Political Crossfire Forums

[Nathyn]

Mailech wrote: Do pick up a decent point in a rather stupid thread that was locked.

JayDubya wrote: This entire topic is pretty strange. I'm not religious, just interested in Judeochristrian beliefs / associated mythology.

First of all, this is nearly Jew-trolling on some level ("you see, you guys are in league with the devil!"), intentional or not, and obviously similarities between different religious symbols doesn't undermine an entire people / religion.

Secondarily, much of what a Christian knows of Satan / Lucifer in the first place is medieval dogma or from John Milton's Paradise Lost. It's my understanding that Jews view Satan quite differently, and as well they should, the Torah, for obvious reasons, doesn't exactly have a copy of the Christian book of Revelations. So all that stuff about him being an evil fallen angel that started a war in Heaven... that obviously isn't in what Christians call the OT, so they obviously wouldn't believe it.

Is this accurate?

This is true. The word Satan is used a few times in the Tanach. In all of them it is doing things that man does not like. But the only interaction between Satan and G-d is in Job, and that one is a relationship of obediance. The idea of Satan rebelling against G-d is laughable, since how can anything that is in the presence of the ultimate truth, then go and deny it. That is why the afterlife in Judaism is also known as the Olam HaEmet or the World of Truth.

There are many references to Satan in the Talmud for example, but in none that I am aware of is he ever described as rebelling against G-d.
I'm an Atheist, but I will make the point that there's actually no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that Jewish theology is more coherent than Christian theology.

Jewish theology has its own flaws, but they aren't as gaping wide as in Christian theology, such as the idea that Satan can "rebel," against an omnipotent God, that the Messianic prophecies are supposed to be fulfilled 2,000 years apart, or that the brutal slaughter of an apostate somehow absolves humanity of all moral responsibility.

[John]

Man!!!...doesn’t defending Satan and claiming that Satan is really just another side of God raise an eye brow?

It's a trip to hear modern day Jews talk about Satan.

I mean...you read the New Testament that was written by Jews of the 1st century and they had a completely different understanding of Satan, the devil or what ever name you wanna call him.

[Nathyn]

John wrote: Man!!!...doesn’t defending Satan and claiming that Satan is really just another side of God raise an eye brow?
No, because first of all, God cannot be overruled. The idea of Satan "rebelling," against God or engaging in a war against God is ludicrous, in that God could merely end it within a single moment. Therefore, any actions made by Satan must be in accordance with the will of God. If they weren't, God wouldn't allow them.

Secondly, in the Old Testament, Satan meets with God on several occasions. In terms of Jewish theology, Satan's role in our lives is best reflected in the Book of Job. Satan goes to God and says, "Hey, I'm going to go screw with this guy to see if I can get him to lose faith in you!!"

God says, "OK."

Then, Satan goes off and tries to tempt Job.

The actual role of Satan is similar, in that he is that which tempts us to defy God, "the adversary." What's different is the claim that his actions aren't in accordance with God's will, that God can somehow lose the divine war, and that Satan is a demon king or a "fallen angel," rather than still merely being an angel serving God.

The simplest way to view the Jewish view of Satan is that, when we are alive, we have good angels tempting us to do good and other angels tempting us to do evil (Satan). After we die, in a sort of divine court, God judges us, good angels are our lawyers, and Satan is the prosecutor.

Satan might also not be considered an actual "individual," anymore than God is an "individual." But rather, God in the common understand of the word is goodness and truth itself and Satan is evil and falsehood itself. But the true nature of God is all things everywhere, all the time -- good and evil, truth and falsehood. To simply define God solely in terms of the good and truthful is to limit what cannot be limited.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Man!!!...doesn’t defending Satan and claiming that Satan is really just another side of God raise an eye brow?

Yes. The idea of an unseen but all-powerful G-d also raises an eyebrow, maybe both eyebrows. So? We were created with eyebrows for a purpose, and perhaps that purposes was to have them raised every now and then.

Quote: It's a trip to hear modern day Jews talk about Satan.

I mean...you read the New Testament that was written by Jews of the 1st century and they had a completely different understanding of Satan, the devil or what ever name you wanna call him.

I think that an overwhelming majority of Jews of the 1st century would get quite a trip hearing New Testament authors talk about anything. Which is the reason why the Jewish people overwhelmingly rejected the ideas embodied in NT that became Christianity.

This is not an issue of modern Jewish thought versus traditional Jewish thought as embodied by the NT writers, who just happened to be Jewish. Karl Marx also happened to be Jewish, but that doesn't make him an authority on anything.

[John]

Quote: No, because first of all, God cannot be overruled. The idea of Satan "rebelling," against God or engaging in a war against God is ludicrous, in that God could merely end it within a single moment.

Yet you and I have the power to rebel against God...and Satan doesn't.

The idea that angels do not have free will seems contradictory to angels being able to worship. There is no worship without freewill.

God CAN merely end it within a single moment....but it (rebellion) would happen again. Maybe...just maybe...this whole deal is God making a point and putting a end to it "in a single moment"....our moments are not the sames as God's single moments. Putting an end to rebellion in a way that would cause His creations to NOT rebel of thier own free will.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: No, because first of all, God cannot be overruled. The idea of Satan "rebelling," against God or engaging in a war against God is ludicrous, in that God could merely end it within a single moment.

Yet you and I have the power to rebel against God...and Satan doesn't.

So? A dog can sense a lot of things by smell that I can't. Animals can sense earthquakes and other disasters before they occur. Whales can communicate over very long distances.

Animals have the power to do many things that I don't have the power to do.

I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.

Quote: The idea that angels do not have free will seems contradictory to angels being able to worship. There is no worship without freewill.

I kinda didn't read this thread, so if you discussed this already, forgive me. But, first and foremost, how do you define "worship?" That's before we get to the Hebrew terminology.

Quote: God CAN merely end it within a single moment....but it (rebellion) would happen again. Maybe...just maybe...this whole deal is God making a point and putting a end to it "in a single moment"....our moments are not the sames as God's single moments. Putting an end to rebellion in a way that would cause His creations to NOT rebel of thier own free will.

Maybe. Maybe not. Nobody knows.

[John]

Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

[John]

Quote: I kinda didn't read this thread, so if you discussed this already, forgive me. But, first and foremost, how do you define "worship?"

Reverent love and devotion. Both require freewill.

You can play around with words all day long...but we BOTH know that there is no worship without freewill. A pre-programmed worshiping robot would be pointless.

[Nathyn]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Man!!!...doesn’t defending Satan and claiming that Satan is really just another side of God raise an eye brow?

Yes. The idea of an unseen but all-powerful G-d also raises an eyebrow, maybe both eyebrows. So? We were created with eyebrows for a purpose, and perhaps that purposes was to have them raised every now and then.

Quote: It's a trip to hear modern day Jews talk about Satan.

I mean...you read the New Testament that was written by Jews of the 1st century and they had a completely different understanding of Satan, the devil or what ever name you wanna call him.

I think that an overwhelming majority of Jews of the 1st century would get quite a trip hearing New Testament authors talk about anything. Which is the reason why the Jewish people overwhelmingly rejected the ideas embodied in NT that became Christianity.

This is not an issue of modern Jewish thought versus traditional Jewish thought as embodied by the NT writers, who just happened to be Jewish. Karl Marx also happened to be Jewish, but that doesn't make him an authority on anything.
Hold on -- some Jews have asserted to me that a person can "lose their Jewhood," through extreme and total disregard for God's commandments. So, they'll say that Jesus wasn't a Jew; he was an apostate.

On the basis, Karl Marx was an Atheist who opposed religion. So, was he still a Jew?

John wrote: Quote: No, because first of all, God cannot be overruled. The idea of Satan "rebelling," against God or engaging in a war against God is ludicrous, in that God could merely end it within a single moment.

Yet you and I have the power to rebel against God...and Satan doesn't.

The idea that angels do not have free will seems contradictory to angels being able to worship. There is no worship without freewill.

God CAN merely end it within a single moment....but it (rebellion) would happen again. Maybe...just maybe...this whole deal is God making a point and putting a end to it "in a single moment"....our moments are not the sames as God's single moments. Putting an end to rebellion in a way that would cause His creations to NOT rebel of thier own free will.
But God is omniscient, so he would know if we would rebel before-the-fact and if he wanted to stop us from rebelling, he'd stop us before we even DECIDED to rebel.

Furthermore, you can't have free will when you have the threat of eternal damnation hanging over your head. That's coercision. The Christian God says we should be moral, not because it's the right thing to do irrespective of any reward, but through the threat of enormous physical harm. What kind of moral philosophy is THAT?!

"Following these rules or you'll burn in hell."

Come on. Christian moral philosophy can be described in a simple metaphor:



What kind of justice is that? It isn't really morality if you're threatened with eternal damnation. You merely react out of a survival instinct, out of fear. A person who is saved doesn't necessarily truly care or truly believe in God. They just want to go to heaven and don't want to go to hell.

The psychologist, Lawrence Kohlberg, once modeled human moral development in a series of six stages. The first begins with a regard for morality simply out of regard for one's own interest. The last is a regard for morality out of transcendental principles, even if it's harmful to oneself.

In that respect, Christian moral philosophy is extremely primitive.

John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?
Angels don't technically exist in the literal sense of being people with wings flying around, the same way that God isn't corporeal. Angels (including Satan) are simply aspects of God. The nature of God and his relationship to angels is a particularly complicated issue, discussed within Kabbalah. But some reject Kabballah and such discussions on the nature of God are usually avoided by Jews because descriptions of God limit him, yet he's limitless.

I once heard a Rabbi remark that some say God is infinite. However, what is infinite? Mathematically, you can take the number one and divide it into an infinite number of pieces. Is God merely that small -- merely being infinite within a particular framework? No. God is eternal, infinitely beyond infinite.

One major distinction between Judaism and Christianity is that Jews don't claim to know the nature of God and see such questions as irrelevant and pointless.

So, your questions, "Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?" aren't really all that important. What's important, for Jews, is following the moral law, not questioning the vastly eternal, which no human being could ever possibly understand.

[John]

Quote: Furthermore, you can't have free will when you have the threat of eternal damnation hanging over your head.

Hell isn't a threat...it's the the effect of rejecting God. It isn't possible to NOT be in Hell if God isn't maintaining you. So Hell isn't a threat...it's just a warning.

It's like saying that splatting on the ground is a threat for not stepping over a cliff.

Quote:


You seem to be confused about what Christians believe. We are saved by Grace...it isn't how well I can practice Christianity that determine my Salvation. I've been born again...changed into a new type of creature. I couldn't go to Hell if I tried. I'm saved...done deal. My Salvation is based off of what God did and promised…not on my abilities. I am nothing..and He is everything.

Read this to be a little better informed.....

[Nathyn]

John wrote: Quote: Furthermore, you can't have free will when you have the threat of eternal damnation hanging over your head.

Hell isn't a threat...it's the the effect of rejecting God. It isn't possible to NOT be in Hell if God isn't maintaining you. So Hell isn't a threat...it's just a warning.

It's like saying that splatting on the ground is a threat for not stepping over a cliff.
Who created that effect? Does God approve of it? If not, why does he allow for it to occur?

John wrote: Quote:


You seem to be confused about what Christians believe. We are saved by Grace...it isn't how well I can practice Christianity that determine my Salvation. I've been born again...changed into a new type of creature. I couldn't go to Hell if I tried. I'm saved...done deal. My Salvation is based off of what God did and promised…not on my abilities. I am nothing..and He is everything.

Read this to be a little better informed.....
The Bible makes it clear that both faith and works are necessary for salvation. At times it says good works aren't important, that our works are "like filthy rags" and we can only be saved by faith. (Isaiah 64:6) Jesus says we just need to have faith in him (John 6:28). Ephesian 2:9-10 specifically mentions that we're saved by grace, not works. Romans 3:27-28 and 2 Timothy 1:8-9 also say we aren't saved by works, but faith.

Other times, Christ and the Bible said works were either good, beneficial, or even essential. He said that even a non-Christian who gives charity to Christians "won't lose their reward" (Matthew 10:42, Mark 9:41). He said to let Christians' good works shine before men. (Matthew 5:16) And Jesus said it's harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy person to be saved. (Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25)

James 2:14-26 says:
Quote: What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab R100 the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

So, there's a contradiction. As a result, some denominations favor salvation by grace, while others require works.

I think the contradiction is best rationalized in that faith implies good works. Jesus specifically said:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father." (John 14:12)

James repeated that idea in the book of James. You can't be saved by good deeds alone, but you need to have faith. But faith implies good works. If aren't doing good deeds for others, you can't claim to have any kind of faith.

This idea of suddenly just saying, "I BELIEVE IN JESUS!" and being "born-again," so that you can all of a sudden just develop a total apathy towards poverty in Africa and elsewhere is a modern phenomenon, having no root in the Bible. It's just a cop-out, a cheap excuse for people to dodge the responsibility laid out in the New Testament. It helps the American middle-class sleep contentedly at night, believing they hold no moral responsibility for the tremendous suffering elsewhere in the world and within their own country, and also offers a basis for laissez-faire capitalism.

Hence, the "treadmill" metaphor still applies. You have a demon king on your back all the time, constantly trying to get you to lose your faith. And if that happens, no second chances, it's straight to hell, forever.

If we always have free will, don't tell me that a person's choice to believe in Christ is "eternal." You could choose whatever you want. Being "saved," doesn't eliminate your free will. There are born-again Christians who have still left the religion. Now, you can say they weren't true born-agains, but at the time, they believed they were. So, far all you know, you aren't a true born again, either.

[Duchifas]

Nathyn wrote: Hold on -- some Jews have asserted to me that a person can "lose their Jewhood," through extreme and total disregard for God's commandments. So, they'll say that Jesus wasn't a Jew; he was an apostate.

They are wrong, as far as I know.

A Jew who is guilty of extreme and blatant disregard can be ostrasized, excommunicated from the community, etc. But as long as he was born of a Jewish mother, he remains a Jew, with all the obligations that entails.

Quote: On the basis, Karl Marx was an Atheist who opposed religion. So, was he still a Jew?

Yeah. One of the sadder cases.

[Duchifas]

John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

Why do animals exist? What does G-d need of them?

[John]

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

Why do animals exist? What does G-d need of them?


Do animals worship God?

[Mailech]

Duchifas wrote: Nathyn wrote: Hold on -- some Jews have asserted to me that a person can "lose their Jewhood," through extreme and total disregard for God's commandments. So, they'll say that Jesus wasn't a Jew; he was an apostate.

They are wrong, as far as I know.

A Jew who is guilty of extreme and blatant disregard can be ostrasized, excommunicated from the community, etc. But as long as he was born of a Jewish mother, he remains a Jew, with all the obligations that entails.

Quote: On the basis, Karl Marx was an Atheist who opposed religion. So, was he still a Jew?

Yeah. One of the sadder cases.

well yes and no, a real wicked person, and see the Rambam Hilchot Teshuva for the definition, is no longer considered in the camp of Achecha, your brother, and in some cases it is a mitzvah to hate them, and ostrasize them. On the other hand if htey do teshuva they don't need a reconvresion or anything.

As for Karl Marx, as well as you Nathyn, since you are an atheist, in this day and age, since there is no person who can give real rebuke, all those who go off the path are considered to be Tinokei Shenishba, basically, people who don't know any better. In that case they are still in the category or 'your brother'.
But there are still some limiting factors. And you would have to excuse me Nathyn, if I didn't eat in your home.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

Why do animals exist? What does G-d need of them?


Do animals worship God?
They serve Him.

Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

[John]

Quote: The Bible makes it clear that both faith and works are necessary for salvation.

Not at all. The Bible is clear that someone who truly believes will act like someone who truly believes. It's a simple as that.

You have a gross misunderstanding of what Christianity is.

Christianity is THIS.

Jeremiah 31
31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."




Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself (H)bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

Why do animals exist? What does G-d need of them?


Do animals worship God?
They serve Him.

Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

What do animals have to do with angels?

Do you think men are superior to angels?

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't understand why a similar situation with respect to humans and angels is causing you trouble. Yes, we have free will, and angels don't.


Then, why do angels exist? Does God need angels to do things for Him? Can't He just will it into being?

Why do animals exist? What does G-d need of them?


Do animals worship God?
They serve Him.

Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

I would assume God would want our example to be genuine.

Are the angels truly worshiping God...or are they pre-programmed to do so without any free will?

[John]

Quote: Perhaps the purpose of angels praising G-d, is to teach men how to do it.

Perhaps the purpose of men is to teach the angels what Grace is.