Political Crossfire Forums

antonio62 · Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject:

DSwain wrote: Two words - Barnett Formula. Talk to an English parent in Northumbria and hear how much less money their local school has compared to the Scots' school over the border.

Using your own point they don't deserve as much they don't pay as much in tax. :wink:

Quote: And you think the UK suffers from a 'one size fits all' economic policy? Well, from your own words Scotland hasn't done that badly. I'll remind you that Scotland now has tax varying powers in Edinburgh.Also, economic development is now a devolved responsibility.

Limited tax varying powers not as much as we need.

Quote: And take a look at economic policy in the Euro zone today, even better try it in a loose confederation of small European states with one currency for 300 million people and one interest rate. THAT'S one size fits all.

Thank you for that. I was a way to bring up how the Eurozone doesn't work to prove my point but you beat me to it.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

antonio62 wrote: DSwain wrote: Two words - Barnett Formula. Talk to an English parent in Northumbria and hear how much less money their local school has compared to the Scots' school over the border.

Using your own point they don't deserve as much they don't pay as much in tax. :wink:

Quote: And you think the UK suffers from a 'one size fits all' economic policy? Well, from your own words Scotland hasn't done that badly. I'll remind you that Scotland now has tax varying powers in Edinburgh.Also, economic development is now a devolved responsibility.

Limited tax varying powers not as much as we need.

Quote: And take a look at economic policy in the Euro zone today, even better try it in a loose confederation of small European states with one currency for 300 million people and one interest rate. THAT'S one size fits all.

Thank you for that. I was a way to bring up how the Eurozone doesn't work to prove my point but you beat me to it.

The English do pay as much in tax! I agree with the Union and am happy to keep Barnett - though I am a northerner by birth (the north of England does poorly from Barnett) and have spent a lot of my life living in London (which does VERY badly from Barnett). But do you, as a Scot, think Barnett is fair?

At least we agree on the absurdity of a single European currency.

antonio62 · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject:

DSwain wrote: The English do pay as much in tax! I agree with the Union and am happy to keep Barnett - though I am a northerner by birth (the north of England does poorly from Barnett) and have spent a lot of my life living in London (which does VERY badly from Barnett). But do you, as a Scot, think Barnett is fair?

At least we agree on the absurdity of a single European currency.

The north of England doesn't pay as much intax. They have a lower GDP per capita and don't have any oil revenues coming in. The only reason England pays more is because the South East is so muhc richer than everywhere else. No I don't think its fair and I also don't see the point in it either considering Scotland is doing better than the other areas such as Walse who need the money more.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject:

I expect things to change rapidly in the next 10-20 year.

Break up.. prehaps.

but the days of the Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland are rapidly coming to a close.

angusrae · Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 973 Location: Falkirk Scotland

In poll today the SNP are ahead of Labour for the first time since the year 2000 The demise of the Disunited Kingdom could be coming.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=959122006

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

angusrae wrote: In poll today the SNP are ahead of Labour for the first time since the year 2000 The demise of the Disunited Kingdom could be coming.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=959122006

The SNP is the party of the false dawn. The 'Tartan Tories' have been up that hill so many times yet have always come back down again:

1973 Govan by-election (SNP win over Labour); the Feb & Oct 1974 General Elections (seven and eleven SNP MP's respectively); Jim Sellars at Govan again in 1988. Yet nothing happened.

The SNP are like the Liberals - they do well when it doesn't really matter. When the Scottish electorate has an opportunity to vote for an independence policy, they fail to. From my reading of this story in The Scotsman, a clear majority of Scots voters still support parties in favour of the Union.

angusrae · Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 973 Location: Falkirk Scotland

DSwain wrote: angusrae wrote: In poll today the SNP are ahead of Labour for the first time since the year 2000 The demise of the Disunited Kingdom could be coming.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=959122006

The SNP is the party of the false dawn. The 'Tartan Tories' have been up that hill so many times yet have always come back down again:

1973 Govan by-election (SNP win over Labour); the Feb & Oct 1974 General Elections (seven and eleven SNP MP's respectively); Jim Sellars at Govan again in 1988. Yet nothing happened.

The SNP are like the Liberals - they do well when it doesn't really matter. When the Scottish electorate has an opportunity to vote for an independence policy, they fail to. From my reading of this story in The Scotsman, a clear majority of Scots voters still support parties in favour of the Union.

DSwain The use of Tartan Tories is a very old Labour trick one which has lost a lot of it's effect with Tony Blair's and New Labour's lurch to the right to steal clothes of Conservative backs in an attempt to hold onto middle England.

However in Scotland Labour are suffering from internal division and some fairly bad press coverage. The rise in English nationalism (which has been fueled by the Right-wing euro skeptic press) is what was required for Scottish Nationalism to make further strides when both sides of a union begin to wish to end the Union it's end is close. However the end of this union will be a long process. One which will could be very acrimonious.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

angusrae wrote: DSwain wrote: angusrae wrote: In poll today the SNP are ahead of Labour for the first time since the year 2000 The demise of the Disunited Kingdom could be coming.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=959122006

The SNP is the party of the false dawn. The 'Tartan Tories' have been up that hill so many times yet have always come back down again:

1973 Govan by-election (SNP win over Labour); the Feb & Oct 1974 General Elections (seven and eleven SNP MP's respectively); Jim Sellars at Govan again in 1988. Yet nothing happened.

The SNP are like the Liberals - they do well when it doesn't really matter. When the Scottish electorate has an opportunity to vote for an independence policy, they fail to. From my reading of this story in The Scotsman, a clear majority of Scots voters still support parties in favour of the Union.

DSwain The use of Tartan Tories is a very old Labour trick one which has lost a lot of it's effect with Tony Blair's and New Labour's lurch to the right to steal clothes of Conservative backs in an attempt to hold onto middle England.

However in Scotland Labour are suffering from internal division and some fairly bad press coverage. The rise in English nationalism (which has been fueled by the Right-wing euro skeptic press) is what was required for Scottish Nationalism to make further strides when both sides of a union begin to wish to end the Union it's end is close. However the end of this union will be a long process. One which will could be very acrimonious.

The SNP voted down a Labour Government and ensured that Mrs Thatcher came to power. I have no problem with that but people should know....

There is no great groundswell of English nationalism. There's concern about the democratic deficit as we've already discussed but it isn't causing heated debates in saloon bars in Sunderland and Slough. When English people had the opportunity to vote for regional assemblies, an English devolution, there wasn't so much a groundswell as a minor ripple of interest.

The Scots Nats have been here before and they've failed to get their independence platform endorsed by their countrymen. By my reading of that poll, fully more than 2/3 of those polled still support parties in favour of the Union. The Scots are voicing their discontent with the Labour Party - just as are the English and the Welsh.

The day when the SNP has a clear mandate for a fully independent nation of Scotland I would expect the government in London to negotiate with the SNP. I would personally be very sad but if that would be the will of the Scots, then so be it. But we're not there, we're not even in the neighbourhood of being there. As I said - we've been here before and nothing has happened.

antonio62 · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:12 am Post subject:

DSwain wrote: angusrae wrote: In poll today the SNP are ahead of Labour for the first time since the year 2000 The demise of the Disunited Kingdom could be coming.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=959122006

The SNP is the party of the false dawn. The 'Tartan Tories' have been up that hill so many times yet have always come back down again:

1973 Govan by-election (SNP win over Labour); the Feb & Oct 1974 General Elections (seven and eleven SNP MP's respectively); Jim Sellars at Govan again in 1988. Yet nothing happened.

The SNP are like the Liberals - they do well when it doesn't really matter. When the Scottish electorate has an opportunity to vote for an independence policy, they fail to. From my reading of this story in The Scotsman, a clear majority of Scots voters still support parties in favour of the Union.

The SNP will win the election next year. There is no doubt about that. Labour could do well to come third in the election. Even the Tories are becoming more liked that's how bad its got for them. The Lib Dems are going to come second. Labour and the Lib Dems only have to loose four seats to loose the election something they will without doubt do. Even labours internal polls say SNP win and the First Minister told the PM that the SNP will defiantly win the next election.

Eton · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:12 am Post subject:

Would any of us care if the UK broke up? Our lives will not suddenly change the morning after. Our voice on the international arena might be lessened - but that is not a bad thing since we seem to relish being America's lackney.

We're all Europeans now, that is the future for us. Especially in a world where China and India are rising and everyone else in in a rush to form regional blocks. We should look to our own kind i.e. sexy Euro-babes.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

antonio62 wrote: DSwain wrote: angusrae wrote: In poll today the SNP are ahead of Labour for the first time since the year 2000 The demise of the Disunited Kingdom could be coming.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=959122006

The SNP is the party of the false dawn. The 'Tartan Tories' have been up that hill so many times yet have always come back down again:

1973 Govan by-election (SNP win over Labour); the Feb & Oct 1974 General Elections (seven and eleven SNP MP's respectively); Jim Sellars at Govan again in 1988. Yet nothing happened.

The SNP are like the Liberals - they do well when it doesn't really matter. When the Scottish electorate has an opportunity to vote for an independence policy, they fail to. From my reading of this story in The Scotsman, a clear majority of Scots voters still support parties in favour of the Union.

The SNP will win the election next year. There is no doubt about that. Labour could do well to come third in the election. Even the Tories are becoming more liked that's how bad its got for them. The Lib Dems are going to come second. Labour and the Lib Dems only have to loose four seats to loose the election something they will without doubt do. Even labours internal polls say SNP win and the First Minister told the PM that the SNP will defiantly win the next election.

I think you may be right and it's quite possible that the SNP will be largest party at Holyrood - but is that a mandate for independence? I would argue that if/when the SNP and other pro-independence parties outpoll pro-Union parties then the Union would be under immense strain and it might be time to call it a day. However this current resurgence of the SNP is everything to do with the growing unpopularity of the Labour Party and nothing to do with a sudden hankering for Scotland to go its own way.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Eton wrote: Would any of us care if the UK broke up? Our lives will not suddenly change the morning after. Our voice on the international arena might be lessened - but that is not a bad thing since we seem to relish being America's lackney.

We're all Europeans now, that is the future for us. Especially in a world where China and India are rising and everyone else in in a rush to form regional blocks. We should look to our own kind i.e. sexy Euro-babes.

And there you have the Eurofederalist agenda at its most brazen - disregard the wishes of the people to decide what sort of a country they wish to live in and to carry on regardless.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:31 am Post subject:

Eton wrote: Would any of us care if the UK broke up? Our lives will not suddenly change the morning after. Our voice on the international arena might be lessened - but that is not a bad thing since we seem to relish being America's lackney.

We're all Europeans now, that is the future for us. Especially in a world where China and India are rising and everyone else in in a rush to form regional blocks. We should look to our own kind i.e. sexy Euro-babes.

Nationalities are the past, and a dangerous one at that, to think of your self as european is no better.

Eton · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:35 am Post subject:

I'm not saying that we should force the break up of the UK, but if and when it happens it won't change your life one iota, you know this.

There is a trend now for countries to become looser even fracture - look at Catalonia/Basque/Andalucia in Spain, Bavaria/Saxony in Germany, Corsica/Brittany in France etc etc. Coupled with this is the trend to form regional blocks.

We are living in an increasingly dangerous world and I for one would prefer to be standing with the Europeans than on our own.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Eton wrote: I'm not saying that we should force the break up of the UK, but if and when it happens it won't change your life one iota, you know this.

There is a trend now for countries to become looser even fracture - look at Catalonia/Basque/Andalucia in Spain, Bavaria/Saxony in Germany, Corsica/Brittany in France etc etc. Coupled with this is the trend to form regional blocks.

We are living in an increasingly dangerous world and I for one would prefer to be standing with the Europeans than on our own.

I believe we do benefit from the Union. The whole country benefits from the massive earnings of the financial services sector in the City of London. Likewise, we all benefit from the great and historic working ethic and inventiveness of the Scots and the Welsh. However, if any of the nations of the UK one day decided to secede then I would wish them good luck. I would be sorry to see the UK split but if the people wish it to change, then so be it.

The trend is to form regional trading blocks, not regional political unions. The history of artificial and top-down imposed political union is an unhappy one, the most recent examples being those of Yugoslavia and the USSR.

I assume, Eton, that you do believe that the people should decide on whether we have ever increasing political union in Europe?

Eton · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject:

DSwain wrote: I assume, Eton, that you do believe that the people should decide on whether we have ever increasing political union in Europe?

It depends on which people we're talking about.

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Eton wrote: DSwain wrote: I assume, Eton, that you do believe that the people should decide on whether we have ever increasing political union in Europe?

It depends on which people we're talking about.

Some people are more equal than others, eh? The people - the electorate - those folks we see in the morning on the tube or on the bus -those with whom we have a drink or a meal; our friends, our families. The marjority of whom do not want European political union. The same people that Eurofederalists ignore; vote against the European project in a referendum? No problem - we'll just keep holding the referendum until you agree with us.

Eton · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject:

A medical student, though informed, is clearly not qualified to perform a triple-heart bypass on a person. Likewise, most of our people are spoon fed information from the euro-phobic right wing press like the Sun and the Daily 'Hate' Mail. I'm all for them making a decision, just as soon as they are properly informed of the facts and not led astray by emotional and xenophobic rants by those unsavoury people in the tabloid press/Conservative party/UKiP/BNP.

What are your objections to a united europe?

DSwain · Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 3552

Eton wrote: A medical student, though informed, is clearly not qualified to perform a triple-heart bypass on a person. Likewise, most of our people are spoon fed information from the euro-phobic right wing press like the Sun and the Daily 'Hate' Mail. I'm all for them making a decision, just as soon as they are properly informed of the facts and not led astray by emotional and xenophobic rants by those unsavoury people in the tabloid press/Conservative party/UKiP/BNP.

What are your objections to a united europe?

Interesting take on a participative democracy; I presume by your definition therefore only those of whom agree with a federal Europe are sufficiently 'informed' to be granted the opportunity to voice an opinion?

I've already posted on why I'm against a federal Europe - but here are a few thoughts.

I am in favour of a Europe unified purely as a trade entity; a Europe with the free flow of goods with no tariffs. I am not in favour of a political union.
1) There is no appetite for political union. This is absolutely crucial. Without popular support any union is an artificial imposition; artificial states rarely fare well and at worst result in civil war.
2) I do not accept the concept of 'shared sovereignty' over 'lost sovereignty'. I do not accept that for the UK to lose sovereignty over its own policies is somehow offset by our gaining some say in how Greece or Germany are run.
3) Pragmatism. The nation state still works. National governments are accountable to their electorates in a way that no United States of Europe could be. If some nations wish to try expanded devolution, then good luck to them. But it's their choice. Let's not impose Brussels solutions onto people.
4) Europe is not America. We are a continent of many different languages and cultures. A substantial part of our shared history is one of conflict. In any federal Europe the pressures for local politicians to play the old rivalry cards would be immense - as happened in federal Yugoslavia.
5) A principle reason for a united Europe was the threat from the USSR with the EEC/EU being the economic pillar beside the WEU/NATO. What is the imperative now for political union? Regional trading blocks are the way of the future - not political unions.

Eton · Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject:

The history of Britain is one of conflict as well. In anycase, so what? It's in the past! We want to do away with that sort of thing and work together not against each other.

Since when has multiple languages been a barrier for a state to exist. Belgium has three languages, Switzland has four, the Netherlands has three (not including English), Spain has at least three, the UK has three official languages not including Urdu/Polish etc spoken by large minorrity groups. As long as we can all communicate in one of the three working languages we can afford to have a million languages making up Europe.

I would also say that it is impossible to divorce politics from economics. It is the Green agenda in Europe that has dictated the EU's reluctance to embrace Genetically enhanced foods from America = Trade and politics linked.

It may also interest you to know that the idea of a united europe is far older than the concept of the nation state - which has been a miserable failure in terms of lives lost in defence of it.