Political Crossfire Forums

[Kt]

UrielsFyre wrote: Whether or not people intend "gay" to sound insulting when used as a term for "stupid" or "lame," it really is insulting for a lot of gay people. Imagine being a young gay teenager, still struggling with your sexuality. Every day you hear people say "Damn, that is so gay" with a negative connotation. After a while it is going to give you the impression, accurate or not, that being gay is a negative thing.

Just try saying "Damn, that is so Mexican" and see how far you get before everyone jumps down your throat as a racist.
^ What he said. It's really really annoying, and yes, there is worse.

[John Galt]

UrielsFyre wrote: Whether or not people intend "gay" to sound insulting when used as a term for "stupid" or "lame," it really is insulting for a lot of gay people. Imagine being a young gay teenager, still struggling with your sexuality. Every day you hear people say "Damn, that is so gay" with a negative connotation. After a while it is going to give you the impression, accurate or not, that being gay is a negative thing.

Just try saying "Damn, that is so Mexican" and see how far you get before everyone jumps down your throat as a racist.

But why should I care? If I do not care if I am insulting to others and others collective disgust for my complete lack of sensitivity to the subject is there anything you can do about it? No. It's just a colloquilism and if some young teenage homosexual gets "hurt" by it perhaps he should grow a pair and forget about it. Also, so what if others view being a homosexual as negative? Whining about a word that homosexuals hijacked in the first place being hijacked again doesn't help much.

[Enoch]

John Galt wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Whether or not people intend "gay" to sound insulting when used as a term for "stupid" or "lame," it really is insulting for a lot of gay people. Imagine being a young gay teenager, still struggling with your sexuality. Every day you hear people say "Damn, that is so gay" with a negative connotation. After a while it is going to give you the impression, accurate or not, that being gay is a negative thing.

Just try saying "Damn, that is so Mexican" and see how far you get before everyone jumps down your throat as a racist.

But why should I care? If I do not care if I am insulting to others and others collective disgust for my complete lack of sensitivity to the subject is there anything you can do about it? No. It's just a colloquilism and if some young teenage homosexual gets "hurt" by it perhaps he should grow a pair and forget about it. Also, so what if others view being a homosexual as negative? Whining about a word that homosexuals hijacked in the first place being hijacked again doesn't help much.

How nice of you Galt. "Don't like it? Well, what are you going to do about it?" :roll:

I didn't say you can't say it, or that I was going to try to stop you. I was just saying that it is insulting to some people. It's really easy to say "grow a pair" when its not you on the recieving end of it.

[John Galt]

I never pretended I was a nice person. But the fact of the matter is complaining over a word that has multiple times already changed meaning to something else completely different is silly, for the word does not claim some magnificant etymology. Moreoever, while toonarmy claims there is a negative origin I am still confused as to why it means "stupid." I talked about "gyped" and how it comes from gypsys and their associated crime. But, like I said, no one contends homosexuality is "stupid." It's just a new colloquialism and if some people are going to cry about it then oh well.

[Enoch]

John Galt wrote: I never pretended I was a nice person. But the fact of the matter is complaining over a word that has multiple times already changed meaning to something else completely different is silly, for the word does not claim some magnificant etymology. Moreoever, while toonarmy claims there is a negative origin I am still confused as to why it means "stupid." I talked about "gyped" and how it comes from gypsys and their associated crime. But, like I said, no one contends homosexuality is "stupid." It's just a new colloquialism and if some people are going to cry about it then oh well.
Okay, so why does your gypsey example even matter in this discussion?

The point of my post was that people DO find it insulting, and the whole "lighten up" suggestion is easier said than done for some.

[John Galt]

UrielsFyre wrote: John Galt wrote: I never pretended I was a nice person. But the fact of the matter is complaining over a word that has multiple times already changed meaning to something else completely different is silly, for the word does not claim some magnificant etymology. Moreoever, while toonarmy claims there is a negative origin I am still confused as to why it means "stupid." I talked about "gyped" and how it comes from gypsys and their associated crime. But, like I said, no one contends homosexuality is "stupid." It's just a new colloquialism and if some people are going to cry about it then oh well.
Okay, so why does your gypsey example even matter in this discussion?

The point of my post was that people DO find it insulting, and the whole "lighten up" suggestion is easier said than done for some.

It matters because unlike calling something "gay" meaning "stupid," gypsys have for a long time actually been viewed as what the expression means, both when we talked of them as the ethnicity long ago and now as the travelling criminal vagabonds which include multiple ethnicities. "Gays" are not viewed as "stupid" nor "rubbish."

[Kt]

=

?

[John Galt]

Brittish say "rubbish" alot. At least on American potrayals of brits in media. Bah! Humbug.

[F'losrix]

John Galt wrote: But, like I said, no one contends homosexuality is "stupid."
This is a false statement. I encounter contentions that homosexuality and homosexuals are stupid daily in debates. The line of reasoning used to justify such a stance generally relies on an oversimplification of human sexuality, which is then employed to portray us as stupid for supposedly not understanding what 'everyone else' is alleged to know.

StrangerWitCandy hit it pretty much on the nose.

[F'losrix]

Valdimar wrote: It all comes down to intent of use. One of my greatest friends is Jewish. According to him, he clips 'jew-pons' (coupons) and always comments on being Jewish (cheap) when it comes to shopping. Now, I will admit right here that I use those terms directed at him in the way he uses them toward himself. Only to him though because we both know I don't mean any malicious intent and that we are childishly exploiting stereotypes in the light of.. lightening up and laughing at ourselves.
I suppose it depends on whether you're laughing at yourself purely out of good humour or using the word in self-deprecation as a reflection of your own internalized homophobia.

When I hear a gay person use the word as a pejorative, it gives me the impression that they lack self-esteem. Big turnoff.

[F'losrix]

"gay

1178, "full of joy or mirth," from O.Fr. gai "gay, merry," perhaps from Frank. *gahi (cf. O.H.G. wahi "pretty"). Meaning "brilliant, showy" is from c.1300. OED gives 1951 as earliest date for slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.), but this is certainly too late; gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in N. Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang;" the term gey cat (gey is a Scot. variant of gay) was used as far back as 1893 in Amer.Eng. for "young hobo," one who is new on the road and usually in the company of an older tramp, with catamite connotations. But Josiah Flynt ["Tramping With Tramps," 1905] defines gay cat as, "An amateur tramp who works when his begging courage fails him." Gey cats also were said to be tramps who offered sexual services to women. The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at least 1920. Rawson ["Wicked Words"] notes a male prostitute using gay in reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto ["20th Century Words"] calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S. Hays. The word gay in the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back to 1637. Gay as a noun meaning "a (usually male) homosexual" is attested from 1971."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=g&p=2

Do we really need to debate further whether 'gay' used as a pejorative is based on society's history of viewing homosexuals as being weak persons with questionable morals?

Given the amount of vitriol hurled regularly at us even today, I'm forced to reject the argument that it has grown beyond this association.

[Enoch]

John Galt wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John Galt wrote: I never pretended I was a nice person. But the fact of the matter is complaining over a word that has multiple times already changed meaning to something else completely different is silly, for the word does not claim some magnificant etymology. Moreoever, while toonarmy claims there is a negative origin I am still confused as to why it means "stupid." I talked about "gyped" and how it comes from gypsys and their associated crime. But, like I said, no one contends homosexuality is "stupid." It's just a new colloquialism and if some people are going to cry about it then oh well.
Okay, so why does your gypsey example even matter in this discussion?

The point of my post was that people DO find it insulting, and the whole "lighten up" suggestion is easier said than done for some.

It matters because unlike calling something "gay" meaning "stupid," gypsys have for a long time actually been viewed as what the expression means, both when we talked of them as the ethnicity long ago and now as the travelling criminal vagabonds which include multiple ethnicities. "Gays" are not viewed as "stupid" nor "rubbish."
You haven't traveled much have you? Take a look around, at all the anti-gay sentiment in this country and try again to tell me that gays are not viewed as rubbish, stupid, or useless by many.

[StrangerWitCandy]

UrielsFyre wrote: John Galt wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John Galt wrote: I never pretended I was a nice person. But the fact of the matter is complaining over a word that has multiple times already changed meaning to something else completely different is silly, for the word does not claim some magnificant etymology. Moreoever, while toonarmy claims there is a negative origin I am still confused as to why it means "stupid." I talked about "gyped" and how it comes from gypsys and their associated crime. But, like I said, no one contends homosexuality is "stupid." It's just a new colloquialism and if some people are going to cry about it then oh well.
Okay, so why does your gypsey example even matter in this discussion?

The point of my post was that people DO find it insulting, and the whole "lighten up" suggestion is easier said than done for some.

It matters because unlike calling something "gay" meaning "stupid," gypsys have for a long time actually been viewed as what the expression means, both when we talked of them as the ethnicity long ago and now as the travelling criminal vagabonds which include multiple ethnicities. "Gays" are not viewed as "stupid" nor "rubbish."
You haven't traveled much have you? Take a look around, at all the anti-gay sentiment in this country and try again to tell me that gays are not viewed as rubbish, stupid, or useless by many.

His entire arguement is based on the incorrect notion that gays are not viewed as inferior by many (at some times most) in society. Then of course his other arguement is that even if they are, why should he care? People have the right to view gays as inferior, thats true. But obviously gays aren't going to like this and many will find it offensive. Hence people having a problem with the use of "gay" as a put-down. Hell I could go around saying "thats so black" to insult things I don't like and not give a damn, but it'd be pretty naive of me to try and argue to a black person that there's no logical reason for them to be offended by it.

The only time I ever use "gay" to describe something these days is when something is actually pretty gay. For example, "thats so gay" might describe Richard Simmons in pink spandex, but not a TV show I simply didn't like. To me there's a difference because one is being used to describe something as acutally gay (or stereotypically gay), and the other is merely using the word "gay" to insult something as if anything gay is inherently bad.

[Starnexus]

You know I consider myself a pretty flexible person but when people say "that's so gay" it really gets under my skin.. I usually call them on it whenever I can. But gosh I hate that so much. What really bugs me is they respond with "you can't take a joke?!" I mean first of all all jokes are based on truth and the fact of the matter is people don't say "that's so Indian" or "that's so Jewish" why because it's a derogetory statement towards a group of people so therefore why can they not see that "that's so gay" is a derogetory statment towards gays?

[Demonic Spoon]

It doesn't matter what was said. What matters is the intent behind it. If you are offended by someone using the word "gay" as a synonym for "stupid" or something, then you are too damn easily offended.

[Lumina]

John Galt wrote: Demonic Spoon wrote: ...

Yeah, it did. It ment "happy". So, Toonarmy, with your logic, we could say that calling homosexuals 'gay' was offensive to happy people.

Well happy people could collectivley be offended that a perfectly good word was stolen. Now, some other chaps are stealing it for another use. I typically use it as a colloquialism for "stupid" or I suppose "rubbish."

If "homophobe" can mean something other than "same fear" than "gay" can mean stupid. Being sensitive to other people's sensitivities to a point where you have to constantly be worried that you may hurt someone's feelings since no one has any skin any more is, well, insert the "stupid" colloquialism here.

Tell it, brother! This exquisite hypersensitivity contributes to the odious and ever-growing culture of "victimhood."