Political Crossfire Forums

[Snarf]

cap'n queasy wrote: Can you point some this "arrogant Christianity forcing" out to me?

How can you force Christianity on someone? You cannot force them to be a Christian even if you had total and complete control over every aspect of their lives. Saying that adultery, lying, stealing, killing etc is wrong and that Christianity reflects this standard is not "forcing Christianity down anyone anyone's throat". That's hyperbole.

To think that way is to be ignorant of the principles of Christianity. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

Ignorant doesn't mean stupid, it means uninformed, generally with an attitude that summarily rejects ever becoming informed. And it is this attitude that hates Christianity. They interpret love as hate, and guidance as forcing.

It IS ignorant to think this way.
The ‘love and guidance’ of Christians has killed millions of people who weren't. It is not ignorance to know of Christianity, and its history, and hate it for both its past and its current practice and dogma. Most critics of Christianity know a great deal about it and see it for what it is; one faith among many. It is its adherents who can't see anything wrong, including the atrocities their faith has committed in the name of God.

When Christians stop defending the Church from inquiry and the faith from reason, there is a chance that it could become something more than its sectarian clarion call for all the world to accept Jesus as our Lord or go to eternal Hell. As long as it sees itself as the One True Faith, all the education in the world won’t help people not to hate its policy of extreme intolerance for others and their perfectly valid non-Christian beliefs.

When we want your love and guidance, we'll give you a call. Until then, do as your savior did and seek God before all other things, leaving the rest of us alone to find Him in whatever manner we may or may not choose...

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Until then, do as your savior did and seek God before all other things, leaving the rest of us alone to find Him in whatever manner we may or may not choose...

That is not what Y'shua did, and that is not what He told us to do.

Your just trying to baselessly shut up an opinion that you do not like.

[cap'n queasy]

BTW you are bringing up stuff that happened a thousand years ago to prove Christianity is trying to force itself on you.

[Snarf]

cap'n queasy wrote: BTW you are bringing up stuff that happened a thousand years ago to prove Christianity is trying to force itself on you.
No, I am bring up the fact that Christians cannot acknowledge their continuous fight to maintain their historical place in the public square even as many other faiths seek a level and respectful playing field.

Whether it is BC versus BCE, or prayers in the statehouse and public schools, or adding words to our money and constitution, such as "So help me God" which is not in the presidential oath of office, Christians are desperate to return to the days when their faith was the only faith that mattered and all non-believers were souls destined to go to Hell for their rejection of the majority faith, and therefore easily cast aside.

The faith of Jesus is not the faith practiced by His believers. They want to set their policies for all people, like stem-cell research. He asked if those near him cared to become fishers of men. He did not help write a government policy to make fishing tax exempt, for the good of everyone of course, whether they wanted it or not.

I don’t have to force someone into to something to change their life. All I have to do is take away their choices, as Christians do when they wish not to present themselves as one of many options, but to make sure that the table is tilted in their direction, as it has been in the past…

[cap'n queasy]

I believe that supposition is accurate. If you don't feel like saying "So help me God" you don't have to.

Most people don't think it's that much of a big deal. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Quote: They want to set their policies for all people, like stem-cell research. He asked if those near him cared to become fishers of men. He did not help write a government policy to make fishing tax exempt, for the good of everyone of course, whether they wanted it or not.


You know what, if it were only Christian churches that have tax-exempt status you would have a valid point.

But that's not how it is, is it? All religion's place of worship have tax exempt status and there is no one who wants to change that into just being for Christianity.

[Snarf]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Until then, do as your savior did and seek God before all other things, leaving the rest of us alone to find Him in whatever manner we may or may not choose...

That is not what Y'shua did, and that is not what He told us to do.

Your just trying to baselessly shut up an opinion that you do not like.
Jesus did not seek God before all other things? Was He busy with the family he rejected? Or His children? Or His business? What was He doing the desert, getting a tan?

I welcome all opinions. The opinions of Christians are no more valid than the opinions of others, just as their faith is no more valid than any other. As a faith, it gets a seat at the table and that is all it gets.

If you have the actual words of Jesus, you should let the scholars know that as they believe they do not and would be very interested. What they have is what others remembered of Him and wrote down many years later. Jesus apparently never wrote anything down. I wonder if He did that intentionally, knowing that He found God by breaking away from His childhood faith to go and seek God on His own???

[cap'n queasy]

Let's just stick with something concrete.

You said that tax exempt status showed the government favored Christianity.

I said all religious institutions get tax exampt status, regardless of the type of faith they represent.

Are you going to refute that or are you going to continue with the smears and innuendo?

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I welcome all opinions.

Inaccurate, you blatantly try to undermine Christianity on a semi-daily basis with smears and innuendos.

I never have seen you say Islam was untrue or hypocritical, or Buddhism. Yet you say this daily about Christianity.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: you should let the scholars know that as they believe they do not

Aminority of scholars hold that opinion.

Which is nothing more than an opinion. The majority of Bible scholars have now admitted that the NT dates from just after the crucifixion. Documentary evidence proves this. There's no real evidence that shows they are not accurate.

[Snarf]

cap'n queasy wrote: I believe that supposition is accurate. If you don't feel like saying "So help me God" you don't have to.

Most people don't think it's that much of a big deal. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Quote: They want to set their policies for all people, like stem-cell research. He asked if those near him cared to become fishers of men. He did not help write a government policy to make fishing tax exempt, for the good of everyone of course, whether they wanted it or not.


You know what, if it were only Christian churches that have tax-exempt status you would have a valid point.

But that's not how it is, is it? All religion's place of worship have tax exempt status and there is no one who wants to change that into just being for Christianity.
You are so very concrete. Being tax exempt is an example of asking something from the State related to the Faith. Jesus never asked anything from Rome but to be left in peace to do as He pleased. He didn't need or want anything from the government as His focus was on God. What happened in politics was irrelevant. The State was irrelevant.

Seeking and serving God was all that mattered to Him as far as we know. He went to His death for God and it didn't matter to Him whether Pilate respected His beliefs or not as His faith was beyond the reach of elected officials. Jesus not only wouldn't get out the vote, based on what we know of Him, He wouldn't even bother to vote Himself as God doesn't put His name on the ballot.

The Faith now tries to the control the State. If it guided itself and left the politics to those who could make a reasonable set of policies for all people of all faiths, it would be a better Faith and we would have a better government. But most of you want a Christian country and a Christian world. That is the very root of this hatred you feel so very offended by...

[Snarf]

cap'n queasy wrote: Let's just stick with something concrete.

You said that tax exempt status showed the government favored Christianity.

I said all religious institutions get tax exampt status, regardless of the type of faith they represent.

Are you going to refute that or are you going to continue with the smears and innuendo?
See above...

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Until then, do as your savior did and seek God before all other things, leaving the rest of us alone to find Him in whatever manner we may or may not choose...

That is not what Y'shua did, and that is not what He told us to do.

Your just trying to baselessly shut up an opinion that you do not like.
That is what Jesus did, and it's precisely what Jesus commanded his followers to do.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven, and all other things shall be added unto you.

If you don't find the Kingdom of Heaven down here on Earth, you're never going to find it in the afterlife either..

[cap'n queasy]

Snarf wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: I believe that supposition is accurate. If you don't feel like saying "So help me God" you don't have to.

Most people don't think it's that much of a big deal. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Quote: They want to set their policies for all people, like stem-cell research. He asked if those near him cared to become fishers of men. He did not help write a government policy to make fishing tax exempt, for the good of everyone of course, whether they wanted it or not.


You know what, if it were only Christian churches that have tax-exempt status you would have a valid point.

But that's not how it is, is it? All religion's place of worship have tax exempt status and there is no one who wants to change that into just being for Christianity.
You are so very concrete. Being tax exempt is an example of asking something from the State related to the Faith. Jesus never asked anything from Rome but to be left in peace to do as He pleased. He didn't need or want anything from the government as His focus was on God. What happened in politics was irrelevant. The State was irrelevant.

Seeking and serving God was all that mattered to Him as far as we know. He went to His death for God and it didn't matter to Him whether Pilate respected His beliefs or not as His faith was beyond the reach of elected officials. Jesus not only wouldn't get out the vote, based on what we know of Him, He wouldn't even bother to vote Himself as God doesn't put His name on the ballot.

The Faith now tries to the control the State. If it guided itself and left the politics to those who could make a reasonable set of policies for all people of all faiths, it would be a better Faith and we would have a better government. But most of you want a Christian country and a Christian world. That is the very root of this hatred you feel so very offended by...

The fact that all Faiths enjoy the same exact tax exempt status precludes your opinion that one particular Faith is endorsed by the state.

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Until then, do as your savior did and seek God before all other things, leaving the rest of us alone to find Him in whatever manner we may or may not choose...

That is not what Y'shua did, and that is not what He told us to do.

Your just trying to baselessly shut up an opinion that you do not like.
That is what Jesus did, and it's precisely what Jesus commanded his followers to do.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven, and all other things shall be added unto you.

If you don't find the Kingdom of Heaven down here on Earth, you're never going to find it in the afterlife either..

Where does that say anything about not telling people of Y'shua?

You say I am not seeking the "Kingdom of God on Earth"
Snarf says I am and that this is wrong.

I don't think either of you understand anything I say.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Until then, do as your savior did and seek God before all other things, leaving the rest of us alone to find Him in whatever manner we may or may not choose...

That is not what Y'shua did, and that is not what He told us to do.

Your just trying to baselessly shut up an opinion that you do not like.
That is what Jesus did, and it's precisely what Jesus commanded his followers to do.

Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven, and all other things shall be added unto you.

If you don't find the Kingdom of Heaven down here on Earth, you're never going to find it in the afterlife either..

Where does that say anything about not telling people of Y'shua?

You say I am not seeking the "Kingdom of God on Earth"
Snarf says I am and that this is wrong.

I don't think either of you understand anything I say.
Generally speaking, you are free to do whatsoever you choose, more especially in this nation since America was dedicated to the ideal of freedom and liberty whereby all men would be free to act in accordance with the spirit of their better conscience, so long as this did not interfere w/ the rights or liberties of others.

That said, it's usually understood to be wise not to speak too much, until you have found the Kingdom of Heaven. This is precisely b/c you are under a Law whereby you must reap everything that you have sown, and if you go around telling people something that is false (which, until you have found the Kingdom of Heaven, is a very real and very distinct possibility), you will be forced to reap the tares that such lies have wrought. These tares will delay and inhibit you from coming into the Kingdom of Heaven, until you deal w/ the negative consequences of your own actions in a more constructive manner.

For this reason, silence is generally preferred, since it's a much faster and more rapid way of coming into the Kingdom. But you are free to do as you please.

[cap'n queasy]

Well, don't hold your breath expecting me to be silent. :lol:

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, don't hold your breath expecting me to be silent. :lol:
And so you should not expect to gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven anytime soon.. :-|

[cap'n queasy]

Let's let YHWH be the judge of that, shall we?

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Let's let YHWH be the judge of that, shall we?
You reap exactly what you sow.

Just don't forget that.

[Snarf]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: you should let the scholars know that as they believe they do not

Aminority of scholars hold that opinion.

Which is nothing more than an opinion. The majority of Bible scholars have now admitted that the NT dates from just after the crucifixion. Documentary evidence proves this. There's no real evidence that shows they are not accurate.
Without resorting to a whole set of contrived explanations, you can't even state, truthfully, what the last words Jesus spoke before he died were. In the four well-known Gospels, there are three versions of "And Jesus said 'blank', and then He died". His words as we know them are His follower’s version of what they remember Him saying. That is both easy to see and well acknowledged by Christian scholars.

Exactly how long will it take you to admit, before God, that we do not know exactly what Jesus did or exactly what He said, as His life has passed into the mists of time, and has been used for purposes far from holy by men seeking both heavenly and earthly blessings since the day He died on the cross?

Jesus sought out God as few men have. He rejected the conventions of His time and His early faith to seek God in a way no one had before. In doing so, He opened a doorway to God that required the faithful to leave the world of man and seek the presence of God. At no time did He suggest making the world of man a heaven on earth, or a land filled with only moral people under the guidance of Christians. That, like all other things, was up to the will of God.

As long as Christianity is just another point of view, another resource of political opinion seeking its own influence in governmental affairs, it will be open to the most extreme forms of criticism, as should all sectarian forces trying to set policy for everyone else. Jesus said in essence, “Rome as a holy and Christian state? What is Rome when compared to God?” The Christian army may go forward to net souls, but it does so armed only with the Word of God.

Modern day Christians try to carry their faith on the backs government policies and armed soldiers. Jesus had the sword put away and went willingly to His death for the God He loved. When Christians can once again have a faith like that, unprotected or reinforced by the State, those of us who are critical of it will have little choice but to acknowledge its otherworldly acts of charity, piety, and faith. Christianity should be a profound way of seeking God but as it is practiced today, it is little more than a political action committee…