Political Crossfire Forums

[Izzibeth]

just thought i would throw this information out there for those who haven't heard it.

apparently Ohio is attempting to ban all abortion in their state. these would include abortions which would terminate pregnancy caused by:

*incest
*rape

and would also include abortions which would save the life of the mother.
this bill would also make it illegal for a woman to cross state lines in order to have an abortion and would also criminalize aiding a woman to leave the state to have an abortion.
here is a site with more information:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/933396251?ltl=1150220401

now... i find this to be disgusting and unbelievable. it is such an extreme bill and i would hope that it would not be passed. if it is, i hope that women stand together to make sure it is repealed and does not spread. this is the most extreme Anti-Abortion Bill i have seen in this country so far. it's actually quite scary.

[Enoch]

While I am hardly a legal expert, how can that law get through? It appears to undermine Roe v Wade.

[Revenant]

Gotta love my crappy home state, worst ever :lol:

[Snarf]

Excellent! May every anti-abortion nutjob get their states to pass laws just this plain damn dumb as soon as possible. That will be a perfectly acceptable way to make early abortion legal in all cases as nothing makes for better news than a few pretty, nubile, and dead young women. Bring 'em on and let's get the fight over and done with.

Those states that pass bills like this will see their teenagers not walk, but run from the Fascists for Life...

[Izzibeth]

UrielsFyre wrote: While I am hardly a legal expert, how can that law get through? It appears to undermine Roe v Wade.

right. it will only be put in effect if Roe v. Wade is overturned... but look at the SC right now. who knows if it will be overturned. but it's not out of the question....

[alclarkey]

Izzibeth wrote: just thought i would throw this information out there for those who haven't heard it.

apparently Ohio is attempting to ban all abortion in their state. these would include abortions which would terminate pregnancy caused by:

*incest
*rape

and would also include abortions which would save the life of the mother.
this bill would also make it illegal for a woman to cross state lines in order to have an abortion and would also criminalize aiding a woman to leave the state to have an abortion.
here is a site with more information:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/933396251?ltl=1150220401

now... i find this to be disgusting and unbelievable. it is such an extreme bill and i would hope that it would not be passed. if it is, i hope that women stand together to make sure it is repealed and does not spread. this is the most extreme Anti-Abortion Bill i have seen in this country so far. it's actually quite scary.

Question #1

Is a baby conceived during rape or incest less human than one conceived through consentual non-incestual sex?

Question #2

Is a baby conceived during rape or incest responsible for the crime that caused its conception?

Question #3

Does killing that life growing inside you somehow make the memory of that rape or incest go away?

Concession:

If indeed this bill didn't have an exception for the life of the mother, I would oppose it until the prudent sections are ammended. And I think it would probably be amended before it passed.

[name]

Quote: Question #1

Is a baby conceived during rape or incest less human than one conceived through consentual non-incestual sex?

No. They are both human.

Quote: Question #2

Is a baby conceived during rape or incest responsible for the crime that caused its conception?

No. But it cannot be separated from the crime. It is the direct result of the rape. It is a further infringement on the mother's rights and body coming from the rape; thus it is an extension of the rape. The rapist is the only one at fault, thus the rapist is responsible for the embryo. If the mother chooses to abort the embryo, the rapist is at fault; the rapist is the one who chose to put it there.

Quote: Question #3

Does killing that life growing inside you somehow make the memory of that rape or incest go away?

For most, the memory of a rape NEVER goes away. The psychological harm can be extensive to the point of suicidal tendencies and even the loss of grip on reality. Consider the victim; imagine being raped. At the very least, it is objectification to an extreme, but in truth all forcible rape is torture. And in the aftermath, rape can turn you and your entire life inside out. Also, remember that there are many forms of sadistic rape; it's not always as simple as one man forcibly raping a woman with his penis, although that is horrible enough. It is arguably the most vile thing you can do to another individual. Being forced to carry the result of the rape can cause or worsen the psychological effects of the crime. Aborting the embryo would not make the memory go away, but an abortion might be the only chance a woman has to keep the crime from destroying her life. The rape may be attached to the woman for the rest of her life unless she discreetly aborts the embryo and tries to move on.

Quote: Concession:

If indeed this bill didn't have an exception for the life of the mother, I would oppose it until the prudent sections are ammended. And I think it would probably be amended before it passed.

How about health of the mother? In South America, one extremely anti-abortion nation prohibited abortions for the health of the mother. Women with ectopic pregnancies were forced to wait and see whether the embryo would die on its own, or rupture the organ in which it was implanted, usually the fallopian tube, all because of some fanatical 'sanctity of life' ideal gone overboard. What if the mother was going to end up brain-dead or brain-damaged, and abortion was her only chance?

[alclarkey]

name wrote: Quote: Question #1

Is a baby conceived during rape or incest less human than one conceived through consentual non-incestual sex?

No. They are both human.

Quote: Question #2

Is a baby conceived during rape or incest responsible for the crime that caused its conception?

No. But it cannot be separated from the crime. It is the direct result of the rape. It is a further infringement on the mother's rights and body coming from the rape; thus it is an extension of the rape.
Ahh... thats what all those adults who were the result of a rape are, an extension of a rape. Somebody has to tell them, you go ahead.

name wrote: The rapist is the only one at fault, thus the rapist is responsible for the embryo. If the mother chooses to abort the embryo, the rapist is at fault; the rapist is the one who chose to put it there.
The rapist did choose to put it there, however if she kills it, she is now a murderer, you can't blame your own actions on someone else.

Quote: Question #3

Does killing that life growing inside you somehow make the memory of that rape or incest go away?

name wrote: For most, the memory of a rape NEVER goes away. The psychological harm can be extensive to the point of suicidal tendencies and even the loss of grip on reality. Consider the victim; imagine being raped. At the very least, it is objectification to an extreme, but in truth all forcible rape is torture. And in the aftermath, rape can turn you and your entire life inside out. Also, remember that there are many forms of sadistic rape; it's not always as simple as one man forcibly raping a woman with his penis, although that is horrible enough. It is arguably the most vile thing you can do to another individual. Being forced to carry the result of the rape can cause or worsen the psychological effects of the crime.
Think again Kemosabe. The act of murdering a life inside you will drive a good # of women to distraction, and some of those to suicide. It usually happens about 10 years after an abortion. But it happens.

name wrote: Aborting the embryo would not make the memory go away, but an abortion might be the only chance a woman has to keep the crime from destroying her life.
No keeping the child is the only way to avoid destroying her life.

name wrote: The rape may be attached to the woman for the rest of her life unless she discreetly aborts the embryo and tries to move on.
With a good support group, a woman can heal from a rape over time. Murdering her child will be MUCH more difficult, to get over. If she keeps, she will love it, and that child will bring some light onto a dark situation.

name wrote: Quote: Concession:

If indeed this bill didn't have an exception for the life of the mother, I would oppose it until the prudent sections are ammended. And I think it would probably be amended before it passed.

How about health of the mother? In South America, one extremely anti-abortion nation prohibited abortions for the health of the mother.
Abortions are just as damaging to a woman's health as birth. And that is in America. Consider how much worse they would be in Africa with poorly trained doctors? Birth is the safer way to go as it is the more natural way to go.

name wrote: Women with ectopic pregnancies were forced to wait and see whether the embryo would die on its own, or rupture the organ in which it was implanted, usually the fallopian tube, all because of some fanatical 'sanctity of life' ideal gone overboard. What if the mother was going to end up brain-dead or brain-damaged, and abortion was her only chance?
Like have said previously I support a termination in the event that the mother would die if she brought the child to term, the chance of the baby suriving where the mother does not is very slim.

[Izzibeth]

you can not form an educated opinion on what it would be like to carry a child from a human being who forced himself on you if you are not a woman. i'm sorry. but you can not.
unless you ARE a woman you can not even IMAGINE what it would be like to have someone force themself on you.. and then.. find out that a piece of that person is growing inside of you. feeding off of you. no. the male opinion in this specific case matters not at all.
if i were raped by someone... the fact that it is the most intrusive and violating action that could possibly be taken on my person could be enough to ruin my life. then... to find out weeks later, after you are attempting to get over what has happened to you and deal with it... to find out that a living thing that is half of the man who forced himself inside of me is feeding, growing, living inside of me... you can not EXPECT someone to carry that burden. to live with a constant reminder of that rape.. to allow it to use my body. now... there are many different situations (e.g. raped by boyfriend, raped by husband, raped by family member, raped by stranger, raped by friend, raped by acquaintance, etc.) and some women, who are, say, raped by someone they once loved (or perhaps still do..) may choose to keep the child because the connection to that person, although they raped them.. is much different than someone who is raped by a complete stranger and then impregnated by that person. not all babies conceived of rape are a constant reminder of that rape (say.. if they are the result of a rape from a husband or boyfriend). but there are some that are... and being forced to carry that child until it is born would be incredibly psychologically damaging. INCREDIBLY.

but... even if abortion was illegal, if a woman were raped by a stranger, found out she was pregnant as a result and did not want to keep the child, she would most definitely use any means possible to abort that pregnancy. you could call her a murderer all you would like.. but the fact of the matter is she had someone force himself on her for, oh, perhaps 5 minutes even.. and just when she thought it was all over.. she finds out that for the next 10 months of her life she will have part of him STILL inside of her.. STILL violating her. only a woman can truly relate to what that experience could be like. and i don't think many women out there would force another woman to endure such a thing. it's disgusting. and it is torture for 10 months. unnecessary.

[Carlin]

Yeah, this just isn't practical. But the thing is, the supreme court is not going to overturn Roe V. Wade no matter how "conservative" the bench may look. The civil unrest this would create will villify our government as anti-freedom, anti-choice pricks. Bush doesn't want Roe V. Wade overturned and Republicans don't either. It's a great issue to run on and be against, then promptly do absolutely nothing about. But if it actually were overturned they'd have to justify it and that's just no fun.

If it were overturned and some states didn't allow it, then we'd have a class issue. The rich in Texas and Alabama would have no problem traveling north for the weekend to abort, while the poor who can barely take care of themselves will be forced to give birth and have a miserable life in the dirt because of it.

[Izzibeth]

Carlin wrote: Yeah, this just isn't practical. But the thing is, the supreme court is not going to overturn Roe V. Wade no matter how "conservative" the bench may look. The civil unrest this would create will villify our government as anti-freedom, anti-choice pricks. Bush doesn't want Roe V. Wade overturned and Republicans don't either. It's a great issue to run on and be against, then promptly do absolutely nothing about. But if it actually were overturned they'd have to justify it and that's just no fun.

If it were overturned and some states didn't allow it, then we'd have a class issue. The rich in Texas and Alabama would have no problem traveling north for the weekend to abort, while the poor who can barely take care of themselves will be forced to give birth and have a miserable life in the dirt because of it.

well, i agree, though i will say that things would just end up as they were before Roe v. Wade with underground abortion clinics. and now, with all we know and all of the options available for women, i believe there would absolutely not be a shortage of places, as illegal as they would be, for women to go if they wanted to terminate their pregnancy.

[Plodder]

Quote: right. it will only be put in effect if Roe v. Wade is overturned... but look at the SC right now. who knows if it will be overturned. but it's not out of the question.... actually no. A state has the jurisdiction to do whatever it wishes as long as it is not in direct violation to the constitution. eg a state can ban freedom of speech but it cannot make a treaty with china. Thge bill of rights is the things that government cannot prohibit you from having. Quote: Yeah, this just isn't practical. But the thing is, the supreme court is not going to overturn Roe V. Wade no matter how "conservative" the bench may look. The civil unrest this would create will villify our government as anti-freedom, anti-choice pricks. Bush doesn't want Roe V. Wade overturned and Republicans don't either. It's a great issue to run on and be against, then promptly do absolutely nothing about. But if it actually were overturned they'd have to justify it and that's just no fun. I actually agree on the point that Republicans do not want to have roe over turneed. But I do disagree with the fact that the SC will overturn Roe. Quote: incredibly psychologically damaging. INCREDIBLY.
proof please. Quote: but... even if abortion was illegal, if a woman were raped by a stranger, found out she was pregnant as a result and did not want to keep the child, she would most definitely use any means possible to abort that pregnancy if she had common sense she would have the baby the put it up for adoption then forget about it. Quote: life she will have part of him STILL inside of her.. STILL violating her I pity that woman that belives that the baby inside of her is actually harming her. Quote: and it is torture for 10 months. unnecessary. Killing a baby. EVIL.