Political Crossfire Forums

[Richard Owl Mirror]

An Alternative for Alternative Fuels



What if we could prompt our National fleet of Aircraft, National Trucking as well as our Armed Forces to begin using renewable biodiesel?

Could this facilitate more availability for the passenger vehicles across America?

I firmly believe that the National effort for promoting and promulgating alternative fuel use should not focus exclusively on the Passenger Automobile Industry but, by measures which encourage these alternative fuel sources in the Commercial Aircraft Industry, the National Transportation Industry including Diesel Locomotives, Transport Trucking and Maritime Transportation. Another very important facilitator would be if the nation recognizes the National Security implications of our Military being solely dependent upon fossil fuels from foreign sources, if a major fuel supply failure were to occur.

If these Major consumers of energy converted over to alternative fuel use the market could more easily absorb and expand into the Passenger Automobile market due largely in part to the increased manufacturing capabilities of suppliers worldwide.

References:

[the_explination]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: An Alternative for Alternative Fuels



What if we could prompt our National fleet of Aircraft, National Trucking as well as our Armed Forces to begin using renewable biodiesel?

Could this facilitate more availability for the passenger vehicles across America?

I firmly believe that the National effort for promoting and promulgating alternative fuel use should not focus exclusively on the Passenger Automobile Industry but, by measures which encourage these alternative fuel sources in the Commercial Aircraft Industry, the National Transportation Industry including Diesel Locomotives, Transport Trucking and Maritime Transportation. Another very important facilitator would be if the nation recognizes the National Security implications of our Military being solely dependent upon fossil fuels from foreign sources, if a major fuel supply failure were to occur.

If these Major consumers of energy converted over to alternative fuel use the market could more easily absorb and expand into the Passenger Automobile market due largely in part to the increased manufacturing capabilities of suppliers worldwide.

References:

It would help alot.
Biodesiel is fairly easy and cheap to make, too. (especially when you don't have to pay taxes on it.)

[Richard Owl Mirror]

the_explination wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: An Alternative for Alternative Fuels



What if we could prompt our National fleet of Aircraft, National Trucking as well as our Armed Forces to begin using renewable biodiesel?

Could this facilitate more availability for the passenger vehicles across America?

I firmly believe that the National effort for promoting and promulgating alternative fuel use should not focus exclusively on the Passenger Automobile Industry but, by measures which encourage these alternative fuel sources in the Commercial Aircraft Industry, the National Transportation Industry including Diesel Locomotives, Transport Trucking and Maritime Transportation. Another very important facilitator would be if the nation recognizes the National Security implications of our Military being solely dependent upon fossil fuels from foreign sources, if a major fuel supply failure were to occur.

If these Major consumers of energy converted over to alternative fuel use the market could more easily absorb and expand into the Passenger Automobile market due largely in part to the increased manufacturing capabilities of suppliers worldwide.

References:

It would help alot.
Biodesiel is fairly easy and cheap to make, too. (especially when you don't have to pay taxes on it.)

I think it's much better than the alternative :lol:

[Richard Owl Mirror]

the_explination wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: An Alternative for Alternative Fuels



What if we could prompt our National fleet of Aircraft, National Trucking as well as our Armed Forces to begin using renewable biodiesel?

Could this facilitate more availability for the passenger vehicles across America?

I firmly believe that the National effort for promoting and promulgating alternative fuel use should not focus exclusively on the Passenger Automobile Industry but, by measures which encourage these alternative fuel sources in the Commercial Aircraft Industry, the National Transportation Industry including Diesel Locomotives, Transport Trucking and Maritime Transportation. Another very important facilitator would be if the nation recognizes the National Security implications of our Military being solely dependent upon fossil fuels from foreign sources, if a major fuel supply failure were to occur.

If these Major consumers of energy converted over to alternative fuel use the market could more easily absorb and expand into the Passenger Automobile market due largely in part to the increased manufacturing capabilities of suppliers worldwide.

References:

It would help alot.
Biodesiel is fairly easy and cheap to make, too.
(especially when you don't have to pay taxes on it.)

Do you think an incentive to these various Industries in the form of tax credits or even eliminating the Fuel Tax
would both stimulate research & development as well as assist in their current labor negotiations?
The Airline Industry keeps saying that due to the rise in fuel costs they need wage concessions
from their employees to remain afloat.
Perhaps this type of stimulus would help people keep their jobs too?

[thefranzkafkafront]

Thats Carboxylic acid you got there buddy not diesel, they burn very poorly at best.

Whoever wrote that article clearly isunt too hot on his organic chemistry.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

thefranzkafkafront wrote:

Thats Carboxylic acid you got there buddy not diesel, they burn very poorly at best.

Whoever wrote that article clearly isunt too hot on his organic chemistry.

Well, here is the website where I took it from

http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/biodiesel2.html

Quote: The Chemistry of Biodiesel

It is not necessary to be a chemist to understand where biodiesel comes from and how it is used. However, it is useful to review some of the fundamental chemical principles that are behind biodiesel so that its properties can be understood.

All vegetable oil and animal fats consist primarily of triglyceride molecules as shown schematically below.

R1, R2, and R3 represent the hydrocarbon chain of the fatty acid elements of the triglyceride. Note that there is a three-carbon chain called the glycerol backbone that runs along the left side of the molecule. Extending away from this backbone are the three long fatty acid chains.
In their free form, the fatty acids have the configuration shown below.

where R is a hydrocarbon chain of greater than 10 carbon atoms


The properties of the triglyceride and the biodiesel fuel will be determined by the amounts of each fatty acid that are present in the molecules.

Fatty acids are designated by two numbers: the first number denotes the total number of carbon atoms in the fatty acid and the second is the number of double bonds. For example, 18:1 designates oleic acid which has 18 carbon atoms and one double bond. Table 1 shows the fatty acid compositions of a number of common vegetable oils and animal fats.



http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/index.html

Perhaps somebody should ring up this University and tell them they made a mistake in chemistry?

[thefranzkafkafront]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote:

Thats Carboxylic acid you got there buddy not diesel, they burn very poorly at best.

Whoever wrote that article clearly isunt too hot on his organic chemistry.

Well, here is the website where I took it from

http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/biodiesel2.html

Quote: The Chemistry of Biodiesel

It is not necessary to be a chemist to understand where biodiesel comes from and how it is used. However, it is useful to review some of the fundamental chemical principles that are behind biodiesel so that its properties can be understood.

All vegetable oil and animal fats consist primarily of triglyceride molecules as shown schematically below.

R1, R2, and R3 represent the hydrocarbon chain of the fatty acid elements of the triglyceride. Note that there is a three-carbon chain called the glycerol backbone that runs along the left side of the molecule. Extending away from this backbone are the three long fatty acid chains.
In their free form, the fatty acids have the configuration shown below.

where R is a hydrocarbon chain of greater than 10 carbon atoms


The properties of the triglyceride and the biodiesel fuel will be determined by the amounts of each fatty acid that are present in the molecules.

Fatty acids are designated by two numbers: the first number denotes the total number of carbon atoms in the fatty acid and the second is the number of double bonds. For example, 18:1 designates oleic acid which has 18 carbon atoms and one double bond. Table 1 shows the fatty acid compositions of a number of common vegetable oils and animal fats.



http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/index.html

Perhaps somebody should ring up this University and tell them they made a mistake in chemistry?

Well... yes, the university page you've linked to is right but you've massively misunderstood it.

you woulnd be able to use a trigylceride in an engine becuase it
A woulnt vapourise
B woulnt autoignite underpressure as diesal engines require.

Also I know very well what R stands for, the fact of the matter is the C=O and C-O-H groups on the same end of a carbon atom signify a carboxylic acid, these burn poorly at best becuase there not good reducing agents.

Its very basic organic chemistry.

Its just that the person writing the article has misunderstood what the chemistry was getting at, you'll find neither triglycerides or fatty acids in any sort of fuel, biodiesal is methanol derivatives.


This won't burn in a internal combustion engine.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

VS




I wonder if they way they are displayed makes a difference?

[thefranzkafkafront]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:

VS




I wonder if they way they are displayed makes a difference?

As i've said above, these arnt biodiesals, they will not burn in an internal combustion engine, you've misunderstoof the universaity article, im trying to find a structural forumla of a biodiesal component now.

Both are carboxylic acids, both will not work in an internal combustion engine.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: ~snip~
Well... yes, the university page you've linked to is right but the person righting the article has massively misunderstood it.

you woulnd be able to use a trigylceride in an engine becuase it
A woulnt vapourise
B woulnt autoignite underpressure as diesal engines require.

Also I know very well what R stands for, the fact of the matter is the C=O and C-O-H groups on the same end of a carbon atom signify a carboxylic acid, these burn poorly at best becuase there not good reducing agents.

Its very basic organic chemistry.

Its just that the person writing the article has misunderstood what the chemistry was getting at, you'll find neither triglycerides or fatty acids in any sort of fuel, biodiesal is methanol.
Thanks for the info, I have no knowledge of these things so I tried to rely on what I perceived to be valid resources in formulating the post.

Could I ask, did you visit the LINK marked References?

And what do you think of pursueing this line in seeking to impliment Alternative fuel use in America and around the world?

My reference links have resources for Aviation fuel based on renewable energy sources.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Double post

[thefranzkafkafront]

Thats methanol, that will work in a internal combustion engine, allthough it would probally take some modification.

Its got a bunch of whacky advantages namely being an oxygenate so carbon monoxides less of a problem, allthough its got a huge octane number (140) so im mystafied as to why it would be used in a diesal engine.

With a bit of tinkering your can make plastics out of it.

However its major disadvantage is the time i takes to produce.

And no the way they are displayed (in that manner) dosent make a diffrence.

[Roy L]

thefranzkafkafront wrote:
Thats methanol, that will work in a internal combustion engine, allthough it would probally take some modification. Wrong. It's ethanol. Seems you are a little lacking in your own organic chemistry.

Ethanol works fine in internal combustion engines, all that's needed is a little tuning. However, it is expensive to make. Methanol is cheaper but has a much lower energy content, and is consequently harder to use in unmodified internal combustion engines. Quote:

Its got a bunch of whacky advantages namely being an oxygenate so carbon monoxides less of a problem, allthough its got a huge octane number (140) so im mystafied as to why it would be used in a diesal engine. Maybe it needs the high diesel compression ratio.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote:
Thats methanol, that will work in a internal combustion engine, allthough it would probally take some modification. Wrong. It's ethanol. Seems you are a little lacking in your own organic chemistry.

Ethanol works fine in internal combustion engines, all that's needed is a little tuning. However, it is expensive to make. Methanol is cheaper but has a much lower energy content, and is consequently harder to use in unmodified internal combustion engines.

Well done for once you've got me, your correct that is ethanol, methanol is one carbon less.



Quote:
Quote:

Its got a bunch of whacky advantages namely being an oxygenate so carbon monoxides less of a problem, allthough its got a huge octane number (140) so im mystafied as to why it would be used in a diesal engine. Maybe it needs the high diesel compression ratio.
Nah the trick with diesel is that if you compress it enough in vapour form it autoignites, never known anything about alcohols doing that.

If you could inject the air hot enough it would probally work, but then you'd have to heat the air or inject it fast enough to have the friction do it for you. Im not an engineer but it dosent seem like the bast way to do it.

[Roy L]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/index.html

Perhaps somebody should ring up this University and tell them they made a mistake in chemistry?

Well... yes, the university page you've linked to is right but you've massively misunderstood it.

you woulnd be able to use a trigylceride in an engine becuase it
A woulnt vapourise
B woulnt autoignite underpressure as diesal engines require.
Wrong again. See:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html

While some modifications to the engine are needed to pre-heat the fuel, etc., many vegetable oils can be burned in diesel engines.
Quote:
Also I know very well what R stands for, the fact of the matter is the C=O and C-O-H groups on the same end of a carbon atom signify a carboxylic acid, these burn poorly at best becuase there not good reducing agents.

Its very basic organic chemistry.
Wrong again. Typical vegetable oils contain ample chemical energy for use as motor fuels, they just don't have the vaporization characteristics needed for use in typical unmodified internal combustion engines designed to run on highly volatile petroleum-derived fuels (mainly aliphatic hydrocarbons). That can be solved by mixing the vegetable oil with more volatile fuels, pre-heating it prior to injection, etc.
Quote:
Its just that the person writing the article has misunderstood what the chemistry was getting at, you'll find neither triglycerides or fatty acids in any sort of fuel, biodiesal is methanol derivatives.
Wrong again:

"Vegetable oil can be converted for use in a diesel engine by the process of transesterification. The three ester bonds within a triglyceride are first hydrolysed to form Free Fatty Acids, which are reacted with Methanol or Ethanol to from Methyl or Ethyl fatty acid esters,. This provides a thinner (less viscous) and more volatile fuel, and a by-product of glycerin. The process of transesterification separates the three bio-organic esters from the bond leaving each one as a free aliphatic hydrocarbon chain with a carboxylic acid group at one end."

http://www.bio-power.co.uk/chemi.htm

And furthermore:

" The concept of using vegetable oil as a fuel dates back to 1895 when Dr. Rudolf Diesel developed the first diesel engine to run on vegetable oil. He demonstrated his engine at the World Exhibition in Paris in 1900 and described an experiment using peanut oil as fuel in his engine."

http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/technology.html

[Roy L]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote:
Thats methanol, that will work in a internal combustion engine, allthough it would probally take some modification. Wrong. It's ethanol. Seems you are a little lacking in your own organic chemistry.

Ethanol works fine in internal combustion engines, all that's needed is a little tuning. However, it is expensive to make. Methanol is cheaper but has a much lower energy content, and is consequently harder to use in unmodified internal combustion engines.

Well done for once you've got me, your correct that is ethanol, methanol is one carbon less. ?? For "once"??? :rofl:

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Roy L wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote:
Thats methanol, that will work in a internal combustion engine, allthough it would probally take some modification. Wrong. It's ethanol. Seems you are a little lacking in your own organic chemistry.

Ethanol works fine in internal combustion engines, all that's needed is a little tuning. However, it is expensive to make. Methanol is cheaper but has a much lower energy content, and is consequently harder to use in unmodified internal combustion engines.

Well done for once you've got me, your correct that is ethanol, methanol is one carbon less. ?? For "once"??? :rofl:

Hey RoyL, could you comment on the PREMISE of my original post?
I'd be interested to hear your take on the proposal.

[Roy L]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
Hey RoyL, could you comment on the PREMISE of my original post?
I'd be interested to hear your take on the proposal. Until some effort is made to reduce the total energy inputs of US agriculture, biodiesel makes no economic sense. Sorry. The one aspect that makes sense is using waste vegetable oil from restaurants and food processing plants as motor fuel instead of throwing it away, but you couldn't fuel much of the country's vehicle fleet on that. IMO a reasonable compromise would be for governments to gradually convert their own vehicle fleets to use waste vegetable oil by attrition, until they are using all the waste oil. That would give a better idea of the large-scale economies of biodiesel, the effect on engines and emissions, etc.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Roy L wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
Hey RoyL, could you comment on the PREMISE of my original post?
I'd be interested to hear your take on the proposal.
Until some effort is made to reduce the total energy inputs of US agriculture,
biodiesel makes no economic sense. ~snip~.

Why couldn't all that farm equipment be run on the biodiesel fuel
which stems from the production of agriculture?
Grant all agricultural activity a reprieve from the Federal Fuel tax if they
utilize Bio-fuels in their Industrial agriculture ventures.
Seems like a good return on the investment as well as lowering the cost of doing business,
which in turn should raise their profit margins.

[Roy L]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Roy L wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
Hey RoyL, could you comment on the PREMISE of my original post?
I'd be interested to hear your take on the proposal.
Until some effort is made to reduce the total energy inputs of US agriculture,
biodiesel makes no economic sense. ~snip~.

Why couldn't all that farm equipment be run on the biodiesel fuel
which stems from the production of agriculture? It probably could. That's not the problem. The problem is getting more energy out than you put in. As matters stand now, the fossil fuel energy inputs for typical American farms are comparable to the energy of the food produced. That means the system is not capturing enough solar energy to make up for the fossil energy expended. There is no perpetual motion machine. Quote:
Grant all agricultural activity a reprieve from the Federal Fuel tax if they
utilize Bio-fuels in their Industrial agriculture ventures.
Seems like a good return on the investment as well as lowering the cost of doing business,
which in turn should raise their profit margins. Again, that's not the problem. The problem is that the crops do not yield enough more energy (if any) than the combined non-solar energy inputs to make it worthwhile.

Look, I might as well tell you the punchline: biodiesel only becomes economically feasible for more than waste oil if typical farmers are willing to learn something from the low-energy-input agriculture sector: organic farmers. And that won't happen until the subsidized use of fossil fuels for farming stops.