Political Crossfire Forums

[Rozzlapeed]

I've been doing some thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that the ultimate moral imperative of the book of Revelation is for you to get your spiritual affairs in order sooner rather than later, because you don't know how long you're going to have to do it.

I've also come to the conclusion that this message is not unique among the other books in the Bible, nor is it something that any Christian could not have come up with on their own, since every person will meet their fate at one point or another, most likely with very little warning.

Therefore, if you are a Christian, does it really make a difference if you believe that your own personal deadline for salvation is much more likely to arrive with the front-end of an oncoming semi than it is to arrive alongside some incredible cosmic spectacle?

No, it doesn't matter. You don't know when the Rapture will occur, and you don't know the day and time of your death. If both the Bible and statistical analyses of thousands of years of human history are to be believed, it is possible that either might occur tomorrow.

Why, then, is the Rapture such a pressing issue for modern evangelists? In my opinion, it is very likely that all the people alive today will die before the Second Coming. Why attempt to persuade people with such an unfathomable and unlikely event as the Apocalypse, when there are so many real-world examples of sudden death that can more tangibly demonstrate the shortness of our lives on Earth? What makes the Rapture so appealing to Evangelical Christians?

I've come up with some hypotheses to explain this fascination with the end-times:

1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I've got some more, but I don't have the energy to keep typing right now.

Also, I may come off as sarcastic, but that's just my style. I do consider this a reasonable topic for rational debate, and a thorough discussion might include some interesting thoughts about morality and human nature.

What are your thoughts?

[toddytodd]

Rozzlapeed wrote: I've been doing some thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that the ultimate moral imperative of the book of Revelation is for you to get your spiritual affairs in order sooner rather than later, because you don't know how long you're going to have to do it.

I've also come to the conclusion that this message is not unique among the other books in the Bible, nor is it something that any Christian could not have come up with on their own, since every person will meet their fate at one point or another, most likely with very little warning.

Therefore, if you are a Christian, does it really make a difference if you believe that your own personal deadline for salvation is much more likely to arrive with the front-end of an oncoming semi than it is to arrive alongside some incredible cosmic spectacle?

No, it doesn't matter. You don't know when the Rapture will occur, and you don't know the day and time of your death. If both the Bible and statistical analyses of thousands of years of human history are to be believed, it is possible that either might occur tomorrow.

Why, then, is the Rapture such a pressing issue for modern evangelists? In my opinion, it is very likely that all the people alive today will die before the Second Coming. Why attempt to persuade people with such an unfathomable and unlikely event as the Apocalypse, when there are so many real-world examples of sudden death that can more tangibly demonstrate the shortness of our lives on Earth? What makes the Rapture so appealing to Evangelical Christians?

I've come up with some hypotheses to explain this fascination with the end-times:

1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I've got some more, but I don't have the energy to keep typing right now.

Also, I may come off as sarcastic, but that's just my style. I do consider this a reasonable topic for rational debate, and a thorough discussion might include some interesting thoughts about morality and human nature.

What are your thoughts?

I think you summed it up very well with one word: FEAR.
The fear of hell is what makes some people become Christian. Many Christian teachers know this and use it to 'get more Christians'.
The fear of not knowing what happens after you die is a good reason to turn to Christianity, as it explains after one dies, who goes where and why.
I have even heard that the Bible eludes that you should 'fear God' is some fashion. I( can't remember seeing it written in there personally, but I have heard many people say so, so not sure if that is 100% truth or not.)
The list can continue.
As far as the rapture goes, I don't see what the big deal is about it. Unless because it is only a public display of a belief. Modern Christianity seems to like public displays of things Christian (baby dedications, baptism, tent meetings, revivals, Sunday churches, etc). I am not saying that is or isn't a bad thing, only that the rapture seems to fall in line with the publicity of Christian events.
What makes it so appealing? I would guess because it is thought to be an undeniable event. Powerful. Glorious. Almost a 'in your face', 'I told ya' so' type of proof.
But that is just how I see it.

EDIT: Fear is not the only reason why people become Christian. I just wanted to note that to try to avoid upsetting people that think fear is the only reason.

[John]

Rozzlapeed wrote: I've been doing some thinking, and I've come to the conclusion that the ultimate moral imperative of the book of Revelation is for you to get your spiritual affairs in order sooner rather than later, because you don't know how long you're going to have to do it.

I've also come to the conclusion that this message is not unique among the other books in the Bible, nor is it something that any Christian could not have come up with on their own, since every person will meet their fate at one point or another, most likely with very little warning.

Therefore, if you are a Christian, does it really make a difference if you believe that your own personal deadline for salvation is much more likely to arrive with the front-end of an oncoming semi than it is to arrive alongside some incredible cosmic spectacle?

No, it doesn't matter. You don't know when the Rapture will occur, and you don't know the day and time of your death. If both the Bible and statistical analyses of thousands of years of human history are to be believed, it is possible that either might occur tomorrow.

Why, then, is the Rapture such a pressing issue for modern evangelists? In my opinion, it is very likely that all the people alive today will die before the Second Coming. Why attempt to persuade people with such an unfathomable and unlikely event as the Apocalypse, when there are so many real-world examples of sudden death that can more tangibly demonstrate the shortness of our lives on Earth? What makes the Rapture so appealing to Evangelical Christians?

I've come up with some hypotheses to explain this fascination with the end-times:

1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I've got some more, but I don't have the energy to keep typing right now.

Also, I may come off as sarcastic, but that's just my style. I do consider this a reasonable topic for rational debate, and a thorough discussion might include some interesting thoughts about morality and human nature.

What are your thoughts?

There is no guarantee that if you reject the Gospel now, that you will be able to accept it after the Rapture.

You see, we live in a special time where God is focusing on the Gentiles. When the Rapture happens, that basically means that God’s focus has shifted back to the Jew. Any Gentiles that are saved during the Tribulation are of a different category than the ones saved before. They won’t be part of the “Church” or “bride of Christ”. Research the term Tribulation Saints if you’re interested.

Plus...if you accept Christ during the Great Tribulation you will most likely be executed, have you're family killed, staved, ECT...basically, it will not be easy.

[John]

Quote: 1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I wouldn't have a problem with just dying and ceasing to be. Why would I care...I wouldn't know either way.

You are wrong. I'm not interested in end time events and prophecy because I'm afraid of dying.

It's because I've personally experienced the reality of God and KNOW that He is real. I'm interested because it's real.

Fear is actually a pretty sane reaction when one comes to the realization of the reality of God.

[Rozzlapeed]

John wrote: There is no guarantee that if you reject the Gospel now, that you will be able to accept it after the Rapture.

You see, we live in a special time where God is focusing on the Gentiles. When the Rapture happens, that basically means that God’s focus has shifted back to the Jew. Any Gentiles that are saved during the Tribulation are of a different category than the ones saved before. They won’t be part of the “Church” or “bride of Christ”. Research the term Tribulation Saints if you’re interested.

Plus...if you accept Christ during the Great Tribulation you will most likely be executed, have you're family killed, staved, ECT...basically, it will not be easy.

I understand that. I was making that the assumption that the deadline for salvation would come before the tribulation, i.e. as soon as the Rapture occurs. If there is any chance for salvation DURING the tribulation, it would only serve to strengthen my point, which is that the significance of the Apocalypse, in terms of your own personal salvation, is disproportionately over-emphasized by Evangelical Christians.

If some reliable authority told you that you will either die or witness the rapture on Saturday, would you do anything different to prepare for the weekend, depending on which event you think is more likely to occur?

[Todd D.]

Ultimately the rapture is a theology of comfort. It's comforting to believe that you will be spared a horrible mass muderer, persecution, all the fun stuff that John mentioned earlier. It's comforting to believe that God will spare you of that. Of course, that ignores the martyrs throughout history that God, for some reason, did NOT spare.

I think cap'n has a way of displaying his faith as a "This is the way thigngs are, if you don't believe if you aren't believing the Bible". I disagree with that. I will agree that a certain reading of the text can be used to suggest that the Rapture will be Pre-Millenial, but I do disagree with that conclusion. He assumes a Pre-Millenial position, wheras assuming a more Amillenial position leads to an entirely different conclusion. That doesn't mean that either side is "ignoring the facts", it simply means that different conclusions are being drawn.

[Rozzlapeed]

Todd D. wrote: Ultimately the rapture is a theology of comfort. It's comforting to believe that you will be spared a horrible mass muderer, persecution, all the fun stuff that John mentioned earlier. It's comforting to believe that God will spare you of that. Of course, that ignores the martyrs throughout history that God, for some reason, did NOT spare.

I think cap'n has a way of displaying his faith as a "This is the way thigngs are, if you don't believe if you aren't believing the Bible". I disagree with that. I will agree that a certain reading of the text can be used to suggest that the Rapture will be Pre-Millenial, but I do disagree with that conclusion. He assumes a Pre-Millenial position, wheras assuming a more Amillenial position leads to an entirely different conclusion. That doesn't mean that either side is "ignoring the facts", it simply means that different conclusions are being drawn.

I want to leave the discussion of the actual nature of the Rapture to the other threads that already deal with that topic. I am more interested in how it has come to be such a big part of Christian Evangelism.

The question that this thread poses is not, "Why do so many people believe in the Rapture," but rather, "Why do so many people fervently believe that they will LIVE TO SEE the Rapture?"

[Rozzlapeed]

John wrote: Quote: 1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I wouldn't have a problem with just dying and ceasing to be. Why would I care...I wouldn't know either way.

You are wrong. I'm not interested in end time events and prophecy because I'm afraid of dying.

It's because I've personally experienced the reality of God and KNOW that He is real. I'm interested because it's real.

Fear is actually a pretty sane reaction when one comes to the realization of the reality of God.

John, I'm not talking about God vs. no God. My question is, why do you set the Rapture as such a high priority of your Evangelism, instead of more often making a general point that, "You might die tomorrow. The Rapture might come on Sunday. Either way, you don't know how long you have left to get your affairs in order. May I suggest that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?"

I see people so often getting into such long and heated arguments about whether or not the Rapture will actually happen, that both sides forget how possible it is that none of them will live to see it even if it does take place.

Why has the Rapture risen to such a level of importance in Evangelism? What makes it more appealing as a recruiting tool than good old-fashioned death? Why stake your credibility on its acceptance as an absolute scenario?

[John]

Rozzlapeed wrote: John wrote: Quote: 1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I wouldn't have a problem with just dying and ceasing to be. Why would I care...I wouldn't know either way.

You are wrong. I'm not interested in end time events and prophecy because I'm afraid of dying.

It's because I've personally experienced the reality of God and KNOW that He is real. I'm interested because it's real.

Fear is actually a pretty sane reaction when one comes to the realization of the reality of God.

John, I'm not talking about God vs. no God. My question is, why do you set the Rapture as such a high priority of your Evangelism, instead of more often making a general point that, "You might die tomorrow. The Rapture might come on Sunday. Either way, you don't know how long you have left to get your affairs in order. May I suggest that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?"

I see people so often getting into such long and heated arguments about whether or not the Rapture will actually happen, that both sides forget how possible it is that none of them will live to see it even if it does take place.

Why has the Rapture risen to such a level of importance in Evangelism? What makes it more appealing as a recruiting tool than good old-fashioned death? Why stake your credibility on its acceptance as an absolute scenario?

Is it? I rarely ever talk about the Rapture. Really only if someone brings it up.

I don't think it is a high priority at all in Evangelism. It's a hot topic among people who already believe though….because it’s something that we believe is going to happen to us. It’s only logical that it would be a point of interest.

Evangelism isn't about recruting and using tools. It's about just talking about the Truth. The Holy Spirit will move in the person if they are going to accept it. Basically it isn't my job to convert people....just to present the message. The rest is up to God.

[John]

Quote: The question that this thread poses is not, "Why do so many people believe in the Rapture," but rather, "Why do so many people fervently believe that they will LIVE TO SEE the Rapture?"

Because the events that are happening in the world match what is described in the Bible for the end times. So, the logical conclusion to someone who believes in the Rapture, it to think that it is getting close.

[Todd D.]

John wrote: Quote: The question that this thread poses is not, "Why do so many people believe in the Rapture," but rather, "Why do so many people fervently believe that they will LIVE TO SEE the Rapture?"

Because the events that are happening in the world match what is described in the Bible for the end times. So, the logical conclusion to someone who believes in the Rapture, it to think that it is getting close.
I would suggest that the rather vague nature of the end-times described can be matched to various times in world history, which is why I think that every generation believes that they are the last ones.

[John]

Todd D. wrote: John wrote: Quote: The question that this thread poses is not, "Why do so many people believe in the Rapture," but rather, "Why do so many people fervently believe that they will LIVE TO SEE the Rapture?"

Because the events that are happening in the world match what is described in the Bible for the end times. So, the logical conclusion to someone who believes in the Rapture, it to think that it is getting close.
I would suggest that the rather vague nature of the end-times described can be matched to various times in world history, which is why I think that every generation believes that they are the last ones.

I don't think Israel becoming a nation again is really all that "vague".

If someone is curious to what Evangeicals believe about the Rapture....why do you feel the need to nay say?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: If some reliable authority told you that you will either die or witness the rapture on Saturday, would you do anything different to prepare for the weekend, depending on which event you think is more likely to occur?

The thing is, a reliable authority told us that we aren't going to know when it is going to happen, and so should be doing things differently all along, anyway.

[Todd D.]

Quote: I don't think Israel becoming a nation again is really all that "vague".
No, but then again there have been several times in history where people have predicted that recent events (even regarding the Israelis) "proved" that they were living in the last generation.

Quote: If someone is curious to what Evangeicals believe about the Rapture....why do you feel the need to nay say?
I'm not "nay-saying", I'm offering a counter-point. Isn't that kinda how discussions go?

[cap'n queasy]

John wrote: Todd D. wrote: John wrote: Quote: The question that this thread poses is not, "Why do so many people believe in the Rapture," but rather, "Why do so many people fervently believe that they will LIVE TO SEE the Rapture?"

Because the events that are happening in the world match what is described in the Bible for the end times. So, the logical conclusion to someone who believes in the Rapture, it to think that it is getting close.
I would suggest that the rather vague nature of the end-times described can be matched to various times in world history, which is why I think that every generation believes that they are the last ones.

I don't think Israel becoming a nation again is really all that "vague".

If someone is curious to what Evangeicals believe about the Rapture....why do you feel the need to nay say?

No, it's not vague at all.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: No, but then again there have been several times in history where people have predicted that recent events (even regarding the Israelis) "proved" that they were living in the last generation.

When?

Israel's only been around since 1948. The generation that saw this happen is just now getting old. And if recent events in Israel are any indication, things are heating up.

[Todd D.]

Quote: When?

Israel's only been around since 1948. The generation that saw this happen is just now getting old. And if recent events in Israel are any indication, things are heating up.
Jews/Israelis/Hebrews have been around far longer, and events surrounding that ethnicity has most definitly been interpreted as prefacing "the end".

I don't doubt that you can interpret passages in Scripture to support the idea that we are in the last generation. All I'm saying is that we aren't the first to think so, and if you are wrong, we won't be the last to think so as well.

[Rozzlapeed]

John wrote: Rozzlapeed wrote: John wrote: Quote: 1. Fear of Death: The great majority of people, not just Christians, are effectively in a state of denial regarding their own mortality. The natural human fear of death causes people to reject any assumptions that would force them to accept the inevitability of their demise. According to many artists' conceptual renderings of the Rapture, people won't die, they'll simply taken up. This lack of death makes it a more palatable end than a tragic plane crash, so people are more likely respond to it as warning of impending doom.

2. Fear of Dying Alone: When you die, there's a good chance that you will die alone. Or with people you don't know or don't like. Either way, it will probably not be an enjoyable experience. That alone might be enough to cause you to yearn to be caught up in the Rapture, as it promises to be pain-free and chock-full of communing with people who are nice and friendly, just like you. By convincing other people to believe in and hope for this beautiful scenario, you might be able to stop worrying about the darker, lonlier, and much more likely death experience.

I wouldn't have a problem with just dying and ceasing to be. Why would I care...I wouldn't know either way.

You are wrong. I'm not interested in end time events and prophecy because I'm afraid of dying.

It's because I've personally experienced the reality of God and KNOW that He is real. I'm interested because it's real.

Fear is actually a pretty sane reaction when one comes to the realization of the reality of God.

John, I'm not talking about God vs. no God. My question is, why do you set the Rapture as such a high priority of your Evangelism, instead of more often making a general point that, "You might die tomorrow. The Rapture might come on Sunday. Either way, you don't know how long you have left to get your affairs in order. May I suggest that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?"

I see people so often getting into such long and heated arguments about whether or not the Rapture will actually happen, that both sides forget how possible it is that none of them will live to see it even if it does take place.

Why has the Rapture risen to such a level of importance in Evangelism? What makes it more appealing as a recruiting tool than good old-fashioned death? Why stake your credibility on its acceptance as an absolute scenario?

Is it? I rarely ever talk about the Rapture. Really only if someone brings it up.

I don't think it is a high priority at all in Evangelism. It's a hot topic among people who already believe though….because it’s something that we believe is going to happen to us. It’s only logical that it would be a point of interest.

It is logical that it should be a point of interest. I'm interested in it, and I don't even believe that it will occur as it is literally described in the Bible or as it is described anywhere else for that matter. I'm interested in it because I am intrigued by the wide variety of emotions that different Christians, as individuals, attach to the belief that the end of the world is near.

I don't want this to be a discussion about whether the Rapture will or will not happen, I want this to be a discussion of how the Rapture scenario is framed in the minds of those who believe that it will happen in their lifetime.

You say, "we believe [it will] happen to us." Who are you referring to when you say, "us"? Do you mean all the born-again Christians who are alive today? Or do you mean all the born-again Christians alive today, minus the number of Christians who will die before that day, plus the number of people who will become born-again before that day?

Do you mean that you strongly believe that you, personally, will be alive on Earth long enough to physically witness it? Do you ever temper this belief with the consideration that God may have determined that your time will come before the Rapture occurs? Do you ever consider that your wife or your children may not live to see it?

If you don't consider these possibilities very often, is it the hope for the Rapture that drives such thoughts from your mind, or is it just your natural human nature that causes you to avoid thinking about death?

[Rozzlapeed]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If some reliable authority told you that you will either die or witness the rapture on Saturday, would you do anything different to prepare for the weekend, depending on which event you think is more likely to occur?

The thing is, a reliable authority told us that we aren't going to know when it is going to happen, and so should be doing things differently all along, anyway.

What I'm asking is, when you picture your last day on Earth, what do you see? Do you see yourself witnessing the end of the world, or do you see yourself dying in some manner? Do you think this mental impression affects how you go about preparing for the end?

[John]

Quote: You say, "we believe [it will] happen to us." Who are you referring to when you say, "us"? Do you mean all the born-again Christians who are alive today? Or do you mean all the born-again Christians alive today, minus the number of Christians who will die before that day, plus the number of people who will become born-again before that day?

It will happen to all Christians (born again believers) who have ever lived. The dead first and then the ones who are still living when it happens.