Political Crossfire Forums

[steve abdul jabbar]

Don't worry, Bush is on it. When asked in 2004 what his plans were he had this to say:

Quote: "I kind of, in jest, like to travel our country, saying, wouldn't it be wonderful if someday the President sat down and looked at the crop report, and said, man, we've got a lot of soybeans; it means we're less dependent on foreign sources of energy. We're spending money to figure out how best to refine soy into diesel."

He travels around the country, joking about how some president will some day marvel at the soybean crops and spend a lot of money on biodiesel. Talk about bold and effective leadership!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050607-2.html

[variant]

I don't have the ability to make neat pictures but I'll give it a go.

Your both wrong about "Biodiesel


Biodesel is made by subjecting triglycerides (as shown in your figures) with a base and methanol to get an ester.

So you start with triglycerides and react them with base (Usually NAOH) to get glycerin and carboxylic fatty acids

Fatty Acid
R-(C=O)-OH

Plus methanol

CH3-OH

Gives Biodesel esters:

R-(C=O)-O-Ch3

Methanol is not "biodiesel" or diesel for that matter, methanol is used to make biodiesil esters.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/index.html

Perhaps somebody should ring up this University and tell them they made a mistake in chemistry?

Well... yes, the university page you've linked to is right but you've massively misunderstood it.

you woulnd be able to use a trigylceride in an engine becuase it
A woulnt vapourise
B woulnt autoignite underpressure as diesal engines require.
Wrong again. See:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

While some modifications to the engine are needed to pre-heat the fuel, etc., many vegetable oils can be burned in diesel engines.
Quote:
Also I know very well what R stands for, the fact of the matter is the C=O and C-O-H groups on the same end of a carbon atom signify a carboxylic acid, these burn poorly at best becuase there not good reducing agents.

Its very basic organic chemistry.
Wrong again. Typical vegetable oils contain ample chemical energy for use as motor fuels, they just don't have the vaporization characteristics needed for use in typical unmodified internal combustion engines designed to run on highly volatile petroleum-derived fuels (mainly aliphatic hydrocarbons). That can be solved by mixing the vegetable oil with more volatile fuels, pre-heating it prior to injection, etc.
Quote:
Its just that the person writing the article has misunderstood what the chemistry was getting at, you'll find neither triglycerides or fatty acids in any sort of fuel, biodiesal is methanol derivatives.
Wrong again:

"Vegetable oil can be converted for use in a diesel engine by the process of transesterification. The three ester bonds within a triglyceride are first hydrolysed to form Free Fatty Acids, which are reacted with Methanol or Ethanol to from Methyl or Ethyl fatty acid esters,. This provides a thinner (less viscous) and more volatile fuel, and a by-product of glycerin. The process of transesterification separates the three bio-organic esters from the bond leaving each one as a free aliphatic hydrocarbon chain with a carboxylic acid group at one end."

http://www.bio-power.co.uk/chemi.htm

And furthermore:

" The concept of using vegetable oil as a fuel dates back to 1895 when Dr. Rudolf Diesel developed the first diesel engine to run on vegetable oil. He demonstrated his engine at the World Exhibition in Paris in 1900 and described an experiment using peanut oil as fuel in his engine."

http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/technology.html

You had me at the ethanol, yeap. And what this other guy is suggesting about esters makes far more sense. But its a simple fact of chemistry that trigylcerides and fatty acids are completely impratical for a combustion engine.

I mean the mollecules are just too big.

[Roy L]

variant wrote:
Your both wrong about "Biodiesel <sigh> No. I am right. Read the links I gave.
Quote:
Biodesel is made by subjecting triglycerides (as shown in your figures) with a base and methanol to get an ester.
That is one way to use vegetable oil in diesel engines, one that minimizes the engine modifications needed. Another way is by mixing vegetable oil with more volatile fuels using special injectors, etc. Another way is to start the engine with a volatile fuel, then use waste engine heat to pre-heat the vegetable oil before injection.

Read the links I gave.

[Roy L]

thefranzkafkafront wrote:
You had me at the ethanol, yeap. And what this other guy is suggesting about esters makes far more sense. ??? So, you totally ignored the quote and link I gave that talked about the very same process? That fits....
Quote:
But its a simple fact of chemistry that trigylcerides and fatty acids are completely impratical for a combustion engine.

I mean the mollecules are just too big.
<sigh> Why do you refuse to know all facts that I identify for you? Read the links I gave. Rudolph Diesel used peanut oil in one of his engines over 100 years ago. You can buy conversions that burn straight vegetable oil NOW,

Or just take a frying pan, pour in a cup of salad oil, and put it on the stove. Turn the heat to High and tell us what happens.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Quote: "There's enough alcohol in one year's yeild of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for one hundred years."
- Henry Ford: 1863 - 1947

Fuel of the Future

When Henry Ford told a New York Times reporter that ethyl alcohol was "the fuel of the future" in 1925, he was expressing an opinion that was widely shared in the automotive industry. "The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumach out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything," he said. "There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years."

Ford recognized the utility of the hemp plant. He constructed a car of resin stiffened hemp fiber, and even ran the car on ethanol made from hemp. Ford knew that hemp could produce vast economic resources if widely cultivated.

Ford's optimistic appraisal of cellulose and crop based ethyl alcohol fuel can be read in several ways. First, it can be seen as an oblique jab at a competitor. General Motors had come to considerable grief that summer of 1925 over another octane boosting fuel called tetra-ethyl lead, and government officials had been quietly in touch with Ford engineers about alternatives to leaded gasoline additives. Secondly, by 1925 the American farms that Ford loved were facing an economic crisis that would later intensify with the depression. Although the causes of the crisis were complex, one possible solution was seen in creating new markets for farm products. With Ford's financial and political backing, the idea of opening up industrial markets for farmers would be translated into a broad movement for scientific research in agriculture that would be labelled "Farm Chemurgy."

Why Henry's plans were delayed for more than a half century:

Quote: Hemp car was an alternative-fuel project car that utilized hemp biodiesel for fuel. Industrial hemp would be an economical fuel if hemp were legal to cultivate in the United States. Industrial hemp has no psychoactive properties and is not a drug. Hemp Car demonstrates the concept of hemp fuels on a national level and promotes the reformation of current law.
The car toured America, with stops in Canada, frequenting alternative-energy, environmental, and hemp-legalization events. The car departed from Washington D.C. on July 4, 2001 and returned home on October 2, 2001. The car generated publicity, emphasizing the utility of industrial hemp to modern society. We provided the public with information about biofuels, hemp, their uses, and current American laws. We established a world distance record for a vehicle utilizing hemp for fuel: 10,000 miles.

A network of hemp activists provided us with the hemp oil at planned intervals throughout the country. Funding, sponsorships, and networking were necessary for Hemp Car to succeed. We give great thanks to all of the activists and concerned citizens who made Hempcar possible.

http://www.hempcar.org/


Ford And Deisel Never Intended Cars To Use Gasoline
Quote: Henry Ford's first Model-T was built to run on hemp gasoline and the CAR ITSELF WAS CONSTRUCTED FROM HEMP! On his large estate, Ford was photographed among his hemp fields. The car, 'grown from the soil,' had hemp plastic panels whose impact strength was 10 times stronger than steel; Popular Mechanics, 1941.
Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp; he actually ran the thing on peanut oil for the 1900 World's Fair. Henry Ford used hemp to not only construct cars but also fuel them.

As an alternative to methanol, hemp has at least one glowing report: the plant produces up to four times more cellulose per acre than trees. And a hemp crop grows a little quicker than a forest.

As for an alternative to petroleum...

Hemp grows like mad from border to border in America; so shortages are unlikely. And, unlike petrol, unless we run out of soil, hemp is renewable.

Growing and harvesting the stuff has much less environmental impact than procuring oil.

Hemp fuel is biodegradable; so oil spills become fertilizer not eco-catastrophes.

Hemp fuel does not contribute to sulfur dioxide air poisoning.

Other noxious emissions like carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons are radically slashed by using "biodiesel.

Hemp fuel is nontoxic and only a mild skin irritant; anybody who,s ever cleaned out an old carburetor with gasoline can confirm the same is not true for petrol.

Growing hemp for fuel would be a tremendous boon for American farmers and the agricultural industry, as opposed to people like, say, the Bush family.

And that,s why hemp might not go anywhere as a fuel alternative.
Oil interests are big and donate likewise to politicians, and selling a man on an idea that will cost him more than he'll benefit requires an amazingly skilled orator -- or a gun.

Personally, I don't see where there's much to be debated on this issue.
It all comes down to LEADERSHIP for this Nation, something we sorely lack.

[perdidochas]

Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote:
You had me at the ethanol, yeap. And what this other guy is suggesting about esters makes far more sense. ??? So, you totally ignored the quote and link I gave that talked about the very same process? That fits....
Quote:
But its a simple fact of chemistry that trigylcerides and fatty acids are completely impratical for a combustion engine.

I mean the mollecules are just too big.
<sigh> Why do you refuse to know all facts that I identify for you? Read the links I gave. Rudolph Diesel used peanut oil in one of his engines over 100 years ago. You can buy conversions that burn straight vegetable oil NOW,

Or just take a frying pan, pour in a cup of salad oil, and put it on the stove. Turn the heat to High and tell us what happens.

Straight vegetable oil can be used in diesel engines if either heated to 160 F, or mixed with kerosene or petro diesel. The main problem is that vegetable oil is too viscous.

[poweRob]

perdidochas wrote: Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote:
You had me at the ethanol, yeap. And what this other guy is suggesting about esters makes far more sense. ??? So, you totally ignored the quote and link I gave that talked about the very same process? That fits....
Quote:
But its a simple fact of chemistry that trigylcerides and fatty acids are completely impratical for a combustion engine.

I mean the mollecules are just too big.
<sigh> Why do you refuse to know all facts that I identify for you? Read the links I gave. Rudolph Diesel used peanut oil in one of his engines over 100 years ago. You can buy conversions that burn straight vegetable oil NOW,

Or just take a frying pan, pour in a cup of salad oil, and put it on the stove. Turn the heat to High and tell us what happens.

Straight vegetable oil can be used in diesel engines if either heated to 160 F, or mixed with kerosene or petro diesel. The main problem is that vegetable oil is too viscous.

SVO and WVO are fine to run in diesel so long as you keep two tanks. One diesel tank, to crank your car up with and flush your lines when you get to your destination, and the other with SVO or WVO.

Conversions can be done here:

www.greasecar.com
www.greasel.com

All you have to do is collect waste grease from behind restaurants, filter it, and put it in your grease tank. The viscocity is to the benefit when the engine reaches optimum temperatures and turns out to extend engine life because of its viscosity and extra lubricity. I've seen several of these converted cars and they run like a peach and their emission pollutants are far less than petro diesel.

To drive a greasel converted car, you start your car on diesel, get a mile down the road or so, flip a toggle switch and run on grease from then on until you get about a mile from your destination and you flip the toggle back to diesel which flushes the grease out of your engine and lines to make your next start up easy.

Grease via Straight Veg Oil and Waste Veg Oil combusts just fine.

[variant]

Roy L wrote: variant wrote:
Your both wrong about "Biodiesel <sigh> No. I am right. Read the links I gave.
Quote:
Biodesel is made by subjecting triglycerides (as shown in your figures) with a base and methanol to get an ester.
That is one way to use vegetable oil in diesel engines, one that minimizes the engine modifications needed. Another way is by mixing vegetable oil with more volatile fuels using special injectors, etc. Another way is to start the engine with a volatile fuel, then use waste engine heat to pre-heat the vegetable oil before injection.

Read the links I gave.

Yes your right, you can even run a pretty much streight vegtable oil engine with modifications. (I know someone who does this).

I was assumeing it woulden't be termed diesel (I am incorrect as any heavy oil burning engine is a diesel). And, I was giveing the orthadox method of makeing Biodiesel, and diesel fule in general (they refine crude oil in pretty much the same manner).

You'll have to forgive the semantics based snaffu.