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[Mailech]

Do pick up a decent point in a rather stupid thread that was locked.

JayDubya wrote: This entire topic is pretty strange. I'm not religious, just interested in Judeochristrian beliefs / associated mythology.

First of all, this is nearly Jew-trolling on some level ("you see, you guys are in league with the devil!"), intentional or not, and obviously similarities between different religious symbols doesn't undermine an entire people / religion.

Secondarily, much of what a Christian knows of Satan / Lucifer in the first place is medieval dogma or from John Milton's Paradise Lost. It's my understanding that Jews view Satan quite differently, and as well they should, the Torah, for obvious reasons, doesn't exactly have a copy of the Christian book of Revelations. So all that stuff about him being an evil fallen angel that started a war in Heaven... that obviously isn't in what Christians call the OT, so they obviously wouldn't believe it.

Is this accurate?

This is true. The word Satan is used a few times in the Tanach. In all of them it is doing things that man does not like. But the only interaction between Satan and G-d is in Job, and that one is a relationship of obediance. The idea of Satan rebelling against G-d is laughable, since how can anything that is in the presence of the ultimate truth, then go and deny it. That is why the afterlife in Judaism is also known as the Olam HaEmet or the World of Truth.

There are many references to Satan in the Talmud for example, but in none that I am aware of is he ever described as rebelling against G-d.

[Mailech]

And as for your post cap'n

cap'n queasy wrote: No.

These passages are from the Tanahk, which is the Old Testament, and describe Satan as a fallen angel.

The Torah is the first five books of the Tanahk. Christians generally call this the Pentatuech.
Isaiah 14:12-22 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Now this is an intersting passage refering to some guy named Lucifer, who is this Lucifer, I don't know. Hmm, but look at the last line, Quote: For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. So it seems that this Lucifer is related to Babylon, and in fact Jewish tradition says that Lucifer is Nevuchadnetzar the King of Babylon, and not Satan.
Quote: Ezekiel 28:12-19 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Again to whom is this refering? It looks to me that it is the King of Tyre, I can't really see how this refers to the Satan, since Satan is not mentioned.

Quote: The story of the serpent in Genesis seems to indicate that Satan is some sort of evil entity, as well.
Again where do you get the idea that the searpent is Satan, doesn't say it in there. And even if it was satan, well, then like I said Satan does not work for people, he works for G-d. Sp people would not be happy with the results of his work.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Again to whom is this refering? It looks to me that it is the King of Tyre, I can't really see how this refers to the Satan, since Satan is not mentioned.


Was the king of Tyre a Cherubim? Was he created rather than born? Satan was. Put two and two together.

Quote: And even if it was satan, well, then like I said Satan does not work for people, he works for G-d.

Yeah, but the serpent got into some pretty hot water for working against YHWH, did he not?

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Again to whom is this refering? It looks to me that it is the King of Tyre, I can't really see how this refers to the Satan, since Satan is not mentioned.


Was the king of Tyre a Cherubim? Was he created rather than born? Satan was. Put two and two together.
One word Metaphor. Besides how do you know that Satan ia a Cherub, maybe he is an Ophan or a Chaya?

Quote: Quote: And even if it was satan, well, then like I said Satan does not work for people, he works for G-d.

Yeah, but the serpent got into some pretty hot water for working against YHWH, did he not?
That is true, but again that assumes that the searpent was Satan, something that is unsubstantiated. If it was Satan then it is an intereting point and needs to be understood. But are you saying that Satan now crawls around on his belly eating dirt?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: But are you saying that Satan now crawls around on his belly eating dirt?


No, I would never disrepect an angelic being of that stature and power, that would be foolish. But, it could refer to his being relegated to the material plane. Which he now rules over according to the design YHWH implimented for our salvation. So, in a sense Satan does work for YHWH, just as everything in the universe does. Whether they want to or not.

Quote: One word Metaphor. Besides how do you know that Satan ia a Cherub, maybe he is an Ophan or a Chaya?

Well, I doubt this is a metaphor. Why a reference to an evil and profane king using a cherub as a metaphor? That's illogical. Unless, of course, it is possible that a Cherub could rebel against YHWH, which seems to be the case of Satan.

And the real kicker, the thing that proves it in my mind, according to the principles of midrash, is this passage clearly references the fact that this being was directly created, bara. Not yalad

And not one word in the scripture is there without a distinct purpose and we both know that. It's not a casual reference or a slip up. It is distinctly meant to indicate created, not born.

That being the fact of the matter, I can see that this scripture tells us that Satan is a cherubim who was was blameless from the day he was created until unrighteousness was was found in him by YHWH at some time.

Probably at the incident in the Eden, I suspect.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: But are you saying that Satan now crawls around on his belly eating dirt?


No, I would never disrepect an angelic being of that stature and power, that would be foolish. But, it could refer to his being relegated to the material plane. Which he now rules over according to the design YHWH implimented for our salvation. So, in a sense Satan does work for YHWH, just as everything in the universe does. Whether they want to or not.
If Satan really did rebel against G-d then he deserves our disrespect and disdain. He has no stature if he rebels agianst G-d.

Then what does it mean when I G-d told the Satan that he will crawl on his belly and eat dirt? Because women now have pain in childbirth, and you have to work to earn a living. So those punishments where real, why is Satan's only a metaphor?

So G-d uses Satan to tempt us, so that we can ultimately be saved from Him. Why would have G-d given Satan this power over people?

Quote: Quote: One word Metaphor. Besides how do you know that Satan is a Cherub, maybe he is an Ophan or a Chaya?

Well, I doubt this is a metaphor. Why a reference to an evil and profane king using a cherub as a metaphor? That's illogical. Unless, of course, it is possible that a Cherub could rebel against YHWH, which seems to be the case of Satan.

And the real kicker, the thing that proves it in my mind, according to the principles of midrash, is this passage clearly references the fact that this being was directly created, bara. Not yalad

And not one word in the scripture is there without a distinct purpose and we both know that. It's not a casual reference or a slip up. It is distinctly meant to indicate created, not born.

That being the fact of the matter, I can see that this scripture tells us that Satan is a cherubim who was was blameless from the day he was created until unrighteousness was was found in him by YHWH at some time.

Probably at the incident in the Eden, I suspect.

The point is that the king of Tyre was not evil to start out with he was good, had the potential to be righteous as a Cherub. But he perverted His ways and forgot his Maker, and so was punished.
What does G-d say to Ezekial, sing a lamentation for the King of Tyre. It is poetry, poetry that has language that is not always literal, since its intent is not just to give information, it is also to invoke an emotion.

Ok so answer me this, if the King of Tyre is Satan, then why does it say 3 verses earlier "you are a man and not a god" even if Satan was an angel and not a god, he would not be a man either. And another question, why the King of Tyre. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[JayDubya]

Oh cool, thanks for picking this up.

To respond to some of this...

Well, Revelations does mention a war in heaven amongst the host of angels, Michael and his ilk fighting a "dragon," "a serpent." It kind of all ties together into a narrative on its own, Milton just connected the dots.

For a Jew, however, it's entirely unclear that the clay-eating snake in Eden was an angel (or perhaps a servant of God), and if so, why. Also, our perspective regarding the book of Job may differ, but nevertheless in it, God and Satan are having a discussion and Satan is acting fully subservient. Satan comes off as being just an agent of God that works against man.

For a Christian, one could speculate that the snake was the only form the fallen angel Lucifer could use to infiltrate the material world and speak with Eve.

I've heard the king of Babylon argument as well and read the quote before. As a nonbeliever I think both possibilities are interesting and lend to drastically different views. I can see how a Christian would argue by citing references from the NT, but also how a Jew would come to his conclusion given that nothing in the Tanach substantiates that viewpoint.

* * *

It does seem interesting that for a Christian, the fallen angel concept is matter of fact, but to a Jew, the very idea is absurd. I think he makes a very compelling villain, in a literary sense.

It does raise an interesting point to bring up, though. Without using Milton or medieval dogma, does the Bible say anything about *why* Lucifer / Satan started a war in heaven and turned away from God?

On the one hand, it's supposed to be impossible to know God and not to love him, especially for an angel, but on the other hand, the Bible does seem to enumerate an "eternal sin" regarding knowing God's goodness and yet still turning away from him, so perhaps Lucifer, and not man, was guilty of the first sin.

In Paradise Lost, that sin was pride, it gave way into envy, and eventually cost the angel everything.

* * *

So getting back away from Christian views, since we're in the Judaism subforum, to summarize what I've learned thus far: the Jewish perspective is that Lucifer is not the name of an angel, and there's no such thing as an angel that would turn against God.

So what exactly *does* the Tanach / associated Jewish "dogma" (all apologies if you guys don't use the word dogma or would take offense to it, I just don't know the associated terminology well enough to express the question better) have to say about Satan? For starters, what is he, and is the serpent in Eden supposed to be Satan? And if not, what is the serpent?

(Also, and this is just a random question, why do you write it "G-d?"

Edit: http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm Nevermind. A respect thing. Got it.)

[Mailech]

JayDubya wrote: So what exactly *does* the Tanach / associated Jewish "dogma" (all apologies if you guys don't use the word dogma or would take offense to it, I just don't know the associated terminology well enough to express the question better) have to say about Satan? For starters, what is he, and is the serpent in Eden supposed to be Satan? And if not, what is the serpent?

Well Satan is G-d's chief prosecuting attorney. He uses our sins as evidence against us. (Our merits are evidence for us). But Satan also has the ability to gather evidence through entrapment. That is his role as the evil inclination. It is written in the Gemara that Satan has three roles. The prosecutor, the evil inclination and the angel of death.

As for the serpent, well that is not so easy, since none of that story is really so easy, I don't pretend to really understand what it is all about. But there is an opinion that the serpent is the evil incilination, and therefore it bears questioning, why G-d was angry at him for doing his job.

[JayDubya]

Mailech wrote: JayDubya wrote: So what exactly *does* the Tanach / associated Jewish "dogma" (all apologies if you guys don't use the word dogma or would take offense to it, I just don't know the associated terminology well enough to express the question better) have to say about Satan? For starters, what is he, and is the serpent in Eden supposed to be Satan? And if not, what is the serpent?

Well Satan is G-d's chief prosecuting attorney. He uses our sins as evidence against us. (Our merits are evidence for us). But Satan also has the ability to gather evidence through entrapment. That is his role as the evil inclination. It is written in the Gemara that Satan has three roles. The prosecutor, the evil inclination and the angel of death.

As for the serpent, well that is not so easy, since none of that story is really so easy, I don't pretend to really understand what it is all about. But there is an opinion that the serpent is the evil incilination, and therefore it bears questioning, why G-d was angry at him for doing his job.

So he's kind of like an angelic "District Attorney," but what's the crime mankind stands accused of (Being evil?), and what's the punishment dealt out if convicted (I don't think there's a hell in Judaism either)?

[Mailech]

JayDubya wrote: Mailech wrote: JayDubya wrote: So what exactly *does* the Tanach / associated Jewish "dogma" (all apologies if you guys don't use the word dogma or would take offense to it, I just don't know the associated terminology well enough to express the question better) have to say about Satan? For starters, what is he, and is the serpent in Eden supposed to be Satan? And if not, what is the serpent?

Well Satan is G-d's chief prosecuting attorney. He uses our sins as evidence against us. (Our merits are evidence for us). But Satan also has the ability to gather evidence through entrapment. That is his role as the evil inclination. It is written in the Gemara that Satan has three roles. The prosecutor, the evil inclination and the angel of death.

As for the serpent, well that is not so easy, since none of that story is really so easy, I don't pretend to really understand what it is all about. But there is an opinion that the serpent is the evil incilination, and therefore it bears questioning, why G-d was angry at him for doing his job.

So he's kind of like an angelic "District Attorney," but what's the crime mankind stands accused of (Being evil?), and what's the punishment dealt out if convicted (I don't think there's a hell in Judaism either)?

Well the crimes are not following G-d's Laws. There is a hell in Judaism, it is just a different concept. I have heard it compared to the Catholic purgatory, but since I don't know anything about purgatory, I can't verify that. Anyway, there is another thread called No Hell in Judaism? that addresses this.

[melchizedek22]

the big boom was caused by Satan's fall,before that,there was no matter,only spirits

[Mailech]

melchizedek22 wrote: the big boom was caused by Satan's fall,before that,there was no matter,only spirits

Do you mean the big bang?

That is clearly not the case, read Genesis chapter 1 for the refutation.

[Plodder]

yahweh, god, madfe satan. he is very real. stan made the choice to rebel against god and now will never be in gods prescece again

[John]

Quote: Then what does it mean when I G-d told the Satan that he will crawl on his belly and eat dirt?

Do serpents eat dirt?



Quote: But are you saying that Satan now crawls around on his belly eating dirt?

What is man made out of?

[John]

Quote: Ok so answer me this, if the King of Tyre is Satan, then why does it say 3 verses earlier "you are a man and not a god" even if Satan was an angel and not a god, he would not be a man either. And another question, why the King of Tyre. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?


Because there is a deeper concept at hand here. Is the verse talking about the literal King of Tyre? Yes...you bet.

But, what the Scripture is telling us is that there was a force behind the king calling the shots. That Satan was controling the king of Tyre, and in so...was the real king of Tyre.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Quote: Ok so answer me this, if the King of Tyre is Satan, then why does it say 3 verses earlier "you are a man and not a god" even if Satan was an angel and not a god, he would not be a man either. And another question, why the King of Tyre. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?


Because there is a deeper concept at hand here. Is the verse talking about the literal King of Tyre? Yes...you bet.

But, what the Scripture is telling us is that there was a force behind the king calling the shots. That Satan was controling the king of Tyre, and in so...was the real king of Tyre.

But what about the other "reference" to Lucifer, where it is a prophecy about the King of Babylon? Is Satan controlling both? Can you really say that Satan is controlling Nevuchadnetzar, if G-d said that He sent him?
When you say controlling, do you mean like Satan took away the king of Tyre's free will? Can Satan do that?

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Quote: Ok so answer me this, if the King of Tyre is Satan, then why does it say 3 verses earlier "you are a man and not a god" even if Satan was an angel and not a god, he would not be a man either. And another question, why the King of Tyre. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?


Because there is a deeper concept at hand here. Is the verse talking about the literal King of Tyre? Yes...you bet.

But, what the Scripture is telling us is that there was a force behind the king calling the shots. That Satan was controling the king of Tyre, and in so...was the real king of Tyre.

But what about the other "reference" to Lucifer, where it is a prophecy about the King of Babylon? Is Satan controlling both? Can you really say that Satan is controlling Nevuchadnetzar, if G-d said that He sent him?
When you say controlling, do you mean like Satan took away the king of Tyre's free will? Can Satan do that?

We're talking about different periods of time here, no?

Can heroin take away your free will? Sin gets a hold of a man...and when this happens Satan is their master and in control of them. I personally think Satan deals with the leaders of nations and his minions deal with the rest of us.

But at the same time...Satan can't do anything that God doesn't allow him to do....that doesn't mean that God tells Satan to do it...He allows Satan to do what Satan wants to do, there is a difference.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Can heroin take away your free will?
I don't know I have never taken heroin. But no I don't think anything but G-d can take your free will. Maybe it can loosen your inhibitions. But I don't think it can take way your free will. But then again, having nevr taken heroin or known anyone who has taken heroin, I really can't know for sure.

Quote: Sin gets a hold of a man...and when this happens Satan is their master and in control of them. I personally think Satan deals with the leaders of nations and his minions deal with the rest of us.
No you are wrong, but I guess this is a deeper issue of free will that you and I disagree on.

Quote: But at the same time...Satan can't do anything that God doesn't allow him to do....that doesn't mean that God tells Satan to do it...He allows Satan to do what Satan wants to do, there is a difference.
No you can't say that. I am learning Jeremiah, right now. I don't see how you can say that bringing on Babylon was merely G-d letting it happen. G-d willed that they should destroy the Temple and exile the Judians. G-d desired that it should happen. So he put babylon in the position to do it. But if it was Satan that put Babylon in that position, it must be that G-d is controlling Satan. If that is the case then Satan is still not independant of G-d.

[John]

Well, maybe I am wrong. Time will tell.

I base a lot of what I'm saying on further insight given in the New Testament.

A lot of the mysteries of the OT are explained in the NT. Demonic powers working behind the scenes in this world system being one of them.

[Pareve]

Satan is merely an angel who challenges. He is an extension of God for the purposes of God conversing with himself. I always saw the story of Job as being sort of an internal dialogue.

If God is omnipotent, then how could anything or anyone actually rebel or stand against God?

There doesn't need to be a Satan in the Christian sense, because every human being is imbued with Yetzer Ha-Ra and Yetzer Ha-Tov. Human beings have free will to decide what is good and what is evil, and to wrestle with their own concepts of God, and to try to live up to standards which they must develop themselves, with guidance from whatever they deem necissary.

As for Hell... I suppose that non-existence could be seen as Hell, but I think that it is more humane, in concept. I don't necissarily believe in the world to come in the literal sense, (I'm not orthodox, but I was raised orthodox so I'm familiar with the concept). I think that Judaism is a religion that is oriented more towards living a good life than ending up in some sort of good afterlife.