Political Crossfire Forums

[ZakThePhilosopher]

I live in Washington DC, and most of us on this forum are from the US or other developed countries. Compared to millions of Bangladeshis, Burundians or Indians, even a man living in an American homeless shelter is rich.

In the 21st century, the system of international (and domestic) inequality is sustained by neoliberal business, by a growing trend towards exploitation of the global poor by multinational corporations who return all of their profits to the developed world. The governments to which we pay taxes (of course this applies especially to Americans) are ususally involved in unequal deals between MNC's and other countries. Sometimes the international institutions that are largely supported by Americans, like the World Bank and IMF, cooperate with government and business to armlock these poorer countries.

MNC's also exploit on a low level by employing peasants in factories for measly working conditions and sometimes with nauseating human rights violations. We Americans buy products that are produced by foreigners being given measly salaries and often in despicable and illegal working conditions. Big businesses willingness to exploit the poor wherever there are not laws to protect them.

While enjoying a blossoming public park in my fair city, it occured to me to ask whether I was somehow implicated in this system. I'm not an MNC employee or a big shopper or a legislator, but all of my parents' paychecks trickle down from MNC's. I buy tofu MNC's at the grocery store, courdoroys at GAP, etc.

I have a guilt complex. 25,000 people die of hunger every day. Americans spend 8,000,000,000 dollars a year on cosmetics. It would cost 9,000,000,000 to provide clean drinking water and basic sanitation to the whole world. (UN, Noreena Hertz's The Silent Takeover)

What do you fine people think is our level of responsability in this issue of global inequality? Do you think that, as birthright members of the top of the totem pole, we have an obligation to do something about inequality? At one extreme is donating all belongings and money and moving into a hut with a Hoarani family in Ecuador. Or we could do nothing. Or give to charity and protest for human rights.

How did you vote below?

(If you are not from a developed country or the assumptions I made above don't describe you, please don't take offense. I just want to reach a large number of people on the forum. Please post and state how your background affects your opinion.)

Please be sure to state your thoughts about your responsability or lack thereof to do something about global inequality.

Thanks

[thefranzkafkafront]

I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations.

No one forces these countries to take the loans, its not like we lie about the intrest rate before hands, and theres no point blaming mutli national corprations, just look at what said evil corprations have done to the tiger economies of the far east.

The 3rd world nations need to stop blaming eveyone else, as well as the self styled savoirs of the world such as bono need to stop blaming western goverments, and see that problem isunt us, its the goverments of these nations.

Im sorry its a cold hard fact.

And I think you'll find most of the parts your computers made out of are from indutralising countires that are working their own way out of poverty such a malayasia and indonesia.

As for my background.
Im the product of a hard days work, a two generations ago my family were beating hot iron for a leaving outside of glasgow, great grandfather got his act together, sent his son off to school who subsequently became a banker, sent his sons off to school ones a professor, the others a historical conservatist and my fathers a fincial banker. I plan to pick up where they left off.

Meritocracy works.

[Katsumoto]

ZakThePhilosopher wrote: I live in Washington DC, and most of us on this forum are from the US or other developed countries. Compared to millions of Bangladeshis, Burundians or Indians, even a man living in an American homeless shelter is rich.

In the 21st century, the system of international (and domestic) inequality is sustained by economics, by a growing trend towards exploitation of the global poor by multinational corporations who return all of their profits to the developed world. The governments to which we pay taxes (of course this applies especially to Americans) are ususally involved in unequal deals between MNC's and other countries. Sometimes the international institutions that are largely supported by Americans, like the World Bank and IMF, cooperate with government and business to armlock these poorer countries.

International inequality is sustained by governments and the barriers they place on free trade. Regardless of where profits go, “exploitation” as you call it (a.k.a. employment) of cheap workers in developing countries is extremely beneficial for all parties involved. The worker has a job that while by our standards may seem exploitive, is none-the-less a very good job relative to other jobs available to those workers. The last century has shown that yesterdays sources of cheap labor become tomorrows emerging first world economies. One need only look at Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and most recently China and South East Asia to see the dramatic improvements in quality of life enjoyed by these countries.

Quote: MNC's also exploit on a low level by employing peasants in factories for measly working conditions and sometimes with nauseating human rights violations. We Americans buy products that are produced by foreigners being given measly salaries and often in despicable and illegal working conditions. Big businesses willingness to exploit the poor wherever there are not laws to protect them.

You cannot impose first world standards on third world economies. Those measly salaries and terrible working conditions are often better than any alternative these people have. In the end it is a choice for them to work for these companies or not, no one is dragging them to the factories in chains. You see them as poor exploited individuals, but have you ever wondered how they see themselves??

You can not just pay them an American minimum wage with benefits and 401k’s and not expect that to disastrously effect their economies. Every Doctor, Nurse, Teacher, Scientist, Inventor etc. will flock to Nike to make shoes leaving the poor unskilled workers with No job AND no services.

Quote: While enjoying a blossoming public park in my fair city, it occured to me to ask whether I was somehow implicated in this system. I'm not an MNC employee or a big shopper or a legislator, but all of my parents' paychecks trickle down from MNC's. I buy tofu MNC's at the grocery store, courdoroys at GAP, etc.

Your purchases HELP those people, not hurt them, by not buying you would just diminish the demand for their labor.

Quote: I have a guilt complex. 25,000 people die of hunger every day. Americans spend 8,000,000,000 dollars a year on cosmetics. It would cost 9,000,000,000 to provide clean drinking water and basic sanitation to the whole world. (UN, Noreena Hertz's The Silent Takeover)

Your guilt is wholly misplaced. People starve for a lot of reasons, but none of them are because of your spending choices. Weather, Disease, and Governments are the main causes of those problems.

Quote: What do you fine people think is our level of responsability in this issue of global inequality? Do you think that, as birthright members of the top of the totem pole, we have an obligation to do something about inequality? At one extreme is donating all belongings and money and moving into a hut with a Hoarani family in Ecuador. Or we could do nothing. Or give to charity and protest for human rights.

As an individual what you do with your wealth is up to you. If you feel that you want to give up everything and live in a hut in Equador, that is a valid choice. Collectively, “We” don’t have a responsibility to do anything, other than not to use force or coercion against others. (sadly, all governments use force and coercion as a means to existence, which is why I cannot condone the existence of government).

Quote: How did you vote below?

(If you are not from a developed country or the assumptions I made above don't describe you, please don't take offense. I just want to reach a large number of people on the forum. Please post and state how your background affects your opinion.)

I voted No. My background is all over the board. When I was young my family was lower-middle class, My father and mother started out in poverty, but by the time I was born had managed to work up into the middle class. My father started a business when I was about 7 years old. I worked there in the summers from the age of 12. Eventually after many years of struggle, my Fathers business became quite successful. He trades with China and Mexico and visits the manufacturers he buys from in those countries often, and he personally observed the dramatic effect that trade with his and other companies had on the quality of life for the Chinese factory workers from the mid 80’s to present.

[ZakThePhilosopher]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: No one forces these countries to take the loans, its not like we lie about the intrest rate before hands...


They do lie. Not about interest rates but about forecasts for the affect of development. There are various insider accounts of this going on. I.e. the book Confessions of an Economic Hitman. The governments of LDC's are tricked and decieved into thinking that they will be able to pay off international loans (not just IMF and WB, but also USAID) with money earned from "development" projects that channel cash back to the countries and companies that carried them out. People in the highest echelons of these countries are paid off legally or illegally. Their consent hardly speaks for the people who will be taxed to repay loans. It's not a democratic process. As we know, these activities are carried out by business with weaker ties to government since the 80's, but it's the same deal.

thefranzkafkafront wrote:
I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations...

The 3rd world nations need to stop blaming eveyone else, as well as the self styled savoirs of the world such as bono need to stop blaming western goverments, and see that problem isunt us, its the goverments of these nations.


My statement about guilt had less to do with loans and more to do with our relationship as consumers with exploitative MNC's. Nevertheless, MNC's profit enormously from these loans, which are commonly given with them specifically in mind.

As for the morality of MNC's, I do not consider them generally evil. I don't want to debate with you overall positivity or negativity of outsourcing, but I think that even the gains come with great losses in terms of human rights.

thefranzkafkafront wrote:
I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations.


Thanks for that opinion.

[Cato]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations.

Then you're near-sighted.

You see, the people of a nation don't decide whether to accept a loan, that is, they don't vote on it. An individual leader or party, often authoritarian, decides for them. Often, the people suffer as a result. This is obvious, and I think you know it.

The west is at fault because it grants loans to the unscrupulous: dictators and the like. A dictator can do whatever he likes with the loans he's granted, and his people may not see a penny of it go toward bettering their lot. The strange part is that the loan is then levied on the people... That is, it is they who must pay it back... Is this fair? No. Should the West force a nation's people to pay back loans while its leaders live the high life? No. I hope you see the moral dilemma here. How awful is it that the West is forcing innocent people to pay money with interest they've never seen any benefits from? This is a crime.

Let me draw it out for you with an example: Jim the farmer goes about his day-to-day life. Suddenly Jim must pay money he's never before seen. Who is robbing him!? The WB. What does this make the WB in Jim's eyes? A crook. Though the WB gave his nation's leader a lot of money, he has seen none of it. What does that make Jim's leader in his eye? A co-conspirator! And rightly so, Jim, rightly so. The WB profits from Jim's hard work, and so does his leader. Jim discovers where all the money he should have seen from that loan went when a parade of tanks lumber through the streets of his nation's capital in a display of national military power.

One thing's for certain, the west is benefiting greatly from these loans -- to enslave an entire people economically has its benefits. If the west does nothing to change the situation, the situation will remain as it is. By giving loans to the unscrupulous and benefiting from it in the process, the west has shown little moral integrity. You cannot show otherwise. Of that I am quite confident.

[Fido]

We are not obliged to give any one any thing but Justice, and as easy as it seems, one has to know it to give it, with the easy part being only that to give justice is to recieve it as it is in any exchange that justice for one is justice for the other.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Cato wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations.

Then you're near-sighted.

You see, the people of a nation don't decide whether to accept a loan, that is, they don't vote on it. An individual leader or party, often authoritarian, decides for them. Often, the people suffer as a result. This is obvious, and I think you know it.

Then maybe they should do something about that?

Quote:
The west is at fault because it grants loans to the unscrupulous: dictators and the like. A dictator can do whatever he likes with the loans he's granted, and his people may not see a penny of it go toward bettering their lot. The strange part is that the loan is then levied on the people... That is, it is they who must pay it back... Is this fair? No. Should the West force a nation's people to pay back loans while its leaders live the high life? No. I hope you see the moral dilemma here. How awful is it that the West is forcing innocent people to pay money with interest they've never seen any benefits from? This is a crime.
Then how do you prepose thats fixed, they will need the captial to build industry either way, what in your opinon is the limiting element?

[thefranzkafkafront]

ZakThePhilosopher wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: No one forces these countries to take the loans, its not like we lie about the intrest rate before hands...


They do lie. Not about interest rates but about forecasts for the affect of development. There are various insider accounts of this going on. I.e. the book Confessions of an Economic Hitman. The governments of LDC's are tricked and decieved into thinking that they will be able to pay off international loans (not just IMF and WB, but also USAID) with money earned from "development" projects that channel cash back to the countries and companies that carried them out. People in the highest echelons of these countries are paid off legally or illegally. Their consent hardly speaks for the people who will be taxed to repay loans. It's not a democratic process. As we know, these activities are carried out by business with weaker ties to government since the 80's, but it's the same deal.
Then how did the tiger econmies manage to do it, they all took loans back in the 60'ies and 70'ies now certain places like korea have medc living standards and malaysia and indonesia are prehaps a decade behind that.

Quote:
thefranzkafkafront wrote:
I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations...

The 3rd world nations need to stop blaming eveyone else, as well as the self styled savoirs of the world such as bono need to stop blaming western goverments, and see that problem isunt us, its the goverments of these nations.


My statement about guilt had less to do with loans and more to do with our relationship as consumers with exploitative MNC's. Nevertheless, MNC's profit enormously from these loans, which are commonly given with them specifically in mind.

As for the morality of MNC's, I do not consider them generally evil. I don't want to debate with you overall positivity or negativity of outsourcing, but I think that even the gains come with great losses in terms of human rights.
Which human rights exaclty?

Quote:
thefranzkafkafront wrote:
I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations.


Thanks for that opinion.

Who's fault is it, the person who lends the money expecting it back, or the people in change of the money lent to country who spends it all on guns?

Answer me that?


We can't just sit back, and keep saying

"oh its there fault there economies retarded, its us for giving them loans, and multi national corprations for trying to industralise the area."

[Roy L]

thefranzkafkafront wrote:
No one forces these countries to take the loans, <sigh> You still haven't read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man," I see...

[Roy L]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Cato wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations.

Then you're near-sighted.

You see, the people of a nation don't decide whether to accept a loan, that is, they don't vote on it. An individual leader or party, often authoritarian, decides for them. Often, the people suffer as a result. This is obvious, and I think you know it.

Then maybe they should do something about that? Yes, they should: repudiate the debts.
Quote: Quote:
The west is at fault because it grants loans to the unscrupulous: dictators and the like. A dictator can do whatever he likes with the loans he's granted, and his people may not see a penny of it go toward bettering their lot. The strange part is that the loan is then levied on the people... That is, it is they who must pay it back... Is this fair? No. Should the West force a nation's people to pay back loans while its leaders live the high life? No. I hope you see the moral dilemma here. How awful is it that the West is forcing innocent people to pay money with interest they've never seen any benefits from? This is a crime.
Then how do you prepose thats fixed, they will need the captial to build industry either way, what in your opinon is the limiting element? The greed of both their rulers and the rich Western bankers who insist on getting their something for nothing, even if it takes bribery, threats and the occasional assassination.

[Roy L]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: ZakThePhilosopher wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: No one forces these countries to take the loans, its not like we lie about the intrest rate before hands...


They do lie. Not about interest rates but about forecasts for the affect of development. There are various insider accounts of this going on. I.e. the book Confessions of an Economic Hitman. The governments of LDC's are tricked and decieved into thinking that they will be able to pay off international loans (not just IMF and WB, but also USAID) with money earned from "development" projects that channel cash back to the countries and companies that carried them out. People in the highest echelons of these countries are paid off legally or illegally. Their consent hardly speaks for the people who will be taxed to repay loans. It's not a democratic process. As we know, these activities are carried out by business with weaker ties to government since the 80's, but it's the same deal.
Then how did the tiger econmies manage to do it, they all took loans back in the 60'ies and 70'ies now certain places like korea have medc living standards and malaysia and indonesia are prehaps a decade behind that. They had rule of law.
Quote:
Quote:
As for the morality of MNC's, I do not consider them generally evil. I don't want to debate with you overall positivity or negativity of outsourcing, but I think that even the gains come with great losses in terms of human rights.
Which human rights exaclty? Life, liberty, and property in the products of their labor.
Quote:
Quote:
thefranzkafkafront wrote:
I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations.


Thanks for that opinion.

Who's fault is it, the person who lends the money expecting it back, or the people in change of the money lent to country who spends it all on guns?
The people lending the money DON'T expect it back. They lend it expecting to be able to steal the country's resources and infrastructure and enslave its people. Instead of just sharing your ignorance, why not make an effort to inform yourself? You can start by reading "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"? Quote:
We can't just sit back, and keep saying

"oh its there fault there economies retarded, its us for giving them loans, and multi national corprations for trying to industralise the area." ??? What on earth makes you think MNCs are "trying to industrialize the area"? They're just trying to get ownership of the natural resources and other privileges so they can start collecting economic rent in return for doing nothing, just as the privileged have always done.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote:
No one forces these countries to take the loans, <sigh> You still haven't read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man," I see...

Oh and i suppose thats undisputable truth.

Quote: Yes, they should: repudiate the debts.
Oh hello thrid world dictatorship, hows that money we leant you being invested. I see you spent it all on guns.... oh well never mind lets just write it off then.

Quote: The greed of both their rulers and the rich Western bankers who insist on getting their something for nothing, even if it takes bribery, threats and the occasional assassination.
Do they now. So usury is a sin these days eh?

Quote: They had rule of law.
And? What else?

Competant leaders! so whats the missing part of the equation in the other countires?

Quote: Life, liberty, and property in the products of their labor.
How do MNC supress these rights exaclty?

Quote: The people lending the money DON'T expect it back. They lend it expecting to be able to steal the country's resources and infrastructure and enslave its people. Instead of just sharing your ignorance, why not make an effort to inform yourself? You can start by reading "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"?
So whats with the Tiger Economies then?

Ill read this bible of yours when i can be bothered frankly, but a single mans testmonial dose not make somthing true, nor dose it give you the authority to start claiming others are ignorant for not reading it.

Quote: ??? What on earth makes you think MNCs are "trying to industrialize the area"? They're just trying to get ownership of the natural resources and other privileges so they can start collecting economic rent in return for doing nothing, just as the privileged have always done.
Classic stuff, So thats what there doing in Malaysian and Indonesia right now, establish them selves as the landed gentry :lol:

They sure to produce a lot of goods for people not doing anything.

[Cato]

Quote: Then maybe they should do something about that?

Who? The poor and destitute people of these nations? Is that who you mean? In many cases they do fight back. They face both local and western super-powers, and find the courage still. I suppose when you're starving you find yourself between a rock and hard-place, and choose to go out fighting. At least there's some honor in that.

Quote: Then how do you prepose thats fixed, they will need the captial to build industry either way, what in your opinon is the limiting element?

Not a word in defense of your previous argument? So, I suppose we're agreed that some of the fault is the west's then, huh?

A society with an embedded economic system doesn't need capital infusions. Societies don't begin impoverished by default. They develop with their economic systems, and thus provide their people with a particular way of life. Third World nations suffer because they have been subjected to a foreign economic model, one that does not support its people in a dependable way. African societies, for instance, haven't always been 'under-developed'. They once had an economic model different from that in the west. This changed only with the west's meddling. The WB's loans were distributed in the mid 40's with the aim of incorporating these 'fringe' peoples into the capitalist whole; they were distributed in order to expand the global market-place: to homogenize the world's heterogenic aspects. Understand?

[ZakThePhilosopher]

Cato wrote:
thefranzkafkafront wrote: Then maybe they should do something about that?


Who? The poor and destitute people of these nations? Is that who you mean? In many cases they do fight back. They face both local and western super-powers, and find the courage still. I suppose when you're starving you find yourself between a rock and hard-place, and choose to go out fighting. At least there's some honor in that.


Seriously, thefranzkafkafront, I respect your opinion:

thefranzkafkafront wrote: I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations
(though I do not agree), but you can't seriously say that the poor in LDC's are not doing anything about it. Witness the Zapatistas (http://home.clara.net/heureka/gaia/zapatistas.htm) and many, many, many other "terrorist," "anarchist" or "communist" movements. Think of Vladimir Lenin, Omar Torrijos (Panama), Jaime Roldos (Ecuador), Mohammed Mossadegh (Premier of Iran who CIA replaced with the Shah).

They usually fail, because the leaders of the capitalist system either subdue them, or kill them. Any system that requires assassinations of very popular leaders by other countries like the United States is absolutely an unjust violation of those countries' sovereignty. And just think, those assassinations are continuations of the policies of neoliberalism and other forms of capitalism before it.

People do stand up, but they are struck down.

[ZakThePhilosopher]

I'm happy everyone's participating so zestily in this thread, but could you please focus a little more on answering the central question:

The first post of the thread wrote: What do you fine people think is our level of responsability in this issue of global inequality? Do you think that, as birthright members of the top of the totem pole, we have an obligation to do something about inequality? A one extreme is donating all belongings and money and moving into a hut with a Hoarani family in Ecuador. Or we could do nothing. Or give to charity and protest for human rights.

I'm currently reading and researching to answer this question for myself, and I really want to know your opinions. I won't be annoying and tell you what to write, but please at least include your thoughts about your responsability or lack thereof to do something about global inequality.

Thanks

[thefranzkafkafront]

ZakThePhilosopher wrote: Cato wrote:
thefranzkafkafront wrote: Then maybe they should do something about that?


Who? The poor and destitute people of these nations? Is that who you mean? In many cases they do fight back. They face both local and western super-powers, and find the courage still. I suppose when you're starving you find yourself between a rock and hard-place, and choose to go out fighting. At least there's some honor in that.


Seriously, thefranzkafkafront, I respect your opinion:

thefranzkafkafront wrote: I fail to see how its anyones fault bar the leaders of these nations
(though I do not agree), but you can't seriously say that the poor in LDC's are not doing anything about it. Witness the Zapatistas (http://home.clara.net/heureka/gaia/zapatistas.htm) and many, many, many other "terrorist," "anarchist" or "communist" movements. Think of Vladimir Lenin, Omar Torrijos (Panama), Jaime Roldos (Ecuador), Mohammed Mossadegh (Premier of Iran who CIA replaced with the Shah).

They usually fail, because the leaders of the capitalist system either subdue them, or kill them. Any system that requires assassinations of very popular leaders by other countries like the United States is absolutely an unjust violation of those countries' sovereignty. And just think, those assassinations are continuations of the policies of neoliberalism and other forms of capitalism before it.

People do stand up, but they are struck down.

Examples of success i would reiterate again would be thouse of Indonesia and Korea, Millitary dicatorships -> democaries.

And in both cases very repressive millitary dictatorships.

If they can do it, why can't eveyone else.

[Cato]

Quote: If they can do it, why can't eveyone else.

What are you talking about?

[Katsumoto]

ZakThePhilosopher wrote: I'm happy everyone's participating so zestily in this thread, but could you please focus a little more on answering the central question:

The first post of the thread wrote: What do you fine people think is our level of responsability in this issue of global inequality? Do you think that, as birthright members of the top of the totem pole, we have an obligation to do something about inequality? A one extreme is donating all belongings and money and moving into a hut with a Hoarani family in Ecuador. Or we could do nothing. Or give to charity and protest for human rights.

I'm currently reading and researching to answer this question for myself, and I really want to know your opinions. I won't be annoying and tell you what to write, but please at least include your thoughts about your responsability or lack thereof to do something about global inequality.

Thanks

Well I for one answered you. It must have been a good answer cause no one challenged it... :dance:

[Cato]

Quote: What do you fine people think is our level of responsability in this issue of global inequality? Do you think that, as birthright members of the top of the totem pole, we have an obligation to do something about inequality?

Centralized economic systems engender inequity perforce. Those who hold such systems together do so because these are the source of their wealth, and, subsequently, their ability to hold said systems together. That is, the rich will always protect their source of income, and such will always ensure them the means to do so (wealth itself is the greatest tool of coercion known to man).

A sense of responsibility is a moral consideration. It is to ask oneself: 'what do I owe those I harm?' and is foreign to such systems. It comes, probably, from the have-nots themselves in the form of an ideology: 'we should not be harmed, for this whole system rests on our backs!' An ideology moves fluently between classes and peoples, but always takes on the hue of the particular class or people it occupies. Take Christianity, for instance. It began a religion for slaves and women (for it preached a certain type of escape from social positions), and grew, rather suddenly, into a mighty imperial standard. The nature of the religion changed almost instantly: from a religion of tranquil ascetics, to one of armour-clad missionaries: from a religion of slave identity, to one of master identity. The church, a humble sheep, mutated into a monstrous Leviathan! No doubt, however, a certain transfusion of moral values took place in the process. Thus, we have the moral notion that responsibility is owed those who have-not.

I believe that we do have this responsibility, but then I am merely a product of our time, and I admit it openly :)

[thefranzkafkafront]

Cato wrote: Quote: If they can do it, why can't eveyone else.

What are you talking about?

Korea and Indonesia, have followed a highly similar pattern as most LEDC's both of them wer. controled by millitary dicatorships, in both cases backed by the U.S. Both given loans, Both full of MNC.

By all the criteria preposed that we are to blame for, they should be completely and utter failures.

Yet both are Now democracies by thier own actions, indonesia is rapidly industralising and Korea is a MEDC.

If these two nations, as there are others as i have mentioned the tiger economies, are capable of apprenlty beating the 'economic hit men' why are the rest unable to do so.