Political Crossfire Forums

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

Why do animals exist? What does G-d need of them?


Do animals worship God?
They serve Him.

Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

What do animals have to do with angels?

Do you think men are superior to angels?

I a way, yes we are.
Angels are on a high spiritual level, but we have the ability to overtake them. Although I think that only Moshe did that.

Hey John, did Jesus die for the sins if the fallen angels too, or are they just screwed?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

Perhaps the purpose of men is to teach the angels what Grace is.

If you think that we, as people on Earth, know more about G-d, than an angel who is in His presence, then you are delusional.

[Mailech]

John wrote: I would assume God would want our example to be genuine.

Are the angels truly worshiping God...or are they pre-programmed to do so without any free will?

That is a good point John, what allows us to have free will?

It is that G-d's presence is not totally apparent in this world, and G-d gave us competeing forces to deal with.

John, how could you look in the face of the ultimate truth and deny that it is the truth, If you could do that, then that truth must not be the ultiamte truth, how can an agel have free will when constantly faced with the ultimate Truth?

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

Perhaps the purpose of men is to teach the angels what Grace is.

If you think that we, as people on Earth, know more about G-d, than an angel who is in His presence, then you are delusional.

That's not my point. It isn't about us knowing anything....it's about the angels seeing God show us true Grace.

I'm sure it amazes them and causes them to worship the Lord even more than they already do.

Of thier own free will.

[Nathyn]

John wrote: Quote: The Bible makes it clear that both faith and works are necessary for salvation.

Not at all. The Bible is clear that someone who truly believes will act like someone who truly believes. It's a simple as that.
That's what I said. Did you read it? My point is, if you don't act that way, you have to start questioning your faith.

Also, when you say "what we believe," I already clarified that not all denominations agree with salvation-by-grace.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

Why do animals exist? What does G-d need of them?


Do animals worship God?
They serve Him.

Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

What do animals have to do with angels?

Do you think men are superior to angels?

I a way, yes we are.
Angels are on a high spiritual level, but we have the ability to overtake them. Although I think that only Moshe did that.

Hey John, did Jesus die for the sins if the fallen angels too, or are they just screwed?

God became a man and gave Himself for the sins of men. We're not given the plan of Salvation for angels...if there is any, that would be between them and God.

[John]

Nathyn wrote: John wrote: Quote: The Bible makes it clear that both faith and works are necessary for salvation.

Not at all. The Bible is clear that someone who truly believes will act like someone who truly believes. It's a simple as that.
That's what I said. Did you read it? My point is, if you don't act that way, you have to start questioning your faith.

Also, when you say "what we believe," I already clarified that not all denominations agree with salvation-by-grace.

The thing you don't understand (because it hasn't happened to you)....is that when a person truly accepts what Messiah (Jesus) did and what that really means, something literally changes inside of them. The person becomes someone new...and believing isn't something that they have to work on...they just do. It has become part of who they are.

So when the Bible says that faith without works is dead...it's saying that if "works" are not evident in you...then that change inside of you that needs to happen in order to be saved hasn't really happened..and that you're just fooling yourself.

Of course there are "denominations" that have incorrect doctrine. that doesn't change what Christianity really is.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: I would assume God would want our example to be genuine.

Are the angels truly worshiping God...or are they pre-programmed to do so without any free will?

That is a good point John, what allows us to have free will?

It is that G-d's presence is not totally apparent in this world, and G-d gave us competeing forces to deal with.

John, how could you look in the face of the ultimate truth and deny that it is the truth, If you could do that, then that truth must not be the ultiamte truth, how can an agel have free will when constantly faced with the ultimate Truth?

Haven't you ever explained something to someone that is a basic truth and they just don't get it?

I don't know exactly how it happened...but somehow sin entered reality. Some believe that it started with pride found in Satan, but that's not important....what is important is that sin entered reality somehow. This thing we call sin causes everything it infects to not be able to function correctly. So when faced with the Ultimate truth...the sin causes the person or angel to see what it's really there. It's to be insane so to speak.


Insane beings have a problem with truth.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: I would assume God would want our example to be genuine.

Are the angels truly worshiping God...or are they pre-programmed to do so without any free will?

That is a good point John, what allows us to have free will?

It is that G-d's presence is not totally apparent in this world, and G-d gave us competeing forces to deal with.

John, how could you look in the face of the ultimate truth and deny that it is the truth, If you could do that, then that truth must not be the ultiamte truth, how can an agel have free will when constantly faced with the ultimate Truth?

Haven't you ever explained something to someone that is a basic truth and they just don't get it?

I don't know exactly how it happened...but somehow sin entered reality. Some believe that it started with pride found in Satan, but that's not important....what is important is that sin entered reality somehow. This thing we call sin causes everything it infects to not be able to function correctly. So when faced with the Ultimate truth...the sin causes the person or angel to see what it's really there. It's to be insane so to speak.


Insane beings have a problem with truth.

John you know that 1+1=2 right, that is an elementary truth of our mathematical system. There are very few people in the world who would argue against you that 1+1 != 2.
Now the truth of G-d is infinately more obvious than 1+1=2, when you are in His presence. You comparing trying to explain something you someone, to the ulitmate truth of G-d, is laughable and insulting to my intelligence and to G-d's power. A statement that you just made should be followed by 'lehavdil eleph alphei havdalot urevavei revavot'. Just like a person cannot stare at the sun and say it is dark, a person cannot be in G-d's presence and not know the truth and be above all pride and sin.

[John]

Quote: John you know that 1+1=2 right, that is an elementary truth of our mathematical system. There are very few people in the world who would argue against you that 1+1 != 2.

Crazy people do. And that's the point.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: John you know that 1+1=2 right, that is an elementary truth of our mathematical system. There are very few people in the world who would argue against you that 1+1 != 2.

Crazy people do. And that's the point.

But crazy people are not cuplable for their actions, so are you saying that Satan should be locked up and since he is insane, should not be punished?

[John]

Quote: Just like a person cannot stare at the sun and say it is dark

A blind person can. In fact....he will swear that the truth is that it is dark.

Blind insane people will deny that 1+1=2 in the dark....

That's like what sin causes people to do.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: John you know that 1+1=2 right, that is an elementary truth of our mathematical system. There are very few people in the world who would argue against you that 1+1 != 2.

Crazy people do. And that's the point.

But crazy people are not cuplable for their actions, so are you saying that Satan should be locked up and since he is insane, should not be punished?

I believe Hell is more of a confinement than a punishment.

An insane person who is running around causing havac can not be allowed to run free, just because he is insane.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: Just like a person cannot stare at the sun and say it is dark

A blind person can. In fact....he will swear that the truth is that it is dark.

Blind insane people will deny that 1+1=2 in the dark....

That's like what sin causes people to do.
Again you are missing the point. If you are blind, then you are not staring into the sun, so when you say you are in the dark you are telling the truth. Again to continue this to Satan, if Satan where "blind" to G-d, then how could he be culpable since for all he knows he is doing right. But the truth is that nothing is blind to G-d. You are in effect saying that one of G-d's creations, pride and sin, has the power to hide G-d. So G-d's creation has power over G-d, ggod one John.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: John you know that 1+1=2 right, that is an elementary truth of our mathematical system. There are very few people in the world who would argue against you that 1+1 != 2.

Crazy people do. And that's the point.

But crazy people are not cuplable for their actions, so are you saying that Satan should be locked up and since he is insane, should not be punished?

I believe Hell is more of a confinement than a punishment.

An insane person who is running around causing havac can not be allowed to run free, just because he is insane.
If it is just a confinement, then why is it so painful? Why the burning fires of hell?

[John]

Quote: Again you are missing the point. If you are blind, then you are not staring into the sun, so when you say you are in the dark you are telling the truth.


Being blind doesn't change the reality of the sun shining in your face. It wouldn't be the truth so say that you're in tha dark...you just can't see the light. Truth isn't relative.

[John]

Quote: . But the truth is that nothing is blind to G-d. You are in effect saying that one of G-d's creations, pride and sin, has the power to hide G-d.

Huh? Being blind and not seeing God doen't mean that God isn't there.

....the point is God's love...that's what people are blind to and don't recieve or understand.


God proved that sin has no power over Him by dieing and raising Himself from the dead. He causes the lame to walk and the blind to see.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: John you know that 1+1=2 right, that is an elementary truth of our mathematical system. There are very few people in the world who would argue against you that 1+1 != 2.

Crazy people do. And that's the point.

But crazy people are not cuplable for their actions, so are you saying that Satan should be locked up and since he is insane, should not be punished?

I believe Hell is more of a confinement than a punishment.

An insane person who is running around causing havac can not be allowed to run free, just because he is insane.
If it is just a confinement, then why is it so painful? Why the burning fires of hell?

I dunno. It seems to be a way of describing what separation from God for all eternity will be like in a way we can kinda comprehend.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: . But the truth is that nothing is blind to G-d. You are in effect saying that one of G-d's creations, pride and sin, has the power to hide G-d.

Huh? Being blind and not seeing God doen't mean that God isn't there.

....the point is God's love...that's what people are blind to and don't recieve or understand.


God proved that sin has no power over Him by dieing and raising Himself from the dead. He causes the lame to walk and the blind to see.

How could you even fathom to think that G-d could possibly sin, to think that is to think that G-d is possibly imperfect.
John, was there a possibility that Jesus would have failed the test in the dessert? if yes, what would have happened had he failed?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: If it is just a confinement, then why is it so painful? Why the burning fires of hell?

I dunno. It seems to be a way of describing what separation from God for all eternity will be like in a way we can kinda comprehend.

The absence of pleasure is not pain, pain is a direct action.