be repented. And doesn't the Bible say your sins were allreadyt forgiven. It makes confession look like a chore andwork which the Bible says that works cannot save you. Hypocrisy number 1 of the Catholic regime. Also the church is never to mact as christ since Christ was supposed to be the focus. Pastors and etc are mouthpieces of Christ. Messengers. So to have a priest act as Christ and especially to have the heathens on the Vatican pretend they are God's authority on earth should be so angering for any Christian and to athiests it is just plain silly and evil. That's the Catholics hypocrisy number 2. Then praying to Mary to get favor with God? Ummm.....First commandment??!! Praying to anyone else except for god or Jesus is a big no no by the Bible.

Catholics believe every SIN should be repented not life action.

According to the bible salvation is a combination of both faith and works.

If salvation was based on faith alone why would Jesus come to the Earth and perform all of those good deeds. His entire life was works. What Jesus taught us is that our ACTIONS ultimately define us for who we are. You cannot carry the spirit of the faith without the actions.

The priests dont literally say they are Christ during confession. They assume a christlike compassion.
At any rate every person is called to act as Christ since Christ was a man without sin and was filled with tremendous love.

Well our prayers to Mary are another matter entirely but I will answer them.

Hail Mary wrote: Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Notice how all the prayer does is simply recognize Mary's divine position among God. We do not directly ask for her intervention. We ask her to pray for us. I ask my mother and father to pray for me on many occasions. During a Catholic Mass the community prays together on a variety of issues that pertain to the time. Mary is a part of the church just as any other member. The only way to contact her is through prayer.

Quote: Overall for Catholics you are to live saying you're in the Bible when actually you're far from it. Catholics are always so hooked on their confession that it is a form of submission. Submission again is a property of the canaille. It is a religion of sorrow for the Catholics where they view their faith as a chore.

I submiss my myself for the Lord only. I cooperate on my own free will with the institution of Christ. There is a difference.

I would hardly say we are hooked on confession. But maybe that is because you have never never felt the immense sense of relief that follows after leaving a confessional. It is truly one of the best feelings in the world.

If it is a religion of sorrows why do thousands upon thousands of youth from all over the world gather for world youth day. They come to exalt the Lord and share in the celebration of the Eucharist. Eucharist literally means thanksgiving. We come to give thanksgiving and praise to the Lord.

But sadly many people have this interpretation of our faith. This is partly because we choose not to evangelize ourselves by whoring ourselves out to the public. This is the common trend of evangelists today. I say they are the hypocrites.

God wrote: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Matthew 6:5

[Darth Tiberius]

politicalmojo wrote: I am very sorry you grew up in an environment that was not condusive to christianity. But the fact remains that if you truly believe what you just said about Catholicism then you never knew what it was to begin with.

I was Lutheran but I still knew many Catholics and knew quite a bit about the denomination. Still do.

Quote: Catholics believe every SIN should be repented not life action.

According to the bible salvation is a combination of both faith and works.

The Bible clearly said that works cannot save you. That's what the New Testament clearly says.

And I quote from the Bible now to prove what I say;

Before God only those works are good which are done for the glory of God and the good of man, according to the rule of divine Law. Such works, however, no man performs unless he first believes that God has forgiven him his sins and has given him eternal life by grace, for Christ's sake, without any works of his own, John 15:4, 5.
We reject as a great folly the assertion, frequently made in our day, that works must be placed in the fore, and "faith in dogmas" -- meaning the Gospel of Christ crucified for the sins of the world -- must be relegated to the rear. Since good works never precede faith, but are always and in every instance the result of faith in the Gospel, it is evident that the only means by which we Christians can become rich in good works (and God would have us to be rich in good works, Titus 2:14) is unceasingly to remember the grace of God which we have received in Christ, Rom. 12:1; 2 Cor. 8:9. Hence we reject as unchristian and foolish any attempt to produce good works by the compulsion of the Law or through carnal motives.

Since God has reconciled the whole world unto Himself through the vicarious life and death of His Son and has commanded that the reconciliation effected by Christ be proclaimed to men in the Gospel, to the end that they may believe it, 2 Cor. 5:18, 19; Rom. 1:5, therefore faith in Christ is the only way for men to obtain personal reconciliation with God, that is, forgiveness of sins, as both the Old and the New Testament Scriptures testify, Acts 10:43; John 3:16-18, 36. By this faith in Christ, through which men obtain the forgiveness of sins, is not meant any human effort to fulfill the Law of God after the example of Christ, but faith in the Gospel, that is, in the forgiveness of sins, or justification, which was fully earned for us by Christ and is offered by the Gospel. This faith justifies, not inasmuch as it is a work of man, but inasmuch as it lays hold of the grace offered, the forgiveness of sins, Rom. 4:16.

That's what most demoninations believe apart from the Catholics

Quote: If salvation was based on faith alone why would Jesus come to the Earth and perform all of those good deeds. His entire life was works. What Jesus taught us is that our ACTIONS ultimately define us for who we are. You cannot carry the spirit of the faith without the actions.

He performed those good deeds (from what Christianity says) that man did not and to live a perfet life and die on the cross for other peoples' sins. His life was to show that what man does has no effect. Good works would then come from faith. I believe both opinions are a load of BS but that's what the Bible said.

Quote: The priests dont literally say they are Christ during confession. They assume a christlike compassion.
At any rate every person is called to act as Christ since Christ was a man without sin and was filled with tremendous love.

It is still wrong. To act as anything but a messenger to the Bible is blasphemy.

Quote: Notice how all the prayer does is simply recognize Mary's divine position among God. We do not directly ask for her intervention. We ask her to pray for us. I ask my mother and father to pray for me on many occasions. During a Catholic Mass the community prays together on a variety of issues that pertain to the time. Mary is a part of the church just as any other member. The only way to contact her is through prayer.

Well the Bible commands that people only pray to God or Jesus. To pray to anything else is idolotry in the eyes of Chrsitianity. Mary according to Christianity is in heaven and has no more favor than anyone else. I'm speaking on the assumption that Chrsitianity is true. Mary cannot hear you and it is nothing but idolotry. She is dead.

Quote: I would hardly say we are hooked on confession. But maybe that is because you have never never felt the immense sense of relief that follows after leaving a confessional. It is truly one of the best feelings in the world.

I would never allow myself to fall into submission, intense humility and self-loathing. I know now that humans deserve more than this. We are sentients and we do not deserve the maniacal tyranny of such actions in the Bible and its agents in the church.

Quote: If it is a religion of sorrows why do thousands upon thousands of youth from all over the world gather for world youth day.

Submission. A mask of happiness to hide their self-loathing.

[Todd D.]

Quote: The Bible clearly said that works cannot save you. That's what the New Testament clearly says.
That's true, works alone do not save you in the same way that you do not "earn" the love of your parents, but if you keep lying to them, betraying them, and disobeying them, even though they still "love" you, eventually they will cut you off. Appeals to "relationships" mean little if the works aren't there to demonstrate it.

Quote: It is still wrong. To act as anything but a messenger to the Bible is blasphemy.
John specifically says that Jesus spoke to the Apostles, and I quote, "If YOU forgive the sins of any they are forgiven, and if you don't forgive the sins of any they are retained".

Quote: Well the Bible commands that people only pray to God or Jesus.
Where? Prove that statement.

Quote: To pray to anything else is idolotry in the eyes of Chrsitianity. Mary according to Christianity is in heaven and has no more favor than anyone else.
The angel that greeted Mary during the Annunciation referred to her as "Full of Grace" and "Highly Favored One". That certainly seems to indicaet that she has "more" favor than others.

[Darth Tiberius]

OK, here's why Mary should NOT be prayed to. I'm not a Christian in any respect but let me share some evidence from the Bible for all the Christians on the assumption that the Bible is real;

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." (King James Bible, Exodus 20:4,5).

The Bible clearly warns against even BOWING to a graven image. God is a jealous God and will not share His rightful glory with another.

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." (Isaiah 42:8)

Does the Pope need glasses? Isaiah 42:8 can only be interpreted one way...God is stingy when it comes to sharing glory and praise. It really makes God angry when anyone hails (praises) Mary. I have news for you my friend, Mary did not remain a virgin. After Jesus was virgin born through a miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit of God, Mary and Joseph married and had many children. Mary did not remain a virgin!

Mary was a SINNER. just like you and me. Mary had to trust Jesus Christ and ask Him for forgiveness of her sins to go to heaven. Mary is in heaven today ONLY because she believed upon Jesus Christ as Saviour. John 14:6 is very clear...

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

It is ONLY through Jesus Christ that anyone can go to heaven. This is simply because Jesus is the One Who paid the price for our sins upon the cross. If you hail Mary, then you are committing IDOLATRY.

"Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:" -Isaiah 2:8

God hates idolatry!

"The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day." -Isaiah 2:11

If you foolishly disobey the Bible by saying "Hail Mary," then you are committing idolatry. Mary is no more special than any other godly woman. If you idolize Mary, then you are practicing false religion. If you hail Mary, you are really worshipping and praising Satan.

[Todd D.]

Quote: The Bible clearly warns against even BOWING to a graven image. God is a jealous God and will not share His rightful glory with another.
And if people worshipped Mary you might have a point. Unless you have a problem with people bowing at Karate Dojos though, I don't think it's quite the same thing.

Quote: Does the Pope need glasses? Isaiah 42:8 can only be interpreted one way...
Ha, right. Because if there's one thing about Christianity, it's that everyone is in agreement with everyone. Sure thing.

Quote: It really makes God angry when anyone hails (praises) Mary.
Yeah, God must have been real pissed at the Annunciation when His ANGEL flat out said "HAIL MARY".

Quote: I have news for you my friend, Mary did not remain a virgin. After Jesus was virgin born through a miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit of God, Mary and Joseph married and had many children. Mary did not remain a virgin!
That statement can hardly be proven.

Quote: Mary was a SINNER. just like you and me. Mary had to trust Jesus Christ and ask Him for forgiveness of her sins to go to heaven. Mary is in heaven today ONLY because she believed upon Jesus Christ as Saviour. John 14:6 is very clear...
Mary rejoiceed in "God her savior" before Christ was even born, indicating that she was "saved" (as if it happens at one point...) at some point in the past. God saved Mary, there is no doubt about that, we just say that she was saved in a very unique, very special way.

Quote: It is ONLY through Jesus Christ that anyone can go to heaven. This is simply because Jesus is the One Who paid the price for our sins upon the cross. If you hail Mary, then you are committing IDOLATRY.
Idolotry is the worship of false gods. If you don't consider Mary to be a God(ddess), and you don't worship her, then ipso facto you can not be committing idolotry.

Quote: If you foolishly disobey the Bible by saying "Hail Mary," then you are committing idolatry. Mary is no more special than any other godly woman. If you idolize Mary, then you are practicing false religion. If you hail Mary, you are really worshipping and praising Satan.
So, again, the Angel at the Annunciation that said "Hail Mary", that was a Satanist?

[Darth Tiberius]

Try this site as well;

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/catholics.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/bowing_to_mary_is_a_sin.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/howtobesaved.htm

Now I want you to read carefully since you cannot possibly counter all these points and if you do then you prove my point that Catholics do not follow the Bible.

Todd D. wrote: And if people worshipped Mary you might have a point. Unless you have a problem with people bowing at Karate Dojos though, I don't think it's quite the same thing.

You pray to a deity. You don't pray to a mortal. God has said I allready quoted that bowing down and praying to anything else is not allowed. Bowing down is the same as praying. Praying shows homage. Bowing down in dojos is completely different since that isn't bowing down in the same way. That is just a sign of respect. You are being very pedantic or over-sarcastic.

Quote: Ha, right. Because if there's one thing about Christianity, it's that everyone is in agreement with everyone. Sure thing

Even though I think the Bible was written by biased men and was corrupted by years of passing messages and so cannot be considered the word of God I'd say to Christians that do consider it to be the Word of God tthat, that verse is so clear that it cannot be interpreted otherwise. Try and tell me how then if you disagree.

Quote: Yeah, God must have been real pissed at the Annunciation when His ANGEL flat out said "HAIL MARY".

Hail was also used as a greeting. The angel was not showing any devotion to her than it would of done to any other human being.

Quote: Mary rejoiceed in "God her savior" before Christ was even born, indicating that she was "saved" (as if it happens at one point...) at some point in the past. God saved Mary, there is no doubt about that, we just say that she was saved in a very unique, very special way.

From the Bible she was only saved by her faith and that's all. She wasn't saved before she gave birth at all. You are now making stuff up in the bible that hasn't been written. It seems a Catholic trait.

Quote: Idolotry is the worship of false gods. If you don't consider Mary to be a God(ddess), and you don't worship her, then ipso facto you can not be committing idolotry.

Praying is worshipping and showing homage to a deity. Mary isn't a deity and praying isn't just a simple form of communication from the living to the departed. Have you not listened to a word I said?

Basically if you are saying Hail Mary to pray to her or so that she can help get your sins forgiven then you are commiting idolotry. It says in the Bible that only Jesus can forgive sins since it was he that died on the cross. Mary did not die on the cross and she was a sinner. She cannot hear you like I said and thus cannot and should not be prayed to. Just like all the other "saints". When techincally a saint is any Christian.

Catholics claim this veneration given to Mary is in no way idolatrous because it is rendered to a creature and is not a substitute or an alternative to the worship owed to the Divinity. The highest type of worship or adoration referred to by Catholic theologians as "Latria" is accorded to Jesus Christ. The honor paid to Mary and the saints is infinitely lower. When it is given to the saints, it is referred to as "dulia" and when it is given to Mary it is referred to as "hyperdulia" because it surpassses the veneration given to the angels and saints combined.

Now the Bible does say that Mary was blessed among women because she was chosen to give birth to Jesus, the Christ-child, and as Christians we rightly hold Mary in high esteem. Surely her chaste example is one that should be praised and followed by women today.

But nowhere in the Bible do we find that Mary is a goddess or that she resides in heaven today honored as the Mother of God or the Queen of Heaven, or that she she is uniquely free from sin. The Bible never says she possessed special powers or authorities to dispense grace, mediate between man and God, or grant salvation to fallen man.

“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN...that they may provoke me to anger” -Jeremiah 7:18

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." -Isaiah 42:8

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" -Exodus 20:4

Do the Catholics need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven!!! Mary is in heaven. We are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! Here's another shocker...

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." -Exodus 20:5

Even if your not worshipping Mary, you ARE SINNING if you bow down to her because the Bible strictly forbids it in Exodus 20:5!

Do I need more quotes from the Bible? Don't believe me, look them up yourself!

[Todd D.]

Quote: Try this site as well;

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/catholics.html
Hey, taking advice from Fred Phelps? No thanks. You do know that Landover Baptist is the "God Hates F*gs" people, right? Why would you EVER cite them as a reliable resource for ANYTHING?

Quote: You pray to a deity. You don't pray to a mortal.
"To Pray" means to request, nothing more. Consider the old saying "I pray thee", it's nothing more than a request. You absolutely can request something from a mortal.

Quote: God has said I allready quoted that bowing down and praying to anything else is not allowed.
No, worshipping of anything else is not allowed.

Quote: Bowing down is the same as praying. Praying shows homage. Bowing down in dojos is completely different since that isn't bowing down in the same way. That is just a sign of respect. You are being very pedantic or over-sarcastic.
Actually I'm getting a point across that you yourself just admitted. Bowing is a sign of respect. Bowing to a statue of Mary is showing respect to Mary. Nothing more.

Quote: Even though I think the Bible was written by biased men and was corrupted by years of passing messages and so cannot be considered the word of God I'd say to Christians that do consider it to be the Word of God tthat, that verse is so clear that it cannot be interpreted otherwise. Try and tell me how then if you disagree.
Graven images are images that are worshipped AS gods. Golden calfs, money, Etc. Even in the OT, we see burning bushes and snake shaped staffs that God either created or ordered to be created as a means to display His essence. Revering these images does not fall within the realm of idolotry because we are worshipping THE GOD, not the image.

Quote: Hail was also used as a greeting. The angel was not showing any devotion to her than it would of done to any other human being.
The Angel refers to her as "full of Grace" as well as "Highly Favored One". That shows a certain level of devotion not present in other mortals.

Quote: From the Bible she was only saved by her faith and that's all. She wasn't saved before she gave birth at all. You are now making stuff up in the bible that hasn't been written. It seems a Catholic trait.
Mary says "My heart rejoices in God my savior" at the Annunciation, ie Jesus was not born yet, let alone resurrected. If Mary is already "saved", then it absolutely appears that she was saved in a different way. That's not making anything up, that's right there in Scripture.

Faith alone? So you're saying that had Mary had an abortion, it would have had the same results? The fact is that whether a product of her faith or not, her actions and participation placed her in a special position.

Quote: Praying is worshipping and showing homage to a deity.
False, already covered. Praying is requesting something that CAN be directed at a deity, but doesn't have to be. What you are referring to is "Adoration".

Quote: Basically if you are saying Hail Mary to pray to her or so that she can help get your sins forgiven then you are commiting idolotry.
Sure, if you change the definition of two different words ("Praying" and "Idolotry").

Quote: It says in the Bible that only Jesus can forgive sins since it was he that died on the cross.
Jesus very clearly and very explicitly bestowed that power upon the Apostles as well as their successors in John.

[Darth Tiberius]

Before I start, you have again ignored every single quote that I made on the last post. Cannot you not argue against your own holy book? I quote those things for a reason. And you yet again ignore it.

http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=52&qa_id=111

http://members.aol.com/Member888/whoismary.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/RC8.htm

Todd D. wrote: Hey, taking advice from Fred Phelps? No thanks. You do know that Landover Baptist is the "God Hates F*gs" people, right? Why would you EVER cite them as a reliable resource for ANYTHING?

The guy is a nutcase and I abhore his teachings but he was right about Catholic idolotry.

Quote: "To Pray" means to request, nothing more. Consider the old saying "I pray thee", it's nothing more than a request. You absolutely can request something from a mortal.

Wrong The offical meaning of "pray" is "To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship". So Mary must fall under the other object of worship. That's the official meaning of praying and people have never prayed to someone unless it is a their deity or idol. Mary WAS a mortal! That's why she's in heaven now. You prove my point.

Quote: No, worshipping of anything else is not allowed.

*sigh* I just said that. I repeat

Darth Tiberius wrote: God has said (I allready quoted) that bowing down and praying to anything else is not allowed.

See?

Quote: Actually I'm getting a point across that you yourself just admitted. Bowing is a sign of respect. Bowing to a statue of Mary is showing respect to Mary. Nothing more.

For the love of.......! You really need to listen more! Bowing in a dojo is totally different from praying. Bowing down in the Bible is to pray and kneel. Martial Artists bow for a totally different reason. You are not bowing to Mary. You are praying and "talking" to her! Martial Artists are making no prayer requests to anyone when they bow. Those are two very VERY different things. For the love of ****! You are not only showing respect to her. You are praying to her to get favor. You are doing more than bowing. How many times must I repeat this point across!

Quote: Graven images are images that are worshipped AS gods. Golden calfs, money, Etc. Even in the OT, we see burning bushes and snake shaped staffs that God either created or ordered to be created as a means to display His essence. Revering these images does not fall within the realm of idolotry because we are worshipping THE GOD, not the image.

It is still the image of Mary you are praying to. You are praying to Mary who is not God. Who is not a deity and cannot hear you. That is idolotry.

Quote: The Angel refers to her as "full of Grace" as well as "Highly Favored One". That shows a certain level of devotion not present in other mortals.

In Luke 1:28, Mary is called “favored one” (literally, “endowed or filled with grace”) but only in the sense that God, by grace, chose her to be the human mother who would give birth to the Christ child. This same idea and word is used of all believers in Ephesians 1:6. We have all been endowed with grace. To say any more than this is to add to what the text of Scripture says.

I've searched through many different translations of the mainstream bible for 'full of grace', and nowhere is Mary called that. She is told by the angel that she is 'favoured by god', or has 'found favour in god's eyes'. So? David was favoured in god's eyes. At one time Saul was favoured in God's eyes. Samuel was favoured in God's eyes. We are favoured in God's eyes.

The truth is that Mary was just another human being who was given the blessing (and curse) of being the mother of God's child. Think of the pain and anguish she went through when he died. Not all roses.

Mary was married, and according to evidence in the bible, had other children to Joseph. She may have been a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but for her to have other children to Joseph meant that at some stage in life she gave up her virginity to him. She was an ordinary woman living in an ordinary world. The only thing extraordinary about her was her son.

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Mary hears our prayers. It is not Mary who 'stands at the right hand of the Father, and ever lives to make intercession for us'. Nowhere in the bible is Mary given any role in our salvation or relationship with God. In fact, she's hardly mentioned past his birth. We're told about the visit to Jerusalem, and that Jesus grew in favour with God and man. Then Jesus starts his public ministry. The only times Mary is ever mentioned after that are the wedding at Cana, when his Disciples tell him she is looking for him, at his crucifixion and at his resurrection.

There is nothing - I repeat - NOTHING in the bible that portrays her as anything but a regular girl who was favoured by God and chosen to be the mother of the Messiah. To label her as anything else is idolatry and worship of a false god. The Apostles never mentioned her as such in their teachings, and it is odd that only the traditional Catholics with their rites and rituals (of which some people consider idolatry and false religion) teach this doctrine. No other mainstream or unorthodox Christian church teaches on the deification of Mary, and I guarantee that thousands upon thousands of scholars and researchers have examined the bible, and none that I know of have come up with any support for Mary worship.

Now the Bible does say that Mary was blessed among women because she was chosen to give birth to Jesus, the Christ-child, and as Christians we rightly hold Mary in high esteem. Surely her chaste example is one that should be praised and followed by women today.

But nowhere in the Bible do we find that Mary is a goddess or that she resides in heaven today honored as the Mother of God or the Queen of Heaven, or that she she is uniquely free from sin. The Bible never says she possessed special powers or authorities to dispense grace, mediate between man and God, or grant salvation to fallen man.

She is no more favored then anyone. She recieved a blessing and that made her favored in the way that she was fortunate. She is not favored in the way that every other woman or person is under her.

Quote: Mary says "My heart rejoices in God my savior" at the Annunciation, ie Jesus was not born yet, let alone resurrected. If Mary is already "saved", then it absolutely appears that she was saved in a different way. That's not making anything up, that's right there in Scripture.

Faith alone? So you're saying that had Mary had an abortion, it would have had the same results? The fact is that whether a product of her faith or not, her actions and participation placed her in a special position.

The Bible says nothing about Mary ascending into heaven in some special way. She went to heaven as all do through faith in Christ as God’s Son who died for our sin, including hers.

Saved? She was saved not by giving birth to Jesus! She was saved by her faith. Giving birth to Jesus changes nothing! Have you not listened or just are deaf? I'm not saying Mary had an abortion and I have no idea where you pulled that crap out of the air. She was in no more special position than anyone else and she did nothing to get the clessing of Jeus upon her! There was no good works. You are ignoring yet again every Bible verse I have quoted at you. Why not answer it from that perspective instead of repeating back what your Sunday School teachers say to you every Sunday? It would get this debate somewhere.

Quote: False, already covered. Praying is requesting something that CAN be directed at a deity, but doesn't have to be. What you are referring to is "Adoration".

You again mistake the basic definition of "praying".

Quote: Sure, if you change the definition of two different words ("Praying" and "Idolotry").

I haven't changed any definitions at all.

Quote: Jesus very clearly and very explicitly bestowed that power upon the Apostles as well as their successors in John.

They cannot forgive sins but they are only mouthpieces that act with Jesus' authority as messengers. Through them or without them the same effect happens that any sin can be forgiven by praying to Jesus or God. Not to the saints and Mary.#

Sadly, people are venerating Mary through tradition, not scriptural truth.

Many myths have arisen about the humble maidservant who was chosen by God to bring Jesus Christ physically into this world. The evidence is that Mary was a virgin until the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:24-25), thus fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 7:4.

However Mary was a sinner, just like the rest of us. Levitical Law required new mothers to offer both a burnt offering and a sin offering to God to restore their ceremonial cleanliness (Levit. 12:6-8). It is recorded that Mary fulfilled this requirement in Luke 2:21-24. She was recognizing her personal sin and need of a saviour.

The veneration and/or worship of Mary is a blasphemy, according to Exodus 20:3-4 and Matthew 4:10. The teaching that she ascended bodily to heaven as a perpetual virgin was only made official doctrine in 1950 and is patently false. If such an event had occurred why was this not recorded in the Bible; and why did it take 1900 years to make that decision? The transporting to heaven of both Enoch and Elijah were recorded, and they were only human beings. This false teaching is adding to the Holy Scriptures, and God speaks a severe punishment on those who do this (see Revelation 22:18-19; Deuteronomy 4:2 & Proverbs 30:6).

The elevation by some of Mary to the "Queen of Heaven" and "Co-mediatrix with Jesus Christ" is not found in the Bible, and is quite contrary to it. There is only one mediator between God and man and His name is Jesus, according to 1 Timothy 2:5, and this is confirmed by Hebrews 8:6, 9:15 & 12:24.

The Bible is absolutely clear that we are to worship God alone. The only instances of anyone other than God receiving worship in the Bible are false gods, which are Satan and his demons. All followers of the Lord God refuse worship. Peter and the apostles refused to be worshipped (Acts 10:25-26; 14:13-14). The holy angels refuse to be worshipped (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). The response is always the same, "Worship God!"

Catholics attempt to "bypass" these clear Scriptural principles by claiming they do not worship Mary or saints, but rather that they only "venerate" Mary and the saints. A definition of "venerate" is "to regard with respect or reverence." There is nothing wrong with respecting those faithful Christians who have gone before us (see Hebrews chapter 11). There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. The Bible describes Mary as "highly favored" by God (Luke 1:28). At the same time, there is no instruction in the Bible to revere those whom have gone to Heaven. We are to follow their example, yes, but revere or venerate, no.

The major way Catholics "venerate" Mary and the saints is by praying to them. As the following article demonstrates, prayer to anyone other than God alone is anti-Biblical - http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html. Another way Catholics "venerate" Mary and the saints is by creating statues and images of them. Many Catholics use images of Mary and/or the saints as "good luck charms." Any cursory reading of the Bible will reveal this practice as blatant idolatry (Exodus 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 12:12; 1 John 5:21).

The terminology is not the issue. Whether the practice is described as "worship" or "veneration," the problem is the same. The Bible nowhere instructs us to revere, pray to, rely on, or "idolize" anyone other than God. We are to worship God alone. Glory, praise, and honor belong to God alone. Only God is worthy to "...receive glory and honor and power..." (Revelation 4:11). God alone is worthy to receive our worship, adoration, and praise (Nehemiah 9:6; Revelation 15:4).

Here's what the Catholic church calls Mary and Bible verses to counter it;

The Church calls Mary the “inexpressible gift of the Almighty,” (384)

The Bible in Jn.3:16 says, Christ is the gift from the Father. This is high treason to compete Mary to Jesus her creator.

Rom. 5:15: “… the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.”

Rom. 5:18: “so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”

Rom. 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

2 Cor. 9:15: “Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!”

In Catholicism Mary is called the “Cause of Our joy,” (385)

The Bible-Rom. 14:17, “the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.” Ps 16:11, “in Your presence is fullness of joy.”

Mary is called the “Gate of Heaven,”(387 )

The Bible-Jesus said in Jn.14:6 he is the way (the gate) Jesus says in Jn.10:2, He is the shepherd of the gate if anyone tries to come up any other way they are a thief and a robber.

Mary is called the “Morning Star,”(386)

The Bible-in Rev 22:16, “I, Jesus, … I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Mary is the “Mother of Mercy (2677)

The Bible-In 2 Corinthians 1:3God is the “Father of mercies.” Paul writes in 2 Tim 1:2,” To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.”

The same is written to Titus 1:4. Speaking of Christ Heb. 9:5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat Heb. 4:16 the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. 2 Jn. 1:3, “ Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:21: “looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”

Mary is called the “Refuge of Sinners (388)

The Bible-Ps 9:9, “The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.” Ps. 31:2, “deliver me speedily; be my rock of refuge, a fortress of defense to save me.” Mt.11:22 “Jesus says come unto him.” Nowhere does he ever hint to go through his mother to get to him.

Mary is called “Our Lady of Perpetual Help”( 389 )

The Bible-Ps 46:1: God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.”

Mary with Christ, is said to be “... the instrument and guardian of our salvation” (390)

The Bible-Ps 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD. Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah Ps 38:22 Make haste to help me, O Lord, my salvation!

Luke 2:30: “For my eyes have seen Your salvation” (speaking of Jesus)

Acts 4:12: ,”Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Rom. 1:16: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.”

The Church promises that “all those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.”(391)

The Catholic church teaches that one should entrust themselves to Mary, surrendering “‘the hour of our death’ wholly to her care.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, (2677)

The Church describes Mary as the “Seat of Wisdom. (397 The Scriptures describe God as the source of all wisdom (James 1:5). The Church says that Mary is the “Mother of the living.(398) The Bible says that God is the God of the living (Mark 12:27).

Mary, according to the Church, is “‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia)”(493) God dwells in perfect holiness seated on a throne guarded by Seraphim (Isaiah 6:1-3).

Therefore the blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, AND MEDIATRIX” (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

The Bible-1 Tim 2:5 “ For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus”

Heb 8:6 inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.”

Heb 9:15” He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death.” “To Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant” (Heb. 12:24)

Mary did not die for your sins so she cannot be called a mediator for the redemption of sins in anyway shape or fashion.It is wrong to apply to her what only Jesus, the God/man could do.

“ And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”
(I Jn. 2:1) Mary cannot be your advocate because she does not have the righteousness required.

And here's some evidence from the Bible to go against Catholic traditions.

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.
1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]
Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term Holy Father is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before He and His disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - None of these is mentioned in the Bible. It is a sin to add to the Bible.

Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
The pope is a man who takes upon himself honor which belongs to no human being. Even the very name by which he allows himself to be called (Holy Father) is highly presumptuous and blasphemous (see above).

One does not need the pope to determine what God's will is. The Bible says that God has given the Holy Ghost to each believer and that He (the Holy Ghost) guides and leads us into all truth. All a believer needs is the Bible and the Holy Ghost to know the will of the Lord. Popery has been treacherous, but worse, each pope has been the blind leading the blind. Jesus said that both will fall into the ditch. Catholics, come out of this system that cannot save and know Jesus for youself, intimate and up-close.

NOTE: Purgatory is supposedly a place where a person is purified of sins--even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the one that purifies us of our sins. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... When a person dies their eternal home is sealed--heaven or hell--no in between. Hebrews 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved. An apple does not make its tree an apple tree, it was already an apple tree before any apples appeared. When you see the apples; however, you know what kind of tree it is. If a person is saved, he will shew forth good works because he has the spirit of Christ in him. The good works don't make him saved only the blood of Jesus can do that.

I John
1:7b ...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Acts 16:31b
...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about James 2:20 "faith without works is dead"?

The kind of faith that saves is a faith that shows forth the works of God. Even devils believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Many people believe in Jesus but they won't follow Him. They have a faith, but not the kind that saves. If a person has true faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost dwells in him and will cause good works will show forth in his life. The good works confirm the faith by which the person was saved. James 2:21-23 uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed God so when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham, out of his faith in God, offered up Isaac.


* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

* * * *
There are many other scriptures that could have been used here to testify against the doctrines of the catholic religion. There are also many other doctrines of the catholic religion which could have been refuted (e.g. the sacraments, receiving the Holy Ghost, salvation through the catholic religion, penance, rosary, etc.).

* * * *
The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is an often used saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That is really pitiful on several fronts--1) mass is blasphemous and people who trust in it are hell-bound 2) there's no such thing as purgatory and 3) the gift of God is without price.

Roman Catholicism today is probably the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has healthy real estate interests. The bottom line is, if you want to get right with God, you have to go through His Son, Jesus Christ, not some religious organization.

[Aqualung]

Shady wrote: Is Christianity the only religion that's right? I have no idea, and neither do you. Nobody knows ANYTHING for sure, and to claim otherwise is being simply dishonest.
How do you know what I or anybody else knows? Does your not knowing mean that nobody else can possibly know? What exactly do you use to back up the claim that "Nobody knows ANYTHING for sure, and to claim otherwise is being simply dishonest."

[Todd D.]

Quote: The guy is a nutcase and I abhore his teachings but he was right about Catholic idolotry.
Ha. Sure. Convenient for you.

Quote: Wrong The offical meaning of "pray" is "To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship". So Mary must fall under the other object of worship. That's the official meaning of praying and people have never prayed to someone unless it is a their deity or idol.
Official definition according to who? Here is Wordreference.com's definition:
"pray
A verb
1 beg, implore, pray - Call upon in supplication; entreat; "I beg you to stop!"
2 pray - Address God; say a prayer "

So while definition 2 clearly indicates that addresses to God are prayers, definition 1 very clearly indicates that not all prayers MUST be forms of worship, but can rather be synonyms for Begging or Imploring. So no, what you posted is not the "official" definition.

Quote: *sigh* I just said that. I repeat
Quote: God has said (I allready quoted) that bowing down and praying to anything else is not allowed.
See?
What I see is you again confusing "Pray" with "Worship". Since we just established that they are not the same thing, you did NOT just say that.

Quote: It is still the image of Mary you are praying to. You are praying to Mary who is not God. Who is not a deity and cannot hear you. That is idolotry.
The validity of whether the saints can hear you is an issue entirely seperated from idolotry. I believe that Revelation makes very clear that the Saints can, in fact, hear you.

Quote: Now the Bible does say that Mary was blessed among women because she was chosen to give birth to Jesus, the Christ-child, and as Christians we rightly hold Mary in high esteem. Surely her chaste example is one that should be praised and followed by women today.
Agree.

Quote: But nowhere in the Bible do we find that Mary is a goddess
Nowhere in Catholic theology do you find Mary as a goddess.

Quote: or that she resides in heaven today honored as the Mother of God or the Queen of Heaven
Revelation makes at least allegoical allusions to that.

Quote: or that she she is uniquely free from sin.
The annunciation again makes at least a hint at that ideal.

Quote: The Bible never says she possessed special powers or authorities to dispense grace, mediate between man and God, or grant salvation to fallen man.
Neither does the Catholic Church, at least not in the way that you seem to mean it.

Quote: Saved? She was saved not by giving birth to Jesus! She was saved by her faith. Giving birth to Jesus changes nothing! Have you not listened or just are deaf?
I never said that she was saved by giving birth to Jesus. I said that she was saved BEFORE that.

Quote: 'm not saying Mary had an abortion and I have no idea where you pulled that crap out of the air.
I think you are the one having the trouble reading. I never ever said that Mary had an abortion. What I said was "HAD Mary had an abortion", aka a conditional phrase. A hypothetical.

Quote: You are ignoring yet again every Bible verse I have quoted at you. Why not answer it from that perspective instead of repeating back what your Sunday School teachers say to you every Sunday?
I converted to Catholicism when I was 18, I didn't go to Sunday School.

Quote: You again mistake the basic definition of "praying".
See the above definition from WordReference.com. I don't believe I am the one that is mistaken.

Quote: They cannot forgive sins but they are only mouthpieces that act with Jesus' authority as messengers. Through them or without them the same effect happens that any sin can be forgiven by praying to Jesus or God. Not to the saints and Mary.
The act of confession is one entirely seperate from the invocation of the Saints, though both James and Revelation lend credence to the idea that the prayers of the Saints are quite effective.

EDIT: It's a little dishonest for you to accuse me of not answering your questions when those questions are Edits that you have added in later.

[Darth Tiberius]

Todd D. wrote: EDIT: It's a little dishonest for you to accuse me of not answering your questions when those questions are Edits that you have added in later.

All my questions were not edited in later. Only some more Bible verses and facts unrealted to Mary were edited in. So my miain points and evidence from the Bible still is consistently ignored.

Quote: Official definition according to who? Here is Wordreference.com's definition:
"pray
A verb
1 beg, implore, pray - Call upon in supplication; entreat; "I beg you to stop!"
2 pray - Address God; say a prayer "

So while definition 2 clearly indicates that addresses to God are prayers, definition 1 very clearly indicates that not all prayers MUST be forms of worship, but can rather be synonyms for Begging or Imploring. So no, what you posted is not the "official" definition.

From the official Oxford dictionary it says

1. To ask earnestly, humbly, or supplicatingly, to beseech; to make devout petition to; to ask (a person) for something as a favour or act of grace; esp. in religious use, to make devout and humble supplication to (God, or an object of worship). arch. a. with personal object only.

And even then I have given many reasons why it is wrong to even beseech Mary for anything. To even ask her for anything is disobeying God's command from the verses I listed previously. So whichever one of us is right the fact still stands. Mary cannot give acts of grace and that's from the official meaning of "pray". Look above. To ask for a favour ot act of grace.

Quote: What I see is you again confusing "Pray" with "Worship". Since we just established that they are not the same thing, you did NOT just say that.

Even if worship isn't intended I HAVE given reasons why even asking her for anything is wrong!!! Nowhere in the bible does it say that Mary hears our prayers. It is not Mary who 'stands at the right hand of the Father, and ever lives to make intercession for us'. Nowhere in the bible is Mary given any role in our salvation or relationship with God. The veneration and/or worship of Mary is a blasphemy, according to Exodus 20:3-4 and Matthew 4:10. See veneration or worship.

Now listen to this carefully;

There is only one mediator between God and man and His name is Jesus, according to 1 Timothy 2:5, and this is confirmed by Hebrews 8:6, 9:15 & 12:24.

Got it now?

Quote: The validity of whether the saints can hear you is an issue entirely seperated from idolotry. I believe that Revelation makes very clear that the Saints can, in fact, hear you.

Like I just said there is only one mediator. Jesus (God since part of the trinity). Prove to me from revelation then that they can hear you.

Quote: Darth Tiberius wrote: or that she resides in heaven today honored as the Mother of God or the Queen of Heaven

Revelation makes at least allegoical allusions to that.

Again prove it.

Quote: Darth Tiberius wrote: or that she she is uniquely free from sin.

The annunciation again makes at least a hint at that ideal.

No it doesn't and that would be blasphemous since it says that Jesus was the only one free of sin since he was the son of God. Mary is not. Mary is a sinner. A definition of "venerate" is "to regard with respect or reverence." There is nothing wrong with respecting those faithful Christians who have gone before us (see Hebrews chapter 11). There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. The Bible describes Mary as "highly favored" by God (Luke 1:28). At the same time, there is no instruction in the Bible to revere those whom have gone to Heaven. We are to follow their example, yes, but revere or venerate, no.

Quote: I never said that she was saved by giving birth to Jesus. I said that she was saved BEFORE that.

She went to heaven as all do through faith in Christ as God’s Son who died for our sin, including hers. There is nothing in the Bible to say otherwise. It says that she was just a plain girl and she did nothing before.

Quote: I think you are the one having the trouble reading. I never ever said that Mary had an abortion. What I said was "HAD Mary had an abortion", aka a conditional phrase. A hypothetical.

Your hypotheitcal supposition was muddled then. OK, HAD she had an abortion she still could of been saved. So could Judas. We know this since it says Judas could still of been saved but rejected God's grace. And so the same applies to Mary. Except in those days it would of been very hard to kill the baby in a abortion and prevent a birth without killing yourself.

Quote: I converted to Catholicism when I was 18, I didn't go to Sunday School.

The argue the verses and don't ignore them. I put them up there for a reason. As backing for my evidence. You seem to sound like a Sunday school student.

Quote: The act of confession is one entirely seperate from the invocation of the Saints, though both James and Revelation lend credence to the idea that the prayers of the Saints are quite effective.

Prove it. And that still from what I said doesn't try and make a similarity between the act of confession and the invocation of the Saints. I'm saying that with or without confession to a preacher or a man of God you can still get your sins forgiven. They cannot forgive sins but they are only mouthpieces that act with Jesus' authority as messengers. Through them or without them the same effect happens that any sin can be forgiven by praying to Jesus or God. Not to the saints and Mary.

Now can you please acknowledge or even debate the verses with what I said. And maybe even the websites. They all back up my points.

[Shady]

CrossEyedMary wrote: Shady wrote: Is Christianity the only religion that's right? I have no idea, and neither do you. Nobody knows ANYTHING for sure, and to claim otherwise is being simply dishonest.
How do you know what I or anybody else knows? Does your not knowing mean that nobody else can possibly know? What exactly do you use to back up the claim that "Nobody knows ANYTHING for sure, and to claim otherwise is being simply dishonest."

You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.

[Aqualung]

Shady wrote: You can not empirically prove that any religion is one hundred percent correct. That is the entire point of my post. I do not claim to know whether or not God exists, I believe what I choose to believe but to claim I know the truth without error with any degree of certainity is dishonest. Therefore you cannot claim that Christianity is "right" anymore then Islam or Judaism.
But how do you know that I cannot KNOW whether or not Christianity is correct. That was the entire point of MY post.

[EugenicHegemony]

Quote: Is Christianity the only religion that's right? Since Jesus is a made up fairytale, I doubt it. Go ahead and worship the human face. It's a lie, just as christmas, and the birth of christ.

As far as I'm concerned: you can flush any and all organized religion.

[Todd D.]

Quote: From the official Oxford dictionary it says

1. To ask earnestly, humbly, or supplicatingly, to beseech; to make devout petition to; to ask (a person) for something as a favour or act of grace; esp. in religious use, to make devout and humble supplication to (God, or an object of worship). arch. a. with personal object only.
Yep, look at the definition. "To ask earnestly, humbly, or supplicantly SUCH AS a favor or act of grace ESPECIALLY in religious use." Notice the two capitalized words. SUCH AS is an example, not a requirement, and ESPECIALLY means that it is mostly used in religious usage. It does NOT have to be for an act of grace, nor does it HAVE to be in religious usage (though I will concede that, in the context that we are speaking, it is used in a religious sense). Your own definition shows that it is NOT necessarily worship, though it can be. If we focused ADORATION towards Mary, then you would be correct, since adoration is exclusively for worship, but we are talking about the more general term "prayer", which while it CAN be worship, does not necessarily HAVE to be. The definition that you provided backs this up.

Quote: And even then I have given many reasons why it is wrong to even beseech Mary for anything. To even ask her for anything is disobeying God's command from the verses I listed previously. So whichever one of us is right the fact still stands. Mary cannot give acts of grace and that's from the official meaning of "pray". Look above. To ask for a favour ot act of grace
The only quote that you have provided to indicate that it is "wrong" to beseech Mary for anything is that there is one mediator between God and Man, and I have never denied that. However, there are NUMEROUS verses throughout the New Testment to indicate that we can pray for each other, and that the Saints pray for us. I provided these earlier in the thread. Here are a few:
"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" - Ephesians 6:18
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Revelation 5:8
"Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." - James 5:16

Quote: Even if worship isn't intended I HAVE given reasons why even asking her for anything is wrong!!! Nowhere in the bible does it say that Mary hears our prayers.
...except for the above mentioned verses.

Quote: It is not Mary who 'stands at the right hand of the Father, and ever lives to make intercession for us'.
Well, at least the first part is true. Mary does not stand at the right hand of the Father.

Quote: Nowhere in the bible is Mary given any role in our salvation or relationship with God.
Really? Who exactly brought Jesus in to this world? Who raised Him? Who beseeched Him to perform the miracle at the Wedding of Cana? Who was there at the foot of the Cross? There absolutely is text in the Bible that Mary is given a certain role in salvation, even if it is a participatory role.

Quote: The veneration and/or worship of Mary is a blasphemy, according to Exodus 20:3-4 and Matthew 4:10. See veneration or worship.

Now listen to this carefully;

There is only one mediator between God and man and His name is Jesus, according to 1 Timothy 2:5, and this is confirmed by Hebrews 8:6, 9:15 & 12:24.

Got it now?
Quite frankly, I believe that you are misinterpreting that text to exclude stuff that you have personal bias against for whatever reason. Veneration of Mary is no more blasphemy than the respect shown to ANYONE else.

Quote: Like I just said there is only one mediator. Jesus (God since part of the trinity). Prove to me from revelation then that they can hear you.
I'll quote it again just in case you missed it:
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Revelation 5:8

Quote: Again prove it.
"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.[...] She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne." - Revelation 12:1-5
Now, I absolutely agree that the interpretation can be used to suggest that the verse is talking about the figurative Nation of Israel, rather than the Virgin Mary, but likewise I believe that if you are being fair, you can agree that it's not out of the realm of possibility that the verse CAN BE referring to Mary as well.

Quote: No it doesn't and that would be blasphemous since it says that Jesus was the only one free of sin since he was the son of God.
The Angel greeted Mary is "Full of Grace", indicating that she had been spared from Sin, in my opinion. Don't disagree? That's fine, but don't tell me it's blasphemous when clearly it isn't.

Quote: A definition of "venerate" is "to regard with respect or reverence." There is nothing wrong with respecting those faithful Christians who have gone before us (see Hebrews chapter 11). There is nothing wrong with honoring Mary as the earthly mother of Jesus. The Bible describes Mary as "highly favored" by God (Luke 1:28). At the same time, there is no instruction in the Bible to revere those whom have gone to Heaven. We are to follow their example, yes, but revere or venerate, no.
So wait, you just said that there was nothing wrong with it, but then you said that there WAS something wrong with it?

Quote: She went to heaven as all do through faith in Christ as God’s Son who died for our sin, including hers. There is nothing in the Bible to say otherwise. It says that she was just a plain girl and she did nothing before.
The Bible is a narrative on the life of Christ, not the life of Mary. Speaking of Mary's history prior to the birth of Christ as well as following it would be quite uneccessary. You are extrapolating what you want to take from the narrative because it serves your purpose, but the fact is that the Bible never says that Mary was "just a plain girl" nor does it say that she "did nothing before". All of those details are absent from the text.

Quote: Your hypotheitcal supposition was muddled then. OK, HAD she had an abortion she still could of been saved. So could Judas. We know this since it says Judas could still of been saved but rejected God's grace. And so the same applies to Mary. Except in those days it would of been very hard to kill the baby in a abortion and prevent a birth without killing yourself.
Sigh. No more analogies for you, you don't seem to grasp them. You said that it didn't matter what she did. I said that if she had an abortion with Jesus, I dare say that would have mattered.

Quote: The argue the verses and don't ignore them. I put them up there for a reason. As backing for my evidence. You seem to sound like a Sunday school student.
Ha, you quoted Fred Phelps, a man so morally bankrupt that anything he says is pure garbage. I don't even need to respond to that tripe. Why don't you just quote Jack Chick and Alberto Rivera while you are at it?

Quote: Prove it.
Again from the above verses:
"Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. " - James 5:16

Quote: I'm saying that with or without confession to a preacher or a man of God you can still get your sins forgiven. They cannot forgive sins but they are only mouthpieces that act with Jesus' authority as messengers.
That's not what Jesus said. From John:
"(Jesus) said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.'" - John 20:22-23
That's not "just a mouthpiece", that is very clearly bestowing the authority of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors.

Quote: Through them or without them the same effect happens that any sin can be forgiven by praying to Jesus or God. Not to the saints and Mary.
In certain situations I agree with you, at least the first part. However, the idea tha "Confession" is entirely heretical or even unbeneficial is one that I do object.

[Darth Tiberius]

Todd D. wrote: Yep, look at the definition. "To ask earnestly, humbly, or supplicantly SUCH AS a favor or act of grace ESPECIALLY in religious use." Notice the two capitalized words. SUCH AS is an example, not a requirement, and ESPECIALLY means that it is mostly used in religious usage. It does NOT have to be for an act of grace, nor does it HAVE to be in religious usage (though I will concede that, in the context that we are speaking, it is used in a religious sense). Your own definition shows that it is NOT necessarily worship, though it can be. If we focused ADORATION towards Mary, then you would be correct, since adoration is exclusively for worship, but we are talking about the more general term "prayer", which while it CAN be worship, does not necessarily HAVE to be. The definition that you provided backs this up.

Even if it is to ask for a favor and not to worship the fact still remains that the Bible forbids anyone to pray to anyone in heaven aprt from Jesus/God. Praying to Mary would be idlotry. Please see the quoted Bible verses.

Quote: The only quote that you have provided to indicate that it is "wrong" to beseech Mary for anything is that there is one mediator between God and Man, and I have never denied that. However, there are NUMEROUS verses throughout the New Testment to indicate that we can pray for each other, and that the Saints pray for us. I provided these earlier in the thread. Here are a few:
"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" - Ephesians 6:18
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Revelation 5:8
"Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." - James 5:16

Yes. There is only one mediator. that's what it clearly says. So why reject that verse? My verse's all have been very clear and should answer your questions.

The Ephesians verse is not saying at all that the Saints are any help when praying except to reflect their example. The verse isn't backing ay thing up. It doesn't say that the saints or Mary can hear you and its says with supplication in the spirit. Mentioning to the Holy Spirit.

The revelation verse gain is not permitting any prayers to the saints. It is describing the prayers of the saints to show their homage to God.

The James verse is to pray for one another. Not to pray to one another.And the effectual fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much. That is saying that as a man who is with god has their prayers to be more likely to be answered by god. Again it is not permitting anything.

Quote: Darth Tiberius wrote: Even if worship isn't intended I HAVE given reasons why even asking her for anything is wrong!!! Nowhere in the bible does it say that Mary hears our prayers.

...except for the above mentioned verses.

You haven't described how the above verses are saying this and it is obviouslty not suggesting or telling you should pray to Mary.

Quote: Really? Who exactly brought Jesus in to this world? Who raised Him? Who beseeched Him to perform the miracle at the Wedding of Cana? Who was there at the foot of the Cross? There absolutely is text in the Bible that Mary is given a certain role in salvation, even if it is a participatory role.

Mary raised Jesus but she is still a average woman. A sinner. And it says nowhere she is anything more. It instead clearly says that she was saved by her own faith and by the grace of God.

Quote: Quite frankly, I believe that you are misinterpreting that text to exclude stuff that you have personal bias against for whatever reason. Veneration of Mary is no more blasphemy than the respect shown to ANYONE else.

Not from what the verses said.

Quote: I'll quote it again just in case you missed it:
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Revelation 5:8

It says nowhere in there that they can hear you. It shows the praise of the saints to God. It describes them in heaven with their prayers to God./ It is not saying that tehy are answering anyone's prayers. You are adding something to the verses that is not there.

Quote: The Angel greeted Mary is "Full of Grace", indicating that she had been spared from Sin, in my opinion. Don't disagree? That's fine, but don't tell me it's blasphemous when clearly it isn't.

She hasn't been spared of sin. It says she was a sinner liek everyone else and her grace is not the grace of God's. She was full of the grace of god which is the grace God has given to her and for her. Not to Mary to anyone else. Thus to say otherwise is blasphemy.

Quote: So wait, you just said that there was nothing wrong with it, but then you said that there WAS something wrong with it?

To follow their example yes. To venerate and revere no. No contradiction

Quote: The Bible is a narrative on the life of Christ, not the life of Mary. Speaking of Mary's history prior to the birth of Christ as well as following it would be quite uneccessary. You are extrapolating what you want to take from the narrative because it serves your purpose, but the fact is that the Bible never says that Mary was "just a plain girl" nor does it say that she "did nothing before". All of those details are absent from the text.

You're the one who said that it was something that Mary did before is that what saved her. It says clearly in the Bible from the verses I mentioned that she was a sinner like everyone else.

Quote: Sigh. No more analogies for you, you don't seem to grasp them. You said that it didn't matter what she did. I said that if she had an abortion with Jesus, I dare say that would have mattered.

I felt you were unclear.

Quote: Ha, you quoted Fred Phelps, a man so morally bankrupt that anything he says is pure garbage. I don't even need to respond to that tripe. Why don't you just quote Jack Chick and Alberto Rivera while you are at it?

If you want to ignore Fred Phelps that is OK since he is a nutjob but the verses and the evidence I have given you should not be ignored.

Quote: That's not what Jesus said. From John:
"(Jesus) said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.'" - John 20:22-23
That's not "just a mouthpiece", that is very clearly bestowing the authority of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors.

He sent them as messengers. Remember the fishers among men stuff? They forgive sins to show a representation as how God forgives sins. There is no clear authority to speak for God. Instead it says that allthough sins are forgiven and that they are messengers they still have no authority to speak for god. That shows the biblical heresy of the Pope.

[Todd D.]

Quote: Even if it is to ask for a favor and not to worship the fact still remains that the Bible forbids anyone to pray to anyone in heaven aprt from Jesus/God.
Here's where I get to say "prove it". Show me one verse that says praying to Mary or any of the Saints is forbidden.

Quote: Yes. There is only one mediator. that's what it clearly says. So why reject that verse? My verse's all have been very clear and should answer your questions.
Jesus is the mediator between us and God in that He is the one that manifests that relationship. Our relationship with Jesus, however, is facilitated by Christians all around the world, both alive and in heaven. Mary falls in to the latter category. It is not "rejecting" any verse.

Quote: The Ephesians verse is not saying at all that the Saints are any help when praying except to reflect their example. The verse isn't backing ay thing up. It doesn't say that the saints or Mary can hear you and its says with supplication in the spirit. Mentioning to the Holy Spirit.
The Ephesians verse indicates that Saints praying for other Christians is effective.

Quote: The revelation verse gain is not permitting any prayers to the saints. It is describing the prayers of the saints to show their homage to God.
No, it is showing that the prayers of the Saints are manifest in front of God. It speaks nothing of what they are praying, and I don't think it is a stretch to assume that they are SUPPLICATING/REQUESTING help for those on Earth.

Quote: The James verse is to pray for one another. Not to pray to one another.And the effectual fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much. That is saying that as a man who is with god has their prayers to be more likely to be answered by god. Again it is not permitting anything.
It flat out says that Christians should pray for one another because it is effective. Are you suggesting that Mary is not a Christian?

Quote: Mary raised Jesus but she is still a average woman.
Average? Yeah, tons of people gave birth without having sex. That's so ho-hum these days.

Quote: A sinner.
Pure speculation. SHe was a sinner because....you say so?

Quote: And it says nowhere she is anything more.
The angel says that she is "Highly favored". Elizabeth says that she is blessed amongst women. The Bible absolutely says that she is something more than average.

Quote: It instead clearly says that she was saved by her own faith and by the grace of God.
I never suggesting anything different, all I said was that she participated in God's will, and that God chose her special.

Quote: Not from what the verses said.
None of the verses indicate that showing respect is blasphemy. None of them.

Quote: It says nowhere in there that they can hear you. It shows the praise of the saints to God. It describes them in heaven with their prayers to God./ It is not saying that tehy are answering anyone's prayers. You are adding something to the verses that is not there.
It never says that they can not hear you, nor would it make logistical sense to say that they are requesting something while in Heaven UNLESS it were for Earth.

Quote: She hasn't been spared of sin. It says she was a sinner liek everyone else and her grace is not the grace of God's. She was full of the grace of god which is the grace God has given to her and for her. Not to Mary to anyone else. Thus to say otherwise is blasphemy.
Prove it. Where does it say that she was a sinner like everyone else?

Quote: To follow their example yes. To venerate and revere no. No contradiction
Ha, ok, sure. So we can follow their example, but we can't respect them. Got it.

Quote: You're the one who said that it was something that Mary did before is that what saved her.
I never said that what Mary did "saved her". I said that at the moment of the Annunciation, the angel appears to indicate GOD had already saved her. Big difference there.

Quote: It says clearly in the Bible from the verses I mentioned that she was a sinner like everyone else.
What verses show Mary as a sinner?

Quote: He sent them as messengers. Remember the fishers among men stuff? They forgive sins to show a representation as how God forgives sins. There is no clear authority to speak for God. Instead it says that allthough sins are forgiven and that they are messengers they still have no authority to speak for god. That shows the biblical heresy of the Pope.
I feel you are ignoring verses based on personal bias. John very explicitly states that the power to forgive sins was bestowed upon the Apostles. Matthew very clearly states that the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven were given to St. Peter. It fails linguistic consistency to say that even though Jesus EXPLICITLY states that they have the power to forgive sins, that He meant that they were to be messangers.

[Darth Tiberius]

Todd D. wrote: Here's where I get to say "prove it". Show me one verse that says praying to Mary or any of the Saints is forbidden.

Here I repeat myself to show how the bible command you to pray to God.

Peter and the apostles refused to be worshipped (Acts 10:25-26; 14:13-14). The holy angels refuse to be worshipped (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). The response is always the same, "Worship God!"

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." -Isaiah 42:8

Do the Catholics need glasses? It says right there in black and white in Exodus 20:4 that we are NOT to make unto ourselves ANY likeness of anything that is in heaven!!! Mary is in heaven. We are NOT to make any likeness of her according to Exodus 20:4. So what do you call a statue of mother Mary? It surely is a likeness of her, a graven image! Here's another shocker...

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." -Exodus 20:5

Even if your not worshipping Mary, you ARE SINNING if you bow down to her because the Bible strictly forbids it in Exodus 20:5!

John 1