Political Crossfire Forums

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

I went backtracing threads in this section and I found a very interesting one by sailor moon.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39259

In the beginning of this thread there are repeated references to what a fetus looks like as being the reason you would not abort one. Theres also references that say that is why it is ok to abort an embryo. Im wondering why its so hard to understand that young humans dont look anything like us or have any of the abilities we have, and why does that make it easier for you to kill such young and immature human beings?

Im wondering why the video of fetus being slaughtered is so much more emotional than an embryo being aborted? Shouldnt an embryo be MORE emotional? As it is younger than the fetus? How young someone is is often pointed out when a born human dies young, yet in the womb it seems to serve merely as a point to devalue that human being.

To me this constant effort to dehumanize people when they are newly conceived is no different than labeling blacks 2/3 a person or women inferior to men. All of it is hypocrisy, and ignorance to the scientific fact that we are all human beings.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

I hadnt watched the video even before posting this, and now that Ive seen it I firmly believe all pro abortionists need to witness it.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

AllAmericanMan wrote: I hadnt watched the video even before posting this, and now that Ive seen it I firmly believe all pro abortionists need to witness it. I don't know any pro-abortionists. I know a lot of pro-choice people though.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

UrielsFyre wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: I hadnt watched the video even before posting this, and now that Ive seen it I firmly believe all pro abortionists need to witness it. I don't know any pro-abortionists. I know a lot of pro-choice people though. Everyone is pro choice, I am pro choice. Abortion is ending a human life, not a choice.

Knight · Joined: 09 Jun 2005 Posts: 663

Pro-choice and not for abortion? What is 'pro-choice' then?

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Knight wrote: Pro-choice and not for abortion? What is 'pro-choice' then? Pro freedom? Pro liberty? Pro democracy? It could mean a whole bunch of things in a whole bunch of situations. Its such an innacurate term in this debate though. We arent limiting anyones reproductive rights, or their choice to have sex. All that were saying is you can not kill human beings. That is not anti choice that is anti abortion. "Pro choice" people refuse to account for their decisions to engage in sex, which directly produces the offspring. One might say, they are anti choice.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

AllAmericanMan wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: I hadnt watched the video even before posting this, and now that Ive seen it I firmly believe all pro abortionists need to witness it. I don't know any pro-abortionists. I know a lot of pro-choice people though. Everyone is pro choice, I am pro choice. Abortion is ending a human life, not a choice. But, the term "pro-abortion" gives the mistaken impression that we are advocating abortion. As if we are telling women that they SHOULD have abortions.

The term "pro-choice" is a term used to describe those people who believe a woman should have a choice to have an abortion or not.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

Knight wrote: Pro-choice and not for abortion? What is 'pro-choice' then?
No, I'm not "for abortion." I find it to be a horrible act and a choice that no woman should ever make. However, I still feel she should have the right to make that choice, no matter how much I disagree with her choice.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

UrielsFyre wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: I hadnt watched the video even before posting this, and now that Ive seen it I firmly believe all pro abortionists need to witness it. I don't know any pro-abortionists. I know a lot of pro-choice people though. Everyone is pro choice, I am pro choice. Abortion is ending a human life, not a choice. But, the term "pro-abortion" gives the mistaken impression that we are advocating abortion. As if we are telling women that they SHOULD have abortions.

The term "pro-choice" is a term used to describe those people who believe a woman should have a choice to have an abortion or not.
Its no different than calling for the legalization of murder and calling yourself pro choice. Both involve the death of human beings and shouldnt be so casually labeled a matter of liberty. Its extremely more complex than that. Rather the term pro abortion simply means you advocate the legal right for women to persue such an option. Anti abortion means you do not. Pro choice is a faulty argument designed to turn the debate from what it really is, into a matter of a womans body, which it is not. It is a matter of a newly concieved human beings life, or death. Life or death, much more imprtant than a man and womans desire to have sex for pleasure without feer of consequence.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

If I could get an answer to my origonal post that would be great. As usual the hardest questions I put forth are ignored. As is the case with my origonal post in "Its NOT your body".

Izzibeth · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 423

UrielsFyre wrote: Knight wrote: Pro-choice and not for abortion? What is 'pro-choice' then?
No, I'm not "for abortion." I find it to be a horrible act and a choice that no woman should ever make. However, I still feel she should have the right to make that choice, no matter how much I disagree with her choice.

calling pro-choicers "pro-abortionists" is simply a cheap way of demonizing your views. there is all kinds of word twisting and double-speak in order to make you feel like you are/or to paint you as an immoral person for believing that a woman should have a choice in the matter. "pro-abortion" = demonizing term. it's as simple as that.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Izzibeth wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Knight wrote: Pro-choice and not for abortion? What is 'pro-choice' then?
No, I'm not "for abortion." I find it to be a horrible act and a choice that no woman should ever make. However, I still feel she should have the right to make that choice, no matter how much I disagree with her choice.

calling pro-choicers "pro-abortionists" is simply a cheap way of demonizing your views. there is all kinds of word twisting and double-speak in order to make you feel like you are/or to paint you as an immoral person for believing that a woman should have a choice in the matter. "pro-abortion" = demonizing term. it's as simple as that. If you advocate women to have the legal right for abortion you are pro abortion. Plain and simple. Doesnt mean you like abortions it says nothing to the fact. It simply means you are arguing for abortions in the legal sense. Pro choice is a demonizing term to the other side, and is an innacurate portrayal of the debate.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

AllAmericanMan wrote: If I could get an answer to my origonal post that would be great. As usual the hardest questions I put forth are ignored. As is the case with my origonal post in "Its NOT your body".
Okay, I will answer your original post.

I don't care if the unborn looks human or looks like a blob of cells. My stance has nothing to do with that. My belief is that until such time that the unborn can survive independently of the biological processes of the mother, then that baby/fetus/embryo/unborn human has no rights and the rights of the mother must be paramount. Those rights include the right to determine what happens within her own body, regardless of the previous decisions she made.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

AllAmericanMan wrote: Izzibeth wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Knight wrote: Pro-choice and not for abortion? What is 'pro-choice' then?
No, I'm not "for abortion." I find it to be a horrible act and a choice that no woman should ever make. However, I still feel she should have the right to make that choice, no matter how much I disagree with her choice.

calling pro-choicers "pro-abortionists" is simply a cheap way of demonizing your views. there is all kinds of word twisting and double-speak in order to make you feel like you are/or to paint you as an immoral person for believing that a woman should have a choice in the matter. "pro-abortion" = demonizing term. it's as simple as that. If you advocate women to have the legal right for abortion you are pro abortion. Plain and simple. Doesnt mean you like abortions it says nothing to the fact. It simply means you are arguing for abortions in the legal sense. Pro choice is a demonizing term to the other side, and is an innacurate portrayal of the debate.
Yeah, and pro-life is a term that is demonizing to the other side as it paints the picture that we are against life and have no respect for life. (Whether you personally believe that to be true or not is inconsequential).

The point is that the terms pro-life and pro-choice are the socially accepted terms to describe each sides stance on abortion. It is not confusing nor misleading people know exactly what those terms are describing.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

UrielsFyre wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: If I could get an answer to my origonal post that would be great. As usual the hardest questions I put forth are ignored. As is the case with my origonal post in "Its NOT your body".
Okay, I will answer your original post.

I don't care if the unborn looks human or looks like a blob of cells. My stance has nothing to do with that. My belief is that until such time that the unborn can survive independently of the biological processes of the mother, then that baby/fetus/embryo/unborn human has no rights and the rights of the mother must be paramount. Those rights include the right to determine what happens within her own body, regardless of the previous decisions she made. But WHY do you believe that? There is obviously some fundamental issue with the unborn that makes them easier to kill. I don't believe its just because the fetus is dependent on the mothers biological process. There has to be something more to allow 1.5 million human beings to be killed ever year, if not at least on the subconscious level.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

AllAmericanMan wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: If I could get an answer to my origonal post that would be great. As usual the hardest questions I put forth are ignored. As is the case with my origonal post in "Its NOT your body".
Okay, I will answer your original post.

I don't care if the unborn looks human or looks like a blob of cells. My stance has nothing to do with that. My belief is that until such time that the unborn can survive independently of the biological processes of the mother, then that baby/fetus/embryo/unborn human has no rights and the rights of the mother must be paramount. Those rights include the right to determine what happens within her own body, regardless of the previous decisions she made. But WHY do you believe that? There is obviously some fundamental issue with the unborn that makes them easier to kill. I don't believe its just because the fetus is dependent on the mothers biological process. There has to be something more to allow 1.5 million human beings to be killed ever year, if not at least on the subconscious level.
I believe that because it is the only logical stance, in my opinion. You disagree, and consider my stance to be illogical. Fine. Like I said in another thread, every single thread in this whole Abortion forum comes down to the same arguments over and over again while no ground is gained by either side. We sit here, day after day, month after month, and insult each other's stance on the issue, explain our own stance over and over again, and still get nowhere.

You want to convince me you are right and that from the moment of conception the unborn child is deserving of protection and the right to life. I disagree, and will likely never agree.

I want to convince you that an embryo/fetus has no right to life until such time that they can actually live without the biological processes of another person sustaining them. You disagree, and likely will never agree.

So, what do we do? We continue to go around and around on this. It is really tiring, to be honest.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

I still believe the vast differences between an embryo and adult human are what lead to the pro abortionist point of view. Its human nature to dehumanize an embryo as a parasite, blob of cells, plant seed and every other thing it has been called here on these forums. Humans in general do not have the capacity to feel compassion and respect for anything different from themselves. Such is the case when you get someone to agree that an embryo is a human life, but we should still have the "right" to kill it. It is more obvious in those cases, but is always the dominant factor in those who dehumanize the young at every step in the debate.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Has everyone especially the pro choice people here seen the video im refering to in the above post?

greeneye · Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:04 am Post subject:

UrielsFyre wrote: I want to convince you that an embryo/fetus has no right to life until such time that they can actually live without the biological processes of another person sustaining them. You disagree, and likely will never agree.

So, what do we do? We continue to go around and around on this. It is really tiring, to be honest.

Yes, it is indeed a circular, sad and exhausting argument.

But just as you seem to believe (from your other posts) that people's views and morality changes based upon a given set of circumstances and changing times and conditions.... it is interesting to note that the current younger generation of college students across this country, which I am somewhat connected to, have different views and opinions than their parents on the issue of abortion. Many of them are pro-life, want a ban on the abortion (and/or strong restrictions) and are educated about the issue. http://www.boundless.org/2002_2003/features/a0000703.html

Since this is the group of people that will be leading the country in the not-to-distant future, perhaps all the millions of words expressed through debates and arguments that have littered the web boards, radio and TV stations over this issue in the last decade has not been in vain. Maybe circular --- but not in vain.

It seems this group has it right. (And yes .... right according to my opinion)

Saf · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 377

Not a sentient being, not a life, goodbye thread.