Political Crossfire Forums

Dagger · Joined: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Vancouver BC

This isnt really seirous because i dont belive in it.

But the sterotype is that devil lives in hell and kicks your ass when you go there.

My question is why? Wouldnt the devil be happy that you followed its path.

Ive been thinking of the question for days like where did the rumour that the devil rules hell come from. is it in come context or somethign i missed?

( i was watching little nikki a few weeks ago and hitler was there choosing fruit for torture.. andyways. lol. it just hit me like. wtf. that make sno sense .)

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

Dagger wrote: This isnt really seirous because i dont belive in it.

But the sterotype is that devil lives in hell and kicks your ass when you go there.

My question is why? Wouldnt the devil be happy that you followed its path.

Ive been thinking of the question for days like where did the rumour that the devil rules hell come from. is it in come context or somethign i missed?
Well, I don't think the devil lives in hell, but I do think he takes a measure of satisfaction from every person he turns away from God.

eynon · Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject:

:think: well I think of it this way, in Christian theology demons are spirits and angels that once existed in comunion with G-d, but were cast out of his presence. Now can you imagine being in comunion with the source....I mean think about it, perfect love, perfect light, perfect bliss.......and then, BAM! no-mas......I think it'd drive any sentient being insane.

Anyways if there are demons down there, and they are insane, it all has the potential to be very scary.

Saf · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 377

The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

eynon · Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:18 am Post subject:

Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......

sparsely · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2295 Location: Passamaquoddy

Eynon81 wrote: Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......

things don't align themselves in polarities of evil & good
things exist, and their existance causes reactions in their environment and things it encounters.
the things it encounters may perceive those reactive effects to be negative or positive.
The intent of an action by a being remains an intangibility unless explicitly transmitted to the receptor(s).
Even so, communicating the intent would be a separate action in itself, and subject to the same model.

In other words, actions themselves are not good or evil, and beings are neither good nor evil.
Those are relative concepts used when determining whether the effects of an action is beneficial or harmful, and are invalid outside a beings own personal scope of consciousness.
Evil is what evil says it is, good is what good says it is.

Ol' Jehova apparantly chose to address himself as "I Am", and it seems pretty clear as to why.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9371

Eynon81 wrote: Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......
The idea of a nearly-Omnipotent evil, such as Satan, flies in the face of what Christianity teaches about God.

They teach that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and is never wrong. If that truly is the case, then how could he have allowed renagade Angels (such as Lucifer) to even get to a position of being cast down? And, even if that did happen, why would God allow Lucifer (Satan, the devil, etc) to continue to mess with the "children" God claims to love so much?

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Dagger wrote: This isnt really seirous because i dont belive in it.

But the sterotype is that devil lives in hell and kicks your ass when you go there.

My question is why? Wouldnt the devil be happy that you followed its path.

Ive been thinking of the question for days like where did the rumour that the devil rules hell come from. is it in come context or somethign i missed?

( i was watching little nikki a few weeks ago and hitler was there choosing fruit for torture.. andyways. lol. it just hit me like. wtf. that make sno sense .)

I think the common thought is that the devil is in hell, but I have been taught the bible says the devil is on earth and hell will be his punishment as well as for those who don't accept Christ. The fact that the devil delights in trying to send souls to hell is, again as I was taught in church, something he delights in only to hurt God. Because God loves us so much that when a person goes to hell, it hurts God, so the devil tries to get as many people to go there as possible, to hurt God as much as possible.
At least that is what I have been taught.

Richard Owl Mirror · Joined: 28 May 2006 Posts: 9002

Here is what I can add to your query

THE LUCIFER REBELLION

PROBLEMS OF THE LUCIFER REBELLION

Search the Urantia Book for more entries regarding Satan, Lucifer and Hell/Hades origins.

Quote: The Greeks believed that weak men must have weak souls; so they invented Hades as a fit place for the reception of such anemic souls; these unrobust specimens were also supposed to have shorter shadows.

Quote: When Melchizedek appeared in the flesh, the Egyptians had a religion far above that of the surrounding peoples. They believed that a disembodied soul, if properly armed with magic formulas, could evade the intervening evil spirits and make its way to the judgment hall of Osiris, where, if innocent of "murder, robbery, falsehood, adultery, theft, and selfishness," it would be admitted to the realms of bliss. If this soul were weighed in the balances and found wanting, it would be consigned to hell, to the Devouress. And this was, relatively, an advanced concept of a future life in comparison with the beliefs of many surrounding peoples.
~snip~
The Jewish traditions of heaven and hell and the doctrine of devils as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures, while founded on the lingering traditions of Lucifer and Caligastia, were principally derived from the Zoroastrians during the times when the Jews were under the political and cultural dominance of the Persians. Zoroaster, like the Egyptians, taught the "day of judgment," but he connected this event with the end of the world.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9371

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Here is what I can add to your query

THE LUCIFER REBELLION

PROBLEMS OF THE LUCIFER REBELLION

Search the Urantia Book for more entries regarding Satan, Lucifer and Hell/Hades origins.

Quote: The Greeks believed that weak men must have weak souls; so they invented Hades as a fit place for the reception of such anemic souls; these unrobust specimens were also supposed to have shorter shadows.

Quote: When Melchizedek appeared in the flesh, the Egyptians had a religion far above that of the surrounding peoples. They believed that a disembodied soul, if properly armed with magic formulas, could evade the intervening evil spirits and make its way to the judgment hall of Osiris, where, if innocent of "murder, robbery, falsehood, adultery, theft, and selfishness," it would be admitted to the realms of bliss. If this soul were weighed in the balances and found wanting, it would be consigned to hell, to the Devouress. And this was, relatively, an advanced concept of a future life in comparison with the beliefs of many surrounding peoples.
~snip~
The Jewish traditions of heaven and hell and the doctrine of devils as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures, while founded on the lingering traditions of Lucifer and Caligastia, were principally derived from the Zoroastrians during the times when the Jews were under the political and cultural dominance of the Persians. Zoroaster, like the Egyptians, taught the "day of judgment," but he connected this event with the end of the world.

I have a hard time trusting a source, like the Urantia book, when it claims it "was authored by celestial beings as a special revelation to our planet, Urantia."

Description of the Urantia Book

skel1977 · Joined: 06 Jun 2006 Posts: 46

Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

quoted for the truth

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

UrielsFyre wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......
The idea of a nearly-Omnipotent evil, such as Satan, flies in the face of what Christianity teaches about God.

They teach that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and is never wrong. If that truly is the case, then how could he have allowed renagade Angels (such as Lucifer) to even get to a position of being cast down? And, even if that did happen, why would God allow Lucifer (Satan, the devil, etc) to continue to mess with the "children" God claims to love so much?

The devil is really more of a symbol of the dark side of free will, IMHO, than an actual being. The devil is the part inside all of us that is selfish and wants to harm others.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9371

perdidochas wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......
The idea of a nearly-Omnipotent evil, such as Satan, flies in the face of what Christianity teaches about God.

They teach that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and is never wrong. If that truly is the case, then how could he have allowed renagade Angels (such as Lucifer) to even get to a position of being cast down? And, even if that did happen, why would God allow Lucifer (Satan, the devil, etc) to continue to mess with the "children" God claims to love so much?

The devil is really more of a symbol of the dark side of free will, IMHO, than an actual being. The devil is the part inside all of us that is selfish and wants to harm others. I agree, completely. I don't believe in an actual Satan or hell. To me they are nothing more than symbolic of the darkness lying within every man, woman, and child alive.

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2087

It does not say anywhere in the bible that Satan (or the other fallen angels) torture people in hell. Hell is simply eternal separation from God, after knowing that he truly exists and what the joy of his presence could be, that is torture enough without any of the silly fire and brimstone bits.

(admittedly I am a pagan and don;t believe in hell anyways, but that is the view I have always heard held by the more knowledgable Christians I have conversed with)

_Locke_ · Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 182 Location: Bailey

^^ well I have never read the bible or anything but I thought inthe Book of Revelation, after the Day of the Lord are in the bible (excusse me if I'm wrong) but Quote: those who were condemned to Hell will remain there physically, tormented by eternal fire that will never consume them nor be extinguished.

I thought that was in there...

also -

According to Luke 16:19-28 (Lazarus and Dives) nobody can pass from Hell to Heaven or vice versa, and fire is not the only tormentor, thirst being another, and more that are not described; in this biblical passage it is also mentioned that the souls that are in Hell can see those that are in Heaven and vice versa, but nothing is said of the sight of God; those that are in Hell can see the happiness reigning in Heaven, and those in Heaven do not feel compassion for the others in Hell.

But I think this part (underlined) is torture because the people in hell can see the happieness of Heaven and they can't go there so that is torture.. umm wat it called... teasing the people in Hell

eynon · Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject:

UrielsFyre wrote: perdidochas wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......
The idea of a nearly-Omnipotent evil, such as Satan, flies in the face of what Christianity teaches about God.

They teach that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and is never wrong. If that truly is the case, then how could he have allowed renagade Angels (such as Lucifer) to even get to a position of being cast down? And, even if that did happen, why would God allow Lucifer (Satan, the devil, etc) to continue to mess with the "children" God claims to love so much?

The devil is really more of a symbol of the dark side of free will, IMHO, than an actual being. The devil is the part inside all of us that is selfish and wants to harm others. I agree, completely. I don't believe in an actual Satan or hell. To me they are nothing more than symbolic of the darkness lying within every man, woman, and child alive.

I like that, our personal demons.......

eynon · Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject:

sparsely wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......

things don't align themselves in polarities of evil & good
things exist, and their existance causes reactions in their environment and things it encounters.
the things it encounters may perceive those reactive effects to be negative or positive.
The intent of an action by a being remains an intangibility unless explicitly transmitted to the receptor(s).
Even so, communicating the intent would be a separate action in itself, and subject to the same model.

In other words, actions themselves are not good or evil, and beings are neither good nor evil.
Those are relative concepts used when determining whether the effects of an action is beneficial or harmful, and are invalid outside a beings own personal scope of consciousness.
Evil is what evil says it is, good is what good says it is.

Ol' Jehova apparantly chose to address himself as "I Am", and it seems pretty clear as to why.

my friends and I all ran around in that philosophical circle in high-school, but it leads no-where in life......here I don't what to trivialize what you've said, but, how is the rape and murder of a child not evil?

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

One thing to remember is that the Bible wad supposedly "written" by one source which was "god". We cannot just believe one source. It is like watching only Fox News and not believing anything else. Bad analogy but still effective.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

perdidochas wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Saf wrote: The whole devil mythos, with all its flaws, is nothing but Church dogma nonsense created by men.

I believe in supernatural good, so why not supernatural bad......
The idea of a nearly-Omnipotent evil, such as Satan, flies in the face of what Christianity teaches about God.

They teach that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and is never wrong. If that truly is the case, then how could he have allowed renagade Angels (such as Lucifer) to even get to a position of being cast down? And, even if that did happen, why would God allow Lucifer (Satan, the devil, etc) to continue to mess with the "children" God claims to love so much?

The devil is really more of a symbol of the dark side of free will, IMHO, than an actual being. The devil is the part inside all of us that is selfish and wants to harm others.

Could it not, then, be argued that God is only a symbol of goodness then as well? Not necessarily a being, but a symbol?
Granted God and the devil are exact opposites, in regards to church belief and capabilities, but in the most basic form.

eynon · Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject:

Darth Tiberius wrote: One thing to remember is that the Bible wad supposedly "written" by one source which was "god". We cannot just believe one source. It is like watching only Fox News and not believing anything else. Bad analogy but still effective.

yeah, but diests believe that G-d is THE source......