Political Crossfire Forums

[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:

The SNP voted down a Labour Government and ensured that Mrs Thatcher came to power. I have no problem with that but people should know....

There is no great groundswell of English nationalism. There's concern about the democratic deficit as we've already discussed but it isn't causing heated debates in saloon bars in Sunderland and Slough. When English people had the opportunity to vote for regional assemblies, an English devolution, there wasn't so much a groundswell as a minor ripple of interest.

The Scots Nats have been here before and they've failed to get their independence platform endorsed by their countrymen. By my reading of that poll, fully more than 2/3 of those polled still support parties in favour of the Union. The Scots are voicing their discontent with the Labour Party - just as are the English and the Welsh.

The day when the SNP has a clear mandate for a fully independent nation of Scotland I would expect the government in London to negotiate with the SNP. I would personally be very sad but if that would be the will of the Scots, then so be it. But we're not there, we're not even in the neighbourhood of being there. As I said - we've been here before and nothing has happened.

Something happened Labour in London lied to the Scottish people, are we to believe them again?

Quote: Monday, 30 January 2006

Secret papers show oil cash fears

Official papers which were previously secret have shown how ministers were advised to delay devolution to maintain control of North Sea oil revenues.
The 1970s documents warned that if devolution increased calls for independence, the loss of oil income might leave the UK virtually bankrupt.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4661584.stm

Have you got a problem with that DSwain?

I have.

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[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:

Thank you for the helpful colour coding.

Can you with a straight face compare the United Kingdom with the hugely unpopular political project of a federal Europe? Our 300 year act of Union has performed well and continues to do so. Do you really think that being a supporter of the Union ought to entail de facto support of a European federal state?

As you will have seen from my prior posts about the Union - and the European Union - I say that it is for all of us, the people, to decide. If a majority of Scots opine for separation, then so be it. Likewise, if a majority of Britons plump for being in a European state, then so be it. Unlike Eton, I believe in listening to what people actually want as opposed to what political elites think we deserve.

The EU and the Euro are popular up here DSwain, just like they are in Ireland.

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[Lucky Luke]

mendosan wrote: The Act of union may have been unpopular with the "gangs" of noble men which ruled the scottish parliment when it was passed, but would there have been a Scots enlightenment without it? or would Scotland have remained a semi feudal backwater of Europe?

To the contrary devolution is what Scotland has been waiting for to scrap a feudal system that came from the south:

Quote: Getting rid of the feudal system, whereby land is ultimately owned by the Crown and home owners may have conditions applied to their property by feudal "superiors", has been the first plank of the government's land reform measures.

Around 10% of Scottish landowners still have to pay duties to their superiors and the Scottish Executive has made it a priority to abolish "an outdated and archaic system".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/733941.stm

The land reform act is a great example of what a Scottish Parliament can achieve.

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[angusrae]

I would disagree with you on the point of EU popularity certainly they are viewed with less hostility in Scotland and Wales than in England and I have no problem with the status quo as it applies to Europe and it's relation's with Scotland. But I have serious doubts about further integration however an Independent Scotland would have to put that to it's citizens. However certain EU directives and policies are very unpopular in many areas of Scotland. I personally favor forging greater economic links with Scandinavia and the Baltic states.

[Lucky Luke]

angusrae wrote: I would disagree with you on the point of EU popularity certainly they are viewed with less hostility in Scotland and Wales than in England and I have no problem with the status quo as it applies to Europe and it's relation's with Scotland. But I have serious doubts about further integration however an Independent Scotland would have to put that to it's citizens. However certain EU directives and policies are very unpopular in many areas of Scotland. I personally favor forging greater economic links with Scandinavia and the Baltic states.

What about Ireland Angus? A great example to follow, Norway will join one day.

I would say that the EU and the Euro are as popular in Scotland as in the rest of the Euroland.
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[angusrae]

Having just return from a trip to Norway their attitude to th EU is one of friendly rivalry the Norwegians are split 55% to 45% against membership.
I doubt this will change while the EU has the CFP and supports the Whaling Moratorium

[Lucky Luke]

angusrae wrote: Having just return from a trip to Norway their attitude to th EU is one of friendly rivalry the Norwegians are split 55% to 45% against membership.
I doubt this will change while the EU has the CFP and supports the Whaling Moratorium

I wish we would be in their situation to subsidise our fisheries with our oil revenue.
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[angusrae]

The Oil fund which Norway set up in the Late 70's and or early 80's now funds a host of social and economic projects in Norway. Unlike the successive Westminster governments which have squander Scottish or British (depending on your point of view) oil revenues on Tax breaks for the rich and the voters of Middle England.Even now if our government was forward looking instead of power-hungry then even now an oil fund could bring massive benefits to future generations.

[Robin Hood]

angusrae wrote: The Oil fund which Norway set up in the Late 70's and or early 80's now funds a host of social and economic projects in Norway. Unlike the successive Westminster governments which have squander Scottish or British (depending on your point of view) oil revenues on Tax breaks for the rich and the voters of Middle England.Even now if our government was forward looking instead of power-hungry then even now an oil fund could bring massive benefits to future generations.

Yet more tax money crosses the border into Scotland than oil money the other way around....of course the tax money serves to leave you languishing in soul-stultifying socialism therebye destroying your economy and society. So I guess your complaint is not unfair.

[Lucky Luke]

Robin Hood wrote: angusrae wrote: The Oil fund which Norway set up in the Late 70's and or early 80's now funds a host of social and economic projects in Norway. Unlike the successive Westminster governments which have squander Scottish or British (depending on your point of view) oil revenues on Tax breaks for the rich and the voters of Middle England.Even now if our government was forward looking instead of power-hungry then even now an oil fund could bring massive benefits to future generations.

Yet more tax money crosses the border into Scotland than oil money the other way around....of course the tax money serves to leave you languishing in soul-stultifying socialism therebye destroying your economy and society. So I guess your complaint is not unfair.

You are missing an important point, we are paying taxes too!

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[Robin Hood]

Lucky Luke wrote: Robin Hood wrote: angusrae wrote: The Oil fund which Norway set up in the Late 70's and or early 80's now funds a host of social and economic projects in Norway. Unlike the successive Westminster governments which have squander Scottish or British (depending on your point of view) oil revenues on Tax breaks for the rich and the voters of Middle England.Even now if our government was forward looking instead of power-hungry then even now an oil fund could bring massive benefits to future generations.

Yet more tax money crosses the border into Scotland than oil money the other way around....of course the tax money serves to leave you languishing in soul-stultifying socialism therebye destroying your economy and society. So I guess your complaint is not unfair.

You are missing an important point, we are paying taxes too!

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er...no...read the bit in bold.

[angusrae]

And if the fund had been set up it now would be adding to Britain's or an Independent Scotlands GDP

Norway oil fund near trillion crown mark
Norway's petroleum fund, a government controlled fund investing wealth for future generations, grew by 4.8 percent in the third quarter to NOK 988.1 billion crowns (USD 157.7 billion), the central bank said on Tuesday.

1 US$ = 0.543242069 UK£

The Government Petroleum Fund, invested in foreign stocks and bonds to save money for when Norway's oil and gas resources run out, grew from NOK 942.4 billion at the end of the second quarter.

The return on the fund was 1.4 percent in the third quarter, or 0.02 percent below the reference portfolio, the central bank said.The return on bonds was 3.1 percent and on stocks a negative 1.0 percent, it said.

The fund has billowed since it was established in 1996. The Petroleum Fund of Norway is owned by the people of Norway. Since 1998 the fund has had permission to invest up to 50 percent of its portfolio in the international stock market.

Check out what the rates of exchange are

http://www.laiki.com/web/w3rates.nsf/RatesEng

[Lucky Luke]

Robin Hood wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: Robin Hood wrote: angusrae wrote: The Oil fund which Norway set up in the Late 70's and or early 80's now funds a host of social and economic projects in Norway. Unlike the successive Westminster governments which have squander Scottish or British (depending on your point of view) oil revenues on Tax breaks for the rich and the voters of Middle England.Even now if our government was forward looking instead of power-hungry then even now an oil fund could bring massive benefits to future generations.

Yet more tax money crosses the border into Scotland than oil money the other way around....of course the tax money serves to leave you languishing in soul-stultifying socialism therebye destroying your economy and society. So I guess your complaint is not unfair.

You are missing an important point, we are paying taxes too!

:-D
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er...no...read the bit in bold.

I read it, the tax money coming into Scotland minus the taxes we are sending down south is a hell less of money than the oil money going south!

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[Robin Hood]

Lucky Luke wrote: Robin Hood wrote: Lucky Luke wrote: Robin Hood wrote: angusrae wrote: The Oil fund which Norway set up in the Late 70's and or early 80's now funds a host of social and economic projects in Norway. Unlike the successive Westminster governments which have squander Scottish or British (depending on your point of view) oil revenues on Tax breaks for the rich and the voters of Middle England.Even now if our government was forward looking instead of power-hungry then even now an oil fund could bring massive benefits to future generations.

Yet more tax money crosses the border into Scotland than oil money the other way around....of course the tax money serves to leave you languishing in soul-stultifying socialism therebye destroying your economy and society. So I guess your complaint is not unfair.

You are missing an important point, we are paying taxes too!

:-D
:-D

er...no...read the bit in bold.

I read it, the tax money coming into Scotland minus the taxes we are sending down south is a hell less of money than the oil money going south!

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This is not true, as my debate with you on it, quite a while ago, demonstrated.

[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:

The SNP voted down a Labour Government and ensured that Mrs Thatcher came to power. I have no problem with that but people should know....

There is no great groundswell of English nationalism. There's concern about the democratic deficit as we've already discussed but it isn't causing heated debates in saloon bars in Sunderland and Slough. When English people had the opportunity to vote for regional assemblies, an English devolution, there wasn't so much a groundswell as a minor ripple of interest.

The Scots Nats have been here before and they've failed to get their independence platform endorsed by their countrymen. By my reading of that poll, fully more than 2/3 of those polled still support parties in favour of the Union. The Scots are voicing their discontent with the Labour Party - just as are the English and the Welsh.

The day when the SNP has a clear mandate for a fully independent nation of Scotland I would expect the government in London to negotiate with the SNP. I would personally be very sad but if that would be the will of the Scots, then so be it. But we're not there, we're not even in the neighbourhood of being there. As I said - we've been here before and nothing has happened.

Something happened Labour in London lied to the Scottish people, are we to believe them again?

Quote: Monday, 30 January 2006

Secret papers show oil cash fears

Official papers which were previously secret have shown how ministers were advised to delay devolution to maintain control of North Sea oil revenues.
The 1970s documents warned that if devolution increased calls for independence, the loss of oil income might leave the UK virtually bankrupt.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4661584.stm

Have you got a problem with that DSwain?

I have.

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Read what I said - the SNP has been up the hill before and nothing has come of it. That could be about to change. As you're a late entry on this thread let me just reiterate my point - if Scotland wishes to leave the UK (or Wales or Ulster or even England) I'd be very sorry - but if the people want it then so be it. Show me the evidence, Luke, that a majority wants this.

And guess what - shock horror - governments sometimes don't tell the whole truth to people. You should know just how scummy politicians can be, being a follower of Gorgeous George. The Foreign Office lied to the people about the EEC as well. That's the great thing about the old 30 year rule - you get to see how much we were lied to about different things in the past by different parties.

Maybe that's why the SNP voted down a Labour government that was followed by Mrs Thatcher? That's something for which I'd like to thank the Scots Nats.....

[Lucky Luke]

Robin Hood wrote:

This is not true, as my debate with you on it, quite a while ago, demonstrated.

I recall it demonstrated that this is true Robin. However if you agree with Portillo let Scotland go. Your views have always being a good reason not to have a union.

Quote: There’s nothing new about the notion of the Scots being a burden on the English nation. It’s an old saw. It was deployed by English patriots in the Lords and Commons in 1706 when they were trying to block the progress of the Treaty of Union. The Earl of Nottingham declared that union would destroy “the very constitution of England”. And the then Tory leader Sir Edward Seymour despised the Scots for their backwardness and poverty and warned that: “Whoever married a beggar could expect a louse for her portion.”
http://www.sundayherald.com/56427

You will have to make your mind up Robin either we are a burden and you should be pleased to let us go, either Scotland is not a burden and can prosper on it's own. What is it going to be?
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[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:

Read what I said - the SNP has been up the hill before and nothing has come of it. That could be about to change. As you're a late entry on this thread let me just reiterate my point - if Scotland wishes to leave the UK (or Wales or Ulster or even England) I'd be very sorry - but if the people want it then so be it. Show me the evidence, Luke, that a majority wants this.

And guess what - shock horror - governments sometimes don't tell the whole truth to people. You should know just how scummy politicians can be, being a follower of Gorgeous George. The Foreign Office lied to the people about the EEC as well. That's the great thing about the old 30 year rule - you get to see how much we were lied to about different things in the past by different parties.

Maybe that's why the SNP voted down a Labour government that was followed by Mrs Thatcher? That's something for which I'd like to thank the Scots Nats.....

The SNP could not fight the lie from Labour in the 70's, we know the truth now and I remind you that a majority will not be that difficult to achieve when even the Conservatives are not defending the union anymore.

Wait for the Lib Dems to make the same move next.

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[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:

Read what I said - the SNP has been up the hill before and nothing has come of it. That could be about to change. As you're a late entry on this thread let me just reiterate my point - if Scotland wishes to leave the UK (or Wales or Ulster or even England) I'd be very sorry - but if the people want it then so be it. Show me the evidence, Luke, that a majority wants this.

And guess what - shock horror - governments sometimes don't tell the whole truth to people. You should know just how scummy politicians can be, being a follower of Gorgeous George. The Foreign Office lied to the people about the EEC as well. That's the great thing about the old 30 year rule - you get to see how much we were lied to about different things in the past by different parties.

Maybe that's why the SNP voted down a Labour government that was followed by Mrs Thatcher? That's something for which I'd like to thank the Scots Nats.....

The SNP could not fight the lie from Labour in the 70's, we know the truth now and I remind you that a majority will not be that difficult to achieve when even the Conservatives are not defending the union anymore.

Wait for the Lib Dems to make the same move next.

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Could you show me your source please that states that the Conservative Party's policy now is for the dissolution of the Union? Either a link to a press release or policy wonk, speech from a member of the Shadow Cabinet - something like that; facts, you know.


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KEEP SMILING!!!!!

[Lucky Luke]

DSwain wrote:

Could you show me your source please that states that the Conservative Party's policy now is for the dissolution of the Union? Either a link to a press release or policy wonk, speech from a member of the Shadow Cabinet - something like that; facts, you know.


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KEEP SMILING!!!!!

Portillo is saying what the Conservative party is thinking DSwain, this is the safest way to stop Gordon Brown becoming PM. I understand your disappointment but this will be the policy of Cameron.

Please don't blame me for Cameron not telling us yet what is agenda is, I don't think he knows quite yet how to ditch Scotland but he is making a lot of noises and it is working, Labour are getting scared.

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[DSwain]

Lucky Luke wrote: DSwain wrote:

Could you show me your source please that states that the Conservative Party's policy now is for the dissolution of the Union? Either a link to a press release or policy wonk, speech from a member of the Shadow Cabinet - something like that; facts, you know.


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KEEP SMILING!!!!!

Portillo is saying what the Conservative party is thinking DSwain, this is the safest way to stop Gordon Brown becoming PM. I understand your disappointment but this will be the policy of Cameron.

Please don't blame me for Cameron not telling us yet what is agenda is, I don't think he knows quite yet how to ditch Scotland but he is making a lot of noises and it is working, Labour are getting scared.

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Michael Portillo does not speak for the Conservative Party in ANY capacity. He is not a member of the Shadow Cabinet, policy wonk at CCO, an MP or even a local councillor. He speaks for the Tories in just the same way that I do - as a private citizen. As you haven't been able to source your outlandish claim it has no bearing here.