Political Crossfire Forums

[Ssushi]

Gun Facts

The following data is not per head of puulation but if you pro-rata the figures, still the US is way ahead in gun crime. I know the pro-gunners aren't going to agree with the data but please tell my why you think that your lives are safer than mine, just because you can own a gun for self defence...

My opinion: The more guns in society, the more the need to own one as defence. Hence in Europe, there is no need for people to own a gun. Please note, that gun crime is also affected by eduction, opportunity and society.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gun-control

In 1996, 2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States. [FBI Uniform Crime Report]


Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense. [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]


Every two years, more Americans die of gunshot than there were American soldiers killed during the entire Vietnam War [National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac].


In homes with guns, a member of the household is almost three times as likely to be the victim of a homicide compared to gun-free homes. Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home." NEJM 329:15 (1993):1084-1091.


• In 2001, firearms were used to murder 6 people in New Zealand, 56 in Japan, 96 in Great Britain, 168 in Canada, and 331 in Germany United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2001-2002).


In comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,348 in the United States WISQARS, Injury Mortality Reports.


In 2003, there were only 163 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in the United States FBI Uniform Crime Report, 2003, table 2.16, p. 24.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Ssushi wrote: Gun Facts

The following data is not per head of puulation but if you pro-rata the figures, still the US is way ahead in gun crime. I know the pro-gunners aren't going to agree with the data but please tell my why you think that your lives are safer than mine, just because you can own a gun for self defence...

My opinion: The more guns in society, the more the need to own one as defence. Hence in Europe, there is no need for people to own a gun. Please note, that gun crime is also affected by eduction, opportunity and society.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gun-control

In 1996, 2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States. [FBI Uniform Crime Report]


Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense. [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]


Every two years, more Americans die of gunshot than there were American soldiers killed during the entire Vietnam War [National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac].


In homes with guns, a member of the household is almost three times as likely to be the victim of a homicide compared to gun-free homes. Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home." NEJM 329:15 (1993):1084-1091.


• In 2001, firearms were used to murder 6 people in New Zealand, 56 in Japan, 96 in Great Britain, 168 in Canada, and 331 in Germany United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2001-2002).


In comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,348 in the United States WISQARS, Injury Mortality Reports.


In 2003, there were only 163 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in the United States FBI Uniform Crime Report, 2003, table 2.16, p. 24.

The amount of violent crime diminishes when an armed populace is allowed to own and carry with limited restriction, firearms. Current legislation and passing of CCW allowances as well as the push for Castle Doctrine are backed up by a LOWER crime rate in States where the population are not forced to be cowering victims.

My opinion is based upon my own life - I will not cower in a corner or rely on an inadequate police force who cannot protect me or my family should someone break into my house in the night looking to either harm my children, rob me, or want to cause anyone of my family bodily harm. Dialing 911 will get police to my house in about 10 minutes - not quick enough.

I feel it is my duty to protect my family and not act as a coward when confronted by a criminal. Education and experience in handling ANY tool, which includes a gun, provides the means for me and my family a fighting chance to defend ourselves.

It's also a constitutional right that has been upheld and continues to be upheld within the local, state and federal court systems.

You're facts are not facts, but misrepresentations that the anti-gun lobby certainly wants ignorant people to believe. As as been represented here on PCF - Libertarians (generally), Republicans (mostly), Greens (some) and Democrats (Some) believe that blaming death on an inanimate object is idiotic. People have the right to defend themselves, which is one of those inalienable rights of freedom.


As you've posted some flagrant biased gun facts, I thought I'd provide the other side of the coin from the NRA - enjoy!

-----------------------------------------------------

FIREARMS FACTS:
GENERAL NUMBER OF Approx. 200 million firearms, GUNS IN U.S.: including 65-70 million handguns GUN OWNERS IN U.S.: 60-65 million, 30-35 million own handguns

FIREARMS USED 11% of firearms owners FOR PROTECTION: 13% of handgun owners

CRIMINAL MISUSE OF Less than 0.2% of firearms, FIREARMS YEARLY: Less than 0.4% of handguns Over 99.8% of U.S. firearms and 99.6% of U.S. handguns will not be involved in criminal activity in any given year. NRA voluntary firearm safety programs have helped reduce the accidental firearm fatality rate 67% over the last 50 years, while firearms ownership has risen 140%, and handgun ownership has risen 200%.

WHY AMERICANS OWN FIREARMS (Based on 1978 Decision Making Information surveys, with handgun data confirmed by 1978 Caddell survey.) Primary Reasons to Own/Use Firearms, Projected Number of Americans (Approx. 60-65 million owners of 200,000,000 or more firearms)

HUNTING: 51% 33,000,000 Americans
PROTECTION: 32% 21,000,000 " Used Gun for Protection: 11% 7,000,000 "
TARGET SHOOTING: 13% 8,500,000 "
COLLECTING: 4% 2,600.000 "

Primary Reasons to Own/Use Handguns Projected Number of Americans (30-35 million owners of 65,000,000 handguns)

HUNTING: 10% 3,500,000 Americans
PROTECTION: 58% 21,000,000 " Used Gun For Protection: 13% 4,600,666 "
TARGET SHOOTING: 18% 6,300,000 "
COLLECTING: 14% 5,000,000 "

FIREARMS AND SELF-DEFENSE Survey research indicates that there are more than 2.1 million protective uses of firearms each year, far more than the number of violent criminal gun uses reported by the FBI. Most self-defense uses do not involve discharge of a firearm. In only 0.1% of defensive gun uses is a criminal killed, and in only 1% is a criminal wounded. A Department of Justice-sponsored survey found that 40% of felons had chosen not to commit at least one specific crime for fear their victims were armed, and 34% admitted being scared off or shot at by armed victims. U. S. Department of Justice victimization surveys show that the protective use of a firearm lessens the chance that a rape, robbery or assault attempt will be successfully completed and also reduces the chance of injury to the intended victim.

CRIME RATES LOWER IN STATES THAT ALLOW LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS TO CARRY FIREARMS States with favorable concealed carry laws have lower rates of crime than states with restrictive concealed carry laws. Overall, the homicide rate for states with favorable carry laws is 31% lower, and the robbery rate is 36% lower, than for states with restrictive concealed carry laws. States which have recently changed their laws have experienced reductions in homicide rates. Since 1987, when Florida enacted a favorable CCW law, its homicide rate has dropped 22%, even while the national rate has risen 15%. Only .007% of Florida CCW permits have been revoked because of a crime after licensure.

BIASED MEDIA POLLS DON'T TELL THE REAL STORY Media polls conducted by national polling firms frequently use biased questions and also limit the responses of those questioned. A Luntz Weber Research & Strategic Services poll reflects an accurate view of public opinion, using open ended questions which allow respondents to express their real opinions, rather than be directed toward a desired result. When given the opportunity to freely express themselves, Americans reveal that they do not believe that "gun control" is effective at fighting crime; they prefer criminal justice reform, stiffer penalties, better enforcement and solutions aimed at the core causes of crime. Some of the significant findings of the Luntz Weber survey are: Which of the following proposals do you believe would be more likely to reduce the number of violent crimes? Mandatory Prison 70% More Gun Control 25% What do you think is the most important cause of violent crime in the United States today? Drugs/Alcohol 36% Breakdown of Family Values 13% Poverty 8% Guns 8% Judicial System 5% In your opinion, what do you think is the single most important thing that can be done to help reduce violent crime in the United States today? Preventative programs 30% Prosecution/Penalties 20% Stronger Values 16% Better Enforcement 16% Gun Control 9% Other than for the police and military, all guns should be outlawed. Total Disagree 78% Total Agree 21% Strongly 58% Strongly 14% Somewhat 20% Somewhat 7% 12

LEADING CAUSES OF DEATH IN U.S. National Center for Health Statistics (latest data)

ALL CAUSES 2,169,518
Heart Disease 720,862
Cancers 514,657
Strokes 143,481
ACCIDENTS 89,347
Motor Vehicle 43,536
Falls 12,662
Poisoning (solid, liquid, gas) 6,434
Drowning (incl. water transport drownings) 4,685
Suffocation (mechanical, ingestion) 4,195
Fires and flames 4,120
Surgical/Medical misadventures* 2,473
Other Transportation (excl. drownings) 2,086
Natural/Environmental factors 1,453
Firearms 1,441
Chronic pulmonary diseases 90,650
Pneumonia and influenza 77,860
Diabetes 48,951
Suicide** 30,810
HIV Infections (AIDS) 29,555
Homicide and legal intervention*** 26,513
Cirrhosis and other liver diseases 25,429

* A Harvard University study suggests 93,000 deaths annually related to medical negligence, excluding tens of thousands more deaths from non- hospital medical office/lab mistakes and thousands of hospital caused infections.
** Approximately 60% involve firearms.
*** Approximately 60% involve firearms. Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck estimates 1,500-2,800 self-defense and justifiable homicides by civilians and 300-600 by police annually.

THE REAL CAUSE OF CRIME - AND REAL SOLUTIONS America fails to incarcerate violent criminals. In 1960, 738 criminals were sent to prison for every 1,000 violent crimes, but by 1980, the number of criminals sent to prison per 1,000 violent crimes dropped to 227, and the crime rate tripled. Over 60,000 criminals convicted of violent crime every year _ murder, rape, robbery or aggravated assault _ are not sent to prison. Of America's 4.3 million convicted criminals, only 26% are in prison. The remaining 74% are serving "sentences" of parole or probation, free on the streets. Since lower incarceration rates are mostly due to prison overcrowding, CrimeStrike lobbied successfully to increase prison capacity in Texas, Mississippi, Virginia and nearly tripled the funds allocated for state prison construction in the 1994 Federal Crime Bill. Criminals who are incarcerated are freed too early, serving on average only one-third of their sentences. The average time served is: for murder, 7.7 years; rape, 4.6 years; robbery 3.3 years; and aggravated assault,1.9 years. Every day in America, 14 people will be murdered, 48 women raped and 578 robbed by convicted criminals on parole or early release from prison. CrimeStrike helped win passage of Truth-In-Sentencing laws in Arizona, Mississippi and Virginia, preventing early release by requiring violent criminals to serve 85% of their sentences. Additionally, CrimeStrike blocked the paroles of individual murderers in Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Texas and West Virginia. Juvenile crime has reached crisis proportions: Between 1980 and 1990, the number of juveniles arrested for heroin/cocaine rose 713%. Over the last five years, juvenile gang killings increased 208%. Yet only 1.5% of juvenile offenders were sent to adult or criminal court in 1991 and, of those, 85.3% were not sent to prison. CrimeStrike helped win passage of juvenile justice reform in Arkansas and Mississippi, requiring violent juvenile criminals who do "adult crime" to serve "adult time." Crime victims, or their survivors, are often treated as mere witnesses in court, unfairly barred from participating in the criminal justice process in any way. CrimeStrike worked for passage of Victims' Bill of Rights proposals in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Missouri and New Mexico. Repeat offenders are a serious threat to public safety. The average criminal commits 187-287 crimes a year, resulting in over six million people becoming victims of violent crime _ murder, rape, robbery or aggravated assault _ every year. CrimeStrike was instrumental in helping Washington State Initiative 593, the nation's first "Three Strike, You're Out" law, qualify for the ballot and then win passage by the largest margin in state history. CrimeStrike also provided grassroots support for the California "Three Strikes" law, which also won at the polls.

U.S. COMPARED WITH FOREIGN COUNTRIES * All criminologists studying the firearms issue reject simple comparisons of violent crime among foreign countries. (James D. Wright, et. al ., Under the Gun, 1983) "Gun control does not deserve credit for the low crime rates in Britain, Japan, or other nations.... Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America; not only does it depend on search and seizure too intrusive for American standards, it postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government fundamentally at odds with the individual, egalitarian . . . American ethos." (David Kopel, "Foreign Gun Control in American Eyes," 1987)

* Gun laws and firearms availability are unrelated to homicide or suicide rates. Most states bordering Canada have homicide rates similar to their northern neighbors, despite much higher rates of firearms availability. While the American homicide rate is higher than most European nations, and firearms are frequently involved in American homicides, America's violent crime rates are even higher for crimes where guns are less often (robbery) or infrequently (rape) involved. The difference is violence, not firearms, and America's system of revolving door justice.

* England now has twice as many homicides with firearms as it did before adopting its repressive laws, yet its politicians have responded to rising crime by further restricting rifles and shotguns. During the past dozen years, handgun-related robbery has risen 200% in Britain, five times as fast as the rise in the U.S.

* Japan's low homicide rate is accompanied by a suicide rate much higher than that of the United States, despite Japan's virtual gun ban. And Japan's low crime rate is attributable to police-state type law enforcement which would be opposed by Americans.

* Anti-gunners' comparisons of homicide in Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., ignore the fact that non-Hispanic whites have a lower homicide rate in Seattle than in Vancouver, and that Vancouver's homicide rate, and handgun use in homicide, did not go down following Canada's adoption of a "tough" gun law.

SEMI-AUTOMATICS & SO-CALLED "ASSAULT WEAPONS"

* In a deliberate effort to have public policy made by deception, anti- gunners invented the "assault weapon" issue, noting that the public could not readily distinguish full-auto firearms _ sharply restricted by federal law since 1934 _ from semi-auto firearms. No legally-owned full auto firearm has ever been used in a violent crime by a civilian. Semi-autos are very difficult to convert to full auto and such conversion is a federal felony. Semi-autos which are "easy to convert" are not approved by the BATF for sale to the public.

* Data from states and big cities show that military look-alikes constitute 0-3% of guns used in crime and constitute only 1.5% of guns seized by police. Rifles, including semi-autos, are involved in only 3% of homicides.

* BATF traces tell nothing about the types of guns used by criminals, since only 1% of guns used in violent crimes are traced, and even that 1% is not randomly selected.(Congressional Research Service)

[Ssushi]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: You're facts are not facts, but misrepresentations that the anti-gun lobby certainly wants ignorant people to believe.

In 1996,
2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand,
15 in Japan,
106 in Canada,
213 in Germany, and
9,390 in the United States

These figures seem notmal to you? They support your argument?

[FBI Uniform Crime Report]

Also, nationmaster has no political agenda...

[Wolverine]

You might want to tae into account most of those murders are criminals killing criminals.

[Boneman]

And america's population is an aweful lot larger than all of those countries.

[perdidochas]

Ssushi wrote: Gun Facts

The following data is not per head of puulation but if you pro-rata the figures, still the US is way ahead in gun crime. I know the pro-gunners aren't going to agree with the data but please tell my why you think that your lives are safer than mine, just because you can own a gun for self defence...

I wouldn't say my life is safer than yours. Safety isn't the issue, liberty is. If it's a choice between liberty and safety, the American choice is (or was) liberty.


Ssushi wrote: My opinion: The more guns in society, the more the need to own one as defence. Hence in Europe, there is no need for people to own a gun. Please note, that gun crime is also affected by eduction, opportunity and society.

European society is different from American, primarily because the American character/temperament is different than the European character. America is a country of immigrants, which means that we are composed of the risk takers, the criminals, the religous fanatics, etc. of the rest of the world. You lost the people with those characteristics, we gained them.

Ssushi wrote: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gun-control

In 1996, 2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States. [FBI Uniform Crime Report]

If you look at the non-gun murder rate, you wouldn't find a whole lot different results. (also 1996 was at the start of a decline in gun crime after record highs in the early 1990s in the U.S., 1996 figures are a lot higher than 2004 figures)


Ssushi wrote: Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense. [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]

Kellerman's study has a lot of methodological flaws. One major one, IMHO is that fellow criminals are considered "friends." Another is that the control groups weren't representative of the experimental groups--in other words the households that had guns didn't have the same non-gun related characteristics that the households without guns.

[Ssushi]

Wolverine wrote: You might want to tae into account most of those murders are criminals killing criminals.

So why do so many americans justify their gun ownership by saying that they need guns to protect themselves?

[Ssushi]

Boneman wrote: And america's population is an aweful lot larger than all of those countries.

That's why I said that if you pro-rata the numbers, things still don't add up.

[Ssushi]

perdidochas wrote:
I wouldn't say my life is safer than yours. Safety isn't the issue, liberty is. If it's a choice between liberty and safety, the American choice is (or was) liberty.

I'm saying that you choose liberty over safety and that my life is safer than yours.


perdidochas wrote:

European society is different from American, primarily because the American character/temperament is different than the European character. America is a country of immigrants, which means that we are composed of the risk takers, the criminals, the religous fanatics, etc. of the rest of the world. You lost the people with those characteristics, we gained them.

That's very interesting, I hadn't considered that before in terms of the differences in our societies - nice point!

perdidochas wrote:
If you look at the non-gun murder rate, you wouldn't find a whole lot different results. (also 1996 was at the start of a decline in gun crime after record highs in the early 1990s in the U.S., 1996 figures are a lot higher than 2004 figures)

I don't have those figures, but the influence of these factors would have to be significant to bring the ratios into line, I think.

[TNBiologist]

Ssushi wrote: Gun Facts
My opinion: The more guns in society, the more the need to own one as defence. Hence in Europe, there is no need for people to own a gun. Please note, that gun crime is also affected by eduction, opportunity and society.

I'll answer these one at a time starting with your opinion section. There is now way that America can become disarmed even if the 2nd Ammendment wasn't there. It would envolve a house by house search of every home in America. Some law abidding people would turn their guns in but criminals would not and many law abiding citizens would not knowing that there would be no way to easily deffent family and home if they do. Yes Europe has lower gun criem due to them being almost completely outlawed but Europe also has more knife crime, as some American cities that have strict guns laws are starting to see. I personally do not want to see who is better with a knife, me or someone trying to do harm to my family. I would rather have the option of pulling a gun and trying to scare them off and if that doesn't work then shooting them in self-defense so I don't have to risk being stabbed trying to wrestle the knife away.
Link about a European Knife crime summit:
http://news.pipex.com/Pipex/News/Story_Page/0,13319,5337_1271730,00.html
CNN report from 5/31/06 on soaring knife crime in europe:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/31/britain.knives/

Ssushi wrote:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gun-control

In 1996, 2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States. [FBI Uniform Crime Report]

The UK has very strict guns laws but yet gun crime is soaring there. The criminals still have access to firearms but the general puplic does not leaving them defenseless against an armed robber or rapist.
BBC story about gun crime jumping up 35% in 2003 from previous year:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm
BBC sorty from 2004 stating that handgun crime is up by 40% 2 years after the weapons were banned completely. They also state that there were 3,685 crime comited with handguns in 2000 (after the ban):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

Ssushi wrote:
Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense. [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]

This source has been destroyed by other researches. The authors methods and his ethics have been questioned. Here are some of the papers publish by other researchers (not the nra or another pro-gun group):
Kleck "What are teh risk and benifits of keeping a gun in the home?". Journal Amer.Med.Ass. 5 Aug 1998.

Kates, Schafer, et al, "Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda?". Originally published as 61 Tenn. L. Rev. 513-596 (1994).

Peter Cummings; Thomas D. Koepsell, "Does Owning a Firearm Increase or Decrease the Risk of Death?", JAMA, August 5, 1998.

All of these state using evidence that the 43:1 ratio of bogus. I personally grew up in a house with guns and still have guns in my home today. most of my friends did as well. I have never known anyone that was killed by there own gun or had their own gun used against them. I have only known one person ever harmed by a firearm and he was a pediphile on parole that took his own life. By the way, it was illegal for him to own a gun as he was a fellon.

Ssushi wrote:
Every two years, more Americans die of gunshot than there were American soldiers killed during the entire Vietnam War [National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac].

There were 58,148 americans killed in Vietnam.
In 2003 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,136 gun deaths in the U.S:
16,907 suicides (56% of all U.S gun deaths),
11,920 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
730 unintentional shootings (2% of all U.S gun deaths),
347 from legal intervention and 232 from undetermined intent (2% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2006.

It looks like you are correct on the overall numbers but notice how 16,907 or 56% were SUICIDES. A person wanting to kill themself is going to do it with a rope or a knife if a gun is not avalible. Unitentional deaths count for 730 or 2% of deaths each year. The National Safety Council (NSC) states that there were 2900 deaths from drowning in 2003. Unitentional deaths though sad are going to happen. This leaves 11,920 (40%) homicide deaths by firearms which is far less than than the total number of deaths in Vietnam.

Ssushi wrote:
In homes with guns, a member of the household is almost three times as likely to be the victim of a homicide compared to gun-free homes. Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home." NEJM 329:15 (1993):1084-1091.

This counters your own statement made about the 43:1 ratio. You cannot have it both ways. Please choose one of these numbers and stick with it.

Ssushi wrote:
• In 2001, firearms were used to murder 6 people in New Zealand, 56 in Japan, 96 in Great Britain, 168 in Canada, and 331 in Germany United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2001-2002).
As shown earlier there are 347 shooting by police in the US every year. (Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2006) So yes we have more gun deaths every year than these countries but look at population difference. According to the US State Department US population is 298,982,859. Germany has a population of 82,431,390. That is 3.6 times as many people.

Ssushi wrote:
In 2003, there were only 163 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in the United States FBI Uniform Crime Report, 2003, table 2.16, p. 24.

Your number states justifiable homicides. The law, at least were I live also has a self defense provision so if you shoot someone that is attacking you it is not even ruled justifiable homicide. As far as I can tell any thing that fell under that statute of the law are not included in your number let alone the number of times simply the sight of the gun has scared the "bad guy" off. Here are some links going into use of a firearm for defense without firing:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-284.html
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html
http://www.jpfo.org/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

[Onevote]

Ssushi wrote: Wolverine wrote: You might want to tae into account most of those murders are criminals killing criminals.

So why do so many americans justify their gun ownership by saying that they need guns to protect themselves? Some people do! Why do you need insurance of any kind? Just in case, right! There are many reasons to own guns, Certain kinds make a very good investment, they can be fun to just plink with at the range. Would you fare better during a home invasion if you were armed than if you weren't? While there are no guarantees that a gun would save your life during such a case, it makes the odds alot better for you.

If what we are really talking about is the number of people killed, why aren't we talking about Alcohol, tobacco or automobiles? After all any of the three kill far more people per year than do firearms and none are a requirement to live your life.

[Wolverine]

Ssushi wrote: Wolverine wrote: You might want to tae into account most of those murders are criminals killing criminals.

So why do so many americans justify their gun ownership by saying that they need guns to protect themselves?
Why do people wear seatbelts? Same reason as owing a firearm or firearms, just in case.

[OneZero]

Ssushi wrote: perdidochas wrote:
I wouldn't say my life is safer than yours. Safety isn't the issue, liberty is. If it's a choice between liberty and safety, the American choice is (or was) liberty.

I'm saying that you choose liberty over safety and that my life is safer than yours.


Without liberty what good is life?

Benjamin Franklin wrote: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[perdidochas]

Ssushi wrote: perdidochas wrote:
I wouldn't say my life is safer than yours. Safety isn't the issue, liberty is. If it's a choice between liberty and safety, the American choice is (or was) liberty.

I'm saying that you choose liberty over safety and that my life is safer than yours.

Your life probably isn't much safer than mine. I live outside a city in a low crime neighborhood. I work at the outskirts of that city. I don't do drugs or deal with people who do. I'm fairly well off. I have very few risk factors that make my life unsafe. However, thankfully, I didn't have to give up liberty for the safety that I do have.

Ssushi wrote:
perdidochas wrote:

European society is different from American, primarily because the American character/temperament is different than the European character. America is a country of immigrants, which means that we are composed of the risk takers, the criminals, the religous fanatics, etc. of the rest of the world. You lost the people with those characteristics, we gained them.

That's very interesting, I hadn't considered that before in terms of the differences in our societies - nice point!

perdidochas wrote:
If you look at the non-gun murder rate, you wouldn't find a whole lot different results. (also 1996 was at the start of a decline in gun crime after record highs in the early 1990s in the U.S., 1996 figures are a lot higher than 2004 figures)

I don't have those figures, but the influence of these factors would have to be significant to bring the ratios into line, I think.

Well, looking at the non-gun murder rate, it was 2.0 per 100k in the U.S. in 2003 according to the CDC's Wisquars database. According to the British home office, the 2003/2004 TOTAL murder rate in Great Britain was 1.3 per 100k. Our non-gun murders are higher than your total murders.

[OneZero]

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.
--- Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.
--- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;
---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.

[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

source

Thomas Jefferson: "The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."

John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." (3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

Noah Webster: "The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops" (Noah Webster, 1787)

George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent Chronicle.)

Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights: "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."

Patrick Henry: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."

Thomas Paine: "...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."

Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates at 185)

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[dkong911]

Ssushi wrote: I'm saying that you choose liberty over safety and that my life is safer than yours.

Assuming that statement was true...

There is a famous American saying, originating with a Revolutionary war veteran, and is now the state motto of New Hampshire:

Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.

Perhaps that has no meaning to you. That is simply what happens when you cross the Atlantic, I guess.

I'm saying that you choose safety over liberty and that I'm damn glad I'm over here in America.

I'm not saying that your beliefs are wrong, or that you do not have the freedom to hold those beliefs. There is no changing the fundamental beliefs of two nations who are completely different.

[Ssushi]

I don't have time to respond to all the posters on this thread atm, but just to say that I'm glad that the thread is generating some reasonable discussion.

The main thing I get from this so far is that a gun seems to be to you guys a symbol of liberty and freedom. But let me post on my liberties and freedoms:

1) I am free to walk to the end of my road and openly buy cannabis, and then smoke it.

2) I am free to drink beer at 16.

3) My government cannot tap my phone calls, or create a database of who's calling who.

4) People are not finger printed on entering my country.

The point? Not to say that the liberties that I have a greater than yours but to inform you that america does not have the definitive set of liberties.

[Aqualung]

Ssushi wrote: Gun Facts

The following data is not per head of puulation but if you pro-rata the figures, still the US is way ahead in gun crime. I know the pro-gunners aren't going to agree with the data but please tell my why you think that your lives are safer than mine, just because you can own a gun for self defence...

My opinion: The more guns in society, the more the need to own one as defence. Hence in Europe, there is no need for people to own a gun. Please note, that gun crime is also affected by eduction, opportunity and society.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gun-control

In 1996, 2 people were murdered by handguns in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 106 in Canada, 213 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States. [FBI Uniform Crime Report]


Guns kept in the home for self-protection are 43 times more likely to kill a family member or friend than to kill in self-defense. [ Kellermann and Reay, N.E. Journal of Medicine]


Every two years, more Americans die of gunshot than there were American soldiers killed during the entire Vietnam War [National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac].


In homes with guns, a member of the household is almost three times as likely to be the victim of a homicide compared to gun-free homes. Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home." NEJM 329:15 (1993):1084-1091.


• In 2001, firearms were used to murder 6 people in New Zealand, 56 in Japan, 96 in Great Britain, 168 in Canada, and 331 in Germany United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2001-2002).


In comparison, firearms were used to murder 11,348 in the United States WISQARS, Injury Mortality Reports.


In 2003, there were only 163 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in the United States FBI Uniform Crime Report, 2003, table 2.16, p. 24.
I started a thread a while back that asked what creates criminals. I'd be interested in debating this premise that Guns create criminals. You seem to be arguing that without guns, nobody would be murdered. I, on the other hand, believe people will be murdered regardless. If a gun is there, use it. IF a knife is there, they'll use that. If a pillow is there, they'll use that.

[OneZero]

CrossEyedMary wrote:
I started a thread a while back that asked what creates criminals. I'd be interested in debating this premise that Guns create criminals. You seem to be arguing that without guns, nobody would be murdered. I, on the other hand, believe people will be murdered regardless. If a gun is there, use it. IF a knife is there, they'll use that. If a pillow is there, they'll use that.

[Ssushi]

OneZero wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote:
I started a thread a while back that asked what creates criminals. I'd be interested in debating this premise that Guns create criminals. You seem to be arguing that without guns, nobody would be murdered. I, on the other hand, believe people will be murdered regardless. If a gun is there, use it. IF a knife is there, they'll use that. If a pillow is there, they'll use that.

Two children walk into school, they're outcasts and resentful. Unbeknown to their peers, they've amassed an array of sharp knives and intend to use them.

Three children were cut and needed plastic surgery.

OK I made this up. But you could read up on the Columbine High School massacre; killing 12 fellow students and a teacher, as well as wounding 24 others... This would be unlikely to have happened to this degree with knives...