Political Crossfire Forums

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

Quote: Almost nothing is created in those countries...well except for the oil piped out of the ground. They are poor and backwards.

it seems that you don't concentrate when reading, i said they produce things that are spread to islamic countries at maximum, which means we don't produce in amounts to export to the rest of the world and they are culturally.........poor yes, but not all of us......backwards definitely not....

Quote: No, Muslim countries aren't exactly welcoming to immigrants. THe migrant worker experience in KSA is, shall we understate, not pleasant one.

yes they are welcoming immigrants, don't say things you don't know about. so you are speaking about your own experience? look back what did you do that made the ksa people so unpleasant to you....

Quote: Why are majority Muslim countries poor and Western countries rich. THe fact that so many people desperately want to move to the West is a ringing endorsement of our culture and what it enables us to produce. Islamic countries are so backwards due to the same type of idiotic thinking that got millions of people upset over some cartoons...sorry, not upset but murderous.

the cartoons were really offending, as one said insulting the prophet is not something we let go off.........do you know why the western countries are rich, because we muslims buy your products.....if the case was the opposite then we would be rich and you poor, it is just a matter of roles......yeah so now muslims are killers and when you people go to iraq, palestine and afghanistan you are not killers, the US killing a whole family in front of 12 year old girl is not killing, making her go crazy is not killing.....well congratulations for not being killers

Quote: And the US pays very well for them, enabling idle idiots in Saudi Arabia to live off of migrants workers and the oil that gushes from the ground. That's lucky for them but their culture of indolence is going to have to change as the market for oil fades over the next 50 years otherwise it'll go back to being the country of illiterate goat herders that it was until Western - i.e produced in (relative) freedom - expertise allowed them to a live a life they'd never been capable of giving themselves.

it seems to me that you really had a bad experience in KSA, better luck next time.......the US pays the islamic countries money but this money goes to western immigrants living in the islamic countries.......

Quote: I have read the Quran, or at least parts of it, and own a copy myself. I should have learnt my lesson when I wasted my money on Mein Kampf, but no I went and bought another overly-long piece of lunatic's ramblings..... you prescribe reading the Quran even more - a 1400 year old book - in order to move forwards? Notice how it is the most secular countries in the Muslim world that have done best...could it not be that, if there is a god, she wanted people to use their brains and bodies not idly demand wealth from her or from others.

you should also learn your lesson to go to places you love......the quran is much worth all the money in this world........hey you are so over your limits about the quran....you should have some respect....yes god, which everybody in the world refers to as he, wants us to use our brains and bodies which is mentioned in the quran
the quran speaks about poltics, economy, relationships, stories to learn from, faith and much more, do you have book that is similar.....you will never find one......

islamic cultures are not backward, as i told you muslims are so endorsed with things that made them leave what the quran says........they didn't stand up to god's expectations so god is not helping them.......there a verse in the quran that says that god won't change a community until they change what is inside them from intentions and focus and stuff....
that is why the quran is the best, it includes everything for everytime....

Showboat · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:11 am Post subject:

Quote: the quran speaks about poltics, economy, relationships, stories to learn from, faith and much more, do you have book that is similar.....you will never find one......

To be fair, Muslima, the bible has all that. They're pretty similar.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

showboat.......is the bible you have now the same as the bible since 1500 years?

Showboat · Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:

Muslima wrote: showboat.......is the bible you have now the same as the bible since 1500 years?

Who knows? :-D

Although I did read somewhere (probably on here) that those old scriptures they dug up in the mid East from before Christs time were almost exactly the same as our ones today.

And even if its not it still speaks about "poltics, economy, relationships, stories to learn from, faith and much more". Which is what you asked.

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2693

Quote: it seems to me that you really had a bad experience in KSA, better luck next time.......the US pays the islamic countries money but this money goes to western immigrants living in the islamic countries .......

Wrong, another delusional statement, you really shouldn't trust your media outlets when they are controled by Governments.

Muslims cannot continue to blame the west for its problems, and your intellectual stagnation, your once fine civilization is rotting because of your inability to change you must embrace modernity but try to keep your distinct culture you have to figure the way forward by yourselves

It goes to you political elites who use Islam to keep you all in check you people should rise up and reclaim your resources and your Faith from the corrupt few who currently hold power in your lands.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: it seems that you don't concentrate when reading, i said they produce things that are spread to islamic countries at maximum, which means we don't produce in amounts to export to the rest of the world and they are culturally.........poor yes, but not all of us......backwards definitely not....

I' not sure what this means exactly, but the point is that poverty is a lack of production and thus the fact that they are poor points to a distinct lack of producing. As for individuals, unfortunately this discussion is not about them but generalised trends, of course there will be many amazingly intelligent, productive and good individuals in those countries.

Quote: yes they are welcoming immigrants, don't say things you don't know about. so you are speaking about your own experience? look back what did you do that made the ksa people so unpleasant to you....

I've never visited KSA, unfortunately, though I'm always planning to go despite the difficulty in getting a visa. I know in the KSA they are extremely unwelcoming to immigrants from the third world, and the first world ones they are pleasant to but keep them in compounds. Pakistanis, and Indonesians in particular are treated in a disgusting manner as I've been informed by Saudi nationals, and well-documented reports.

Quote: the cartoons were really offending, as one said insulting the prophet is not something we let go off.........

So instead you burn buildings, call for millions of murders and act like the spoilt children that you always seem to act like.

Quote: do you know why the western countries are rich, because we muslims buy your products

No. The reason is that the Western countries invented the vast majority of the stuff in the modern world, and the Japanese, Koreans and Indians made the rest.

Quote: the US pays the islamic countries money but this money goes to western immigrants living in the islamic countries

No, most of it goes to the royal family, the idiot imams, and promoting their twisted ideology around the world. Some of it also goes to stopping the KSA stockmarket from crashing into bankruptcy, the date industry alive and the second hand goods market going.The Western immigrants receive some, though a minute proportion, of course this is because they are the only ones capable of getting the oil out of the ground. Why is this?

Quote: the quran is much worth all the money in this world........hey you are so over your limits about the quran....you should have some respect

Why should I respect it? Or is you simply saying I should reason enough?

Quote: yes god, which everybody in the world refers to as he, wants us to use our brains and bodies which is mentioned in the quran
the quran speaks about poltics, economy, relationships, stories to learn from, faith and much more, do you have book that is similar.....you will never find one......

Why are you incapable of anything but emotion driven argument? I know how obsessed you are...I don't care...you're not going to change my mind on the Quran, which currently takes the position that the Quran is excrement, without giving a reason.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

mendosan.....media has nothing to do with it

if any people with jobs need salaries.......ceos and ohers need a very high salary....so they are given salary.....most foriegners in my country have high job levels because of their experience......

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

robin hood

i don't want to change your idea about the quran, i just think you should respect things even if you dislike it, it is all about morals.....nor i want you to believe me or anything

i know that arabs not islamic countries haven't reached the level of the west or farther east, but that doesn't mean that you go and say bad things about them or insulting them, this won't solve the problem......
the problem in my region is that there many intelligent people but nobody is willing to support either financially or any other way...i don't know why
i will give an example.....several years ago a guy from my country made his own car by using some used car engines and some new but cheap things from india........he was in a magazine inside his car and he said that he wants somebody to support him but since then nobody knows what happened to him.......

hoenstly, i don't why this hatred from you or any other person who behaves like you.......terrorists are not true muslims....you know that.....

i don't have anything more to argue with....but i have one question
where is robin hood that told me once some people are mean don't care about them?

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: i don't want to change your idea about the quran, i just think you should respect things even if you dislike it, it is all about morals

I don't like most idiots, and I don't respect them. BTW, slightly off topic, do you respect pigs? Or apostates? Personally I respect things when I have reason to respect them, and there is no reason to respect the Quran.

Quote: i know that arabs not islamic countries haven't reached the level of the west or farther east, but that doesn't mean that you go and say bad things about them or insulting them, this won't solve the problem......

Telling them how great they are i.e lying will?

Quote: the problem in my region is that there many intelligent people but nobody is willing to support either financially or any other way...

That's what happens when your cultural modus operandi is a 1400 year fiction, mixed with socialism.

Quote: hoenstly, i don't why this hatred from you or any other person who behaves like you.......terrorists are not true muslims....you know that.....

Do true Muslims want to punish apostates, ban alcohol, or make any restrictions on other human beings?

Quote: but i have one question
where is robin hood that told me once some people are mean don't care about them?

Tired of the unending stream of barbarities committed in the name of Islam. Tired of people using dumb superstitions in order to aggress on others. Tired of people unable to admit to their own failings, instead choosing to blame everything on ridiculous conspiracies. This is the trend in Europe at the moment, in fact it is the trend in the whole world. Islam currently makes me feel sick, wherever it dominates all I can see is vast swathes of ignorance, poverty, and savagery. I don't have much respect for any religion, but those that I do, are the peaceful ones, the ones amenable to liberty, and the ones whose adherents actually do something good - that invent and create. Islam can not, currently, be counted as one of those.

The attacks I termed 'mean' were baseless and horrible accusations, mine are not.

islandhopper · Joined: 16 May 2006 Posts: 364 Location: 10,000 Islands

Muslima wrote: islandhopper wrote: Muslima wrote: ..other death penalties do occur for other cases......now.....do you want islamic countries to outlaw death penalties?

Yes, and I want the USA to outlaw its death penalty too. But unfortunately, I can't have everything I want.

and unfortunately, i can't do or agree with everything you want....

And for that, I care not.

timepass · Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 9

Muslima wrote: timepass wrote: muslima, you forgot to answer me.

sorry i thought i did.....

percentages sometimes prove things.....

Muslima, do they prove my point.If not then why not ?

Ostia Di Ellysium · Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 11

New to this forum..but I am interested...

Islam IS the fastest growing in the world, especially in Africa because (some of these can be applied elsewhere)...

1. Christianity is often associated with colonialism

2. Most are converted to Sufi Islam, which is flexible enough to incorporate some local traditions

3. It is easier to understand:
It offers clear and deliberate rules on how to enter heaven
The rewards are straightforward

4. It offers hope to the hopeless

5. It offers a way of life with structure, and a means for justice often where there is none

6. The populations often have a higher birthrate, especially in poor areas (although this is not exclusive)

7. In cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, the religion perpetuates - the consequences of straying is often very high

8. It gives the individual a niche in a larger community they can identify with...(its why the dispossessed sometimes become fanatic, believing they are defending the place where they feel they finally belong and are told is threatened)

9. Islam treats all peoples equally...it applies to all..not the privileged few

Multiples of positives, more so than negatives...can't blame them most times...nature abhors a vacuum - and people in the land of the lost often need something greater to believe in...

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16395 Location: On Earth

Ostia Di Ellysium wrote: New to this forum..but I am interested...

Islam IS the fastest growing in the world, especially in Africa because (some of these can be applied elsewhere)...

1. Christianity is often associated with colonialism

That is true.

Quote: 2. Most are converted to Sufi Islam, which is flexible enough to incorporate some local traditions

Not always, though. Sunnite Islam is Islam at its base. Sufi Islam is actually harder and in fact involves mysticism more than prayer.

Quote: 3. It is easier to understand:
It offers clear and deliberate rules on how to enter heaven
The rewards are straightforward

4. It offers hope to the hopeless

5. It offers a way of life with structure, and a means for justice often where there is none

6. The populations often have a higher birthrate, especially in poor areas (although this is not exclusive)

7. In cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, the religion perpetuates - the consequences of straying is often very high

8. It gives the individual a niche in a larger community they can identify with...(its why the dispossessed sometimes become fanatic, believing they are defending the place where they feel they finally belong and are told is threatened)

9. Islam treats all peoples equally...it applies to all..not the privileged few

Multiples of positives, more so than negatives...can't blame them most times...nature abhors a vacuum - and people in the land of the lost often need something greater to believe in...

Other than that, excellent post, and welcome to the forums.

Ostia Di Ellysium · Joined: 30 Jun 2006 Posts: 11

[quote="Saracen"] Ostia Di Ellysium wrote: New to this forum..but I am interested...

Quote: 2. Most are converted to Sufi Islam, which is flexible enough to incorporate some local traditions

Not always, though. Sunnite Islam is Islam at its base. Sufi Islam is actually harder and in fact involves mysticism more than prayer.

The Sufi part is more oriented towards Africa though...mysticism is more part of life there...can't say about other areas though

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

Quote: I don't like most idiots, and I don't respect them. BTW, slightly off topic, do you respect pigs? Or apostates? Personally I respect things when I have reason to respect them, and there is no reason to respect the Quran.

we don't respect animals we have mercy on them. yes i might not respect apostates but i won't go around insulting them.....

Quote: Telling them how great they are i.e lying will?

lying also won't solve the problem....how about something similar to support?

Quote: That's what happens when your cultural modus operandi is a 1400 year fiction, mixed with socialism.

no it is the opposite they left the "cultural modus operandi" of a 1400 year wisdom....that is the reason

Quote: Do true Muslims want to punish apostates, ban alcohol, or make any restrictions on other human beings?

punish apostates and make restrictions....depends
ban alcohol...yes
BUT in islamic countries, yet forcing things around aren't as effective as making people will to follow...

Quote: Tired of the unending stream of barbarities committed in the name of Islam.
you said it, so why this attitude?

Quote: Tired of people using dumb superstitions in order to aggress on others.

if they are not according to islam they are dump superstitions.....
again why this attitude?

Quote: Tired of people unable to admit to their own failings, instead choosing to blame everything on ridiculous conspiracies. This is the trend in Europe at the moment, in fact it is the trend in the whole world. Islam currently makes me feel sick, wherever it dominates all I can see is vast swathes of ignorance, poverty, and savagery. I don't have much respect for any religion, but those that I do, are the peaceful ones, the ones amenable to liberty, and the ones whose adherents actually do something good - that invent and create. Islam can not, currently, be counted as one of those.

muslims we the best when they followed islam exactly and were muslims, not islamics...
poverty and savagery didn't exist when muslims followed islam....ZAKAHT...
islam means peace in arabic, so it is counted...
again why this attitude?

Quote: The attacks I termed 'mean' were baseless and horrible accusations, mine are not.

yes i agree, but your unconscious writings will reach the mean.......people won't care then...

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: we don't respect animals we have mercy on them. yes i might not respect apostates but i won't go around insulting them.....

So you were lying when you said this: i don't want to change your idea about the quran, i just think you should respect things even if you dislike it, it is all about morals

Quote: lying also won't solve the problem....how about something similar to support?

Why should I support your superstitions?

Quote: punish apostates and make restrictions....depends
ban alcohol...yes
BUT in islamic countries, yet forcing things around aren't as effective as making people will to follow...

Basically you won't to attack anyone who doesn't agree with you, and ban anything you don't like....you truly are a model of tolerance and enlightenment. :lol:

Quote: islam means peace in arabic, so it is counted...

Islam means submit.

Quote: why this attitude?

Muslims threatening murder over cartoons
Muslims beheading schoolgirls.
Muslims purposefully shooting five year olds as they flee for their lives.
Muslims blowing up buses.
Muslims executing the rape victim.
The Faustian pact between Islam and authoritarianism that has comprehensively wrecked so much of the world and threatens to wreck even more.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

Quote: So you were lying when you said this: i don't want to change your idea about the quran, i just think you should respect things even if you dislike it, it is all about morals

No i wasn't lying. I will not respect that they left Islam, but i will respect them personally and i won't say harsh things to them.....i might try to convince them to come back but it doesn't mean i will rude or anything, because many of them do come back even after 20 years...

Quote: Why should I support your superstitions?

which superstitions?
i was just trying to make you look at things from different aspects.

Quote: Basically you won't to attack anyone who doesn't agree with you, and ban anything you don't like....you truly are a model of tolerance and enlightenment. :lol:

i won't ban things i don't like, i will ban things that my religion bans.....i don't like to eat red meat, that doesn't mean i will ban red meat from the market (my career has to do with food). you can't make everybody agree with you, that is just crazy, but at least you should try to talk to them.

Quote: Islam means submit.

yes, true. but it means submit peacefully....

Quote: Muslims threatening murder over cartoons

nobody gave them the right to make fun of others, freedom of speech doesn't mean being rude.

Quote: Muslims beheading schoolgirls.

it is wrong, but again it happens in the rest of the world too.

Quote: Muslims purposefully shooting five year olds as they flee for their lives.

oh really? and the non-muslims shooting 1 year olds purposefully is right?
hitting pregnant women in right?
i agree that the muslims shouldn't do that but even non-muslims do that so why only blame them?

Quote: Muslims blowing up buses.
Muslims executing the rape victim.

blowing houses in iraq and palestine by non-muslims that are full of children happens too.
executing rape victims is totally wrong, i know, but what you don't know is that these muslims are illiterate.

Quote: The Faustian pact between Islam and authoritarianism that has comprehensively wrecked so much of the world and threatens to wreck even more.

i think now i know why you keep saying this. you mean the ottoman empire, if i am thinking right, but that era is gone and i don't think muslims are looking for such a thing, yes they are looking for union between islamic countries such as the union in europe, but not the ottoman way even though it looks similar in size.....

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: No i wasn't lying. I will not respect that they left Islam, but i will respect them personally and i won't say harsh things to them.....i might try to convince them to come back but it doesn't mean i will rude or anything,

I said apostates, not apostatism. Do you respect apostates i.e the people?

Quote: because many of them do come back even after 20 years...

I doubt that

Quote: which superstitions?

Islam.

Quote: i won't ban things i don't like, i will ban things that my religion bans

Same thing. What does your religion ban, by the way? According to you?

Quote: nobody gave them the right to make fun of others, freedom of speech doesn't mean being rude.

Freedom of speech means you can be rude, they can be rude back and you can ignore one another. Did the cartoons deserve death threats, riots, the burning of buildings or in fact any punishment whatsoever?

Quote: executing rape victims is totally wrong, i know, but what you don't know is that these muslims are illiterate.

It was the government, one composed of clerics and a great many literate people.

Quote: i think now i know why you keep saying this. you mean the ottoman empire, if i am thinking right, but that era is gone and i don't think muslims are looking for such a thing, yes they are looking for union between islamic countries such as the union in europe, but not the ottoman way even though it looks similar in size.....

No, what I said has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire. It has everything to do with the extreme authoritarian reality in so much of the Islamic world. The extreme authoritarian reality that Islam has allied itself partially to. If Islam were still the libertarian tradition of old, of Ibn-Khaldun and others, then I would respect it despite viewing it as mindless superstition. The problem is that it is not. It is used to justify the most horrific oppressions, and tyrannies on earth. The goverments of Iran and Saudi Arabia are the clearest examples, they are totally without merit and truly deserve the term 'evil'. Anyone opposed to them, and any religion opposed to them I can, in part, make common cause with. Unfortunately those are self-described Islamic regimes, and like the communism of the last century, represent humanity at its worst. This is the main reason why I find Islam so horribly distateful, because I find corruption, slavery, and oppression distasteful.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

Quote: I said apostates, not apostatism. Do you respect apostates i.e the people?

yes.

Quote: I doubt that

a Saudian returned to islam after 18 years just recently, still doubt?

Quote: Islam.

it is not to a superstition to believe, it is a religion as any other in this world.

Quote: Same thing. What does your religion ban, by the way? According to you?

Not the same thing. Alcohol, bad drugs (not medical), ham, gambling, porn, etc, etc.

Quote: Freedom of speech means you can be rude, they can be rude back and you can ignore one another. Did the cartoons deserve death threats, riots, the burning of buildings or in fact any punishment whatsoever?

death threats and burning no. but i think not buying the danish products for a while did the job, which wasn't harmful at all.

Quote: It was the government, one composed of clerics and a great many literate people.

what is their level literacy?

Quote: No, what I said has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire. It has everything to do with the extreme authoritarian reality in so much of the Islamic world. The extreme authoritarian reality that Islam has allied itself partially to. If Islam were still the libertarian tradition of old, of Ibn-Khaldun and others, then I would respect it despite viewing it as mindless superstition. The problem is that it is not. It is used to justify the most horrific oppressions, and tyrannies on earth. The goverments of Iran and Saudi Arabia are the clearest examples, they are totally without merit and truly deserve the term 'evil'. Anyone opposed to them, and any religion opposed to them I can, in part, make common cause with. Unfortunately those are self-described Islamic regimes, and like the communism of the last century, represent humanity at its worst. This is the main reason why I find Islam so horribly distateful, because I find corruption, slavery, and oppression distasteful.

they are distasteful, but you have said your self, it was and it still is, but the difference is how it was used and it is used.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1639

forgot to ask

can you read in arabic?