Political Crossfire Forums

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

My response assumed that since you were in the Christianity thread you were asking for the Christian perspective.

Your personal opinions are of course your own, but selfishness and pride are universally accepted by Christians not only as sinful but nearly the very origin of sin itself. Not because they hurt others but because they HURT THE SINNER himself.

You are correct in thinking I wanted a Christian response and I do appreciate your response in that regard. While I can agree that, in being selfish, one hurts them self and/or others, than it is wrong (sinful if you like). However, I do not agree with the christian belief (assuming it is a christian belief) that wanting to win much money to do things for yourself and others that you aren't currently capable of doing is selfish which is sin full.
Also, I don't understand how having pride in yourself is sinful. If you are proud for the work you do, why is that bad? As long as you (again, assuming a Christian mind set here) acknowledge that God is the reason why you are good at your job, accomplished your goal, etc, then why is it wrong to be proud of yourself? Or your children? Or your home?

First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know. But generally speaking superfical prayer for non spiritual results are considered selfish acts as best we can determine such things.

I think C.S. Lewis deals with pride in the most simple and direct way. The kind of pride you are describing is NOT the pride I am suggesting is the very central aspect of sin. But notice EXACTLY what you wrote because it is a critical distinction, "proud of your work" is not the pride I am worried about.

Here is how Lewis puts it in Mere Christianity;

"Pleasure in being praised in not pride. The child who is patted on th back for doing a lesson well, the woman whose bearuty is praised by her lover, the saved soul th whom Christ says "Well done" are pleased and ought to be. For here the pleasure lies not in what you have pleased someone you wanted (and rightly wanted) to please. The trouble begins when you pass from thinking, 'I have pleased him; all is well,' to thinking, 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' The more you delight in yourself and the less you delight in the praise, the worse you are becoming. When you delight wholly in yourself and do not care about the praise at all, you have reached the bottom."

Chesterton in Heretics, as usual takes one sentence to sum it all up

"Vanity is active;it desires the applause of infinite multitudes; pride is passive, desiring only the applause of one person, which it already has."

This makes more sense - thank you for supply this. I have never said 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' !! Quite the opposite actually. I usually give more credit to others when I work on a team (sometimes even more than the others probably should get) and I don't usually accept Thank You's very well either.

I also appreciate this: "First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know.". I would like to see more people adopt this type of attitude in the world.
Again, I appreciate your responses!

Be careful don't want to be to PROUD of your humility!!!! LOL

:lol:
I can't win!

Sure you can. :-D

Aqualung · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 2260 Location: Washington

toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?
Well, I think gambling is wrong in the first place. You're getting something for nothing. You're receiving a whole bunch of money without having to do anything for it. For that reason, it tends to fuel greed. So, praying for it is doubly wrong. It's like praying that the bullets you shoot will hit that neighbour who you hate. You don't pray for your sins to work well.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

CrossEyedMary wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?
Well, I think gambling is wrong in the first place. You're getting something for nothing. You're receiving a whole bunch of money without having to do anything for it. For that reason, it tends to fuel greed. So, praying for it is doubly wrong. It's like praying that the bullets you shoot will hit that neighbour who you hate. You don't pray for your sins to work well.

I feel gambling is wrong only if it is taking money from a needed area of your life (money to pay bills for example) and using that money to bet or gamble. If you have a few extra dollars in your pocket that would go for a can of soda or a candy bar or pack of gum, buy a lottery ticket. No harm no foul.

cassandrabandra · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 853

toddytodd wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?
Well, I think gambling is wrong in the first place. You're getting something for nothing. You're receiving a whole bunch of money without having to do anything for it. For that reason, it tends to fuel greed. So, praying for it is doubly wrong. It's like praying that the bullets you shoot will hit that neighbour who you hate. You don't pray for your sins to work well.

I feel gambling is wrong only if it is taking money from a needed area of your life (money to pay bills for example) and using that money to bet or gamble. If you have a few extra dollars in your pocket that would go for a can of soda or a candy bar or pack of gum, buy a lottery ticket. No harm no foul.

LOL - the whole principle is wrong. praying to find a parking place close to the store, or to find the right pair of shoes, and this praying to win the lottery is all the same. If you do this your understanding of spirituality is still at the level of a small child.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

cassandrabandra wrote: toddytodd wrote: CrossEyedMary wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?
Well, I think gambling is wrong in the first place. You're getting something for nothing. You're receiving a whole bunch of money without having to do anything for it. For that reason, it tends to fuel greed. So, praying for it is doubly wrong. It's like praying that the bullets you shoot will hit that neighbour who you hate. You don't pray for your sins to work well.

I feel gambling is wrong only if it is taking money from a needed area of your life (money to pay bills for example) and using that money to bet or gamble. If you have a few extra dollars in your pocket that would go for a can of soda or a candy bar or pack of gum, buy a lottery ticket. No harm no foul.

LOL - the whole principle is wrong. praying to find a parking place close to the store, or to find the right pair of shoes, and this praying to win the lottery is all the same. If you do this your understanding of spirituality is still at the level of a small child.

I respectfully disagree, if I understand what you are saying. Praying to win the lottery, get a close parking space (etc.) is praying to benefit oneself. I believe it no different than praying your test results come back positive (or negative as the case might be), you get the job, you get to your destination safe, etc. It is to benefit oneself, with the only difference being what you see that you may need and what you see you may want.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

CrossEyedMary wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?
Well, I think gambling is wrong in the first place. You're getting something for nothing. You're receiving a whole bunch of money without having to do anything for it. For that reason, it tends to fuel greed. So, praying for it is doubly wrong. It's like praying that the bullets you shoot will hit that neighbour who you hate. You don't pray for your sins to work well.

That's pretty much the way I see it, too.

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

CrossEyedMary wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?
Well, I think gambling is wrong in the first place. You're getting something for nothing. You're receiving a whole bunch of money without having to do anything for it. For that reason, it tends to fuel greed. So, praying for it is doubly wrong. It's like praying that the bullets you shoot will hit that neighbour who you hate. You don't pray for your sins to work well.

If you think gambling is wrong, then it is wrong for you. Getting something for nothing seems to be a enemy for christians & I don't know why. Working hard fo rsomething does build character & make you appreciate it more yadda yadda yadda....
But there is nothing wrong with getting something for nothing or getting something free.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:53 am Post subject:

I think gambling as a form of recreation is not wrong, any more than playing Skee-Ball is wrong. Consider going out to dinner and the movies, buying some popcorn, and having a nice evening. That's what, say 20 for dinner, 8 for the ticket, and 5 for the popcorn? So you're down 35 bucks on the night. What's the difference between that and going to the Casino, playing some Blackjack or maybe some slots, and ending up 20-40 dollars down on the night? In both cases, you've had a fun night out and spent a little bit of money. Ok, I'm fine with that. It's where you begin to drop 300-400 a night and can't afford to support your obligations anymore that it becomes a dangerous addiction.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Todd D. wrote: I think gambling as a form of recreation is not wrong, any more than playing Skee-Ball is wrong. Consider going out to dinner and the movies, buying some popcorn, and having a nice evening. That's what, say 20 for dinner, 8 for the ticket, and 5 for the popcorn? So you're down 35 bucks on the night. What's the difference between that and going to the Casino, playing some Blackjack or maybe some slots, and ending up 20-40 dollars down on the night? In both cases, you've had a fun night out and spent a little bit of money. Ok, I'm fine with that. It's where you begin to drop 300-400 a night and can't afford to support your obligations anymore that it becomes a dangerous addiction.

Quote: It's where you begin to drop 300-400 a night and can't afford to support your obligations anymore that it becomes a dangerous addiction.
Exactly. Many things that are considered bad (drinking, gambling, etc) are fine if they are done under restraint - moderation.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:16 am Post subject:

Yes, but there is a great deal of difference between enjoying it as a form of recreation, and praying for the outcome that runs contrary to statistical probability. I would no more "pray" at the blackjack table than I would "pray" that the kids win at the end of Mighty Ducks.

I would imagine that if you are putting so much on a prayer for divine intervention could seriously alter the way that you live your life, you are putting far too much on the line for it to be consdered "recreation".

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Todd D. wrote: Yes, but there is a great deal of difference between enjoying it as a form of recreation, and praying for the outcome that runs contrary to statistical probability. I would no more "pray" at the blackjack table than I would "pray" that the kids win at the end of Mighty Ducks.

I would imagine that if you are putting so much on a prayer for divine intervention could seriously alter the way that you live your life, you are putting far too much on the line for it to be consdered "recreation".

There is not much difference (if at all) between enjoying it as a form of recreation, and praying for the outcome that runs contrary to statistical probability. By applying this logic (it's OK if it's for recreation, but not if it run against the rules of probability), it would appear that you are saying that you can only enjoy recreation that doesn't run contrary to probability(?).
Quote: I would imagine that if you are putting so much on a prayer for divine intervention could seriously alter the way that you live your life, you are putting far too much on the line for it to be considered "recreation". I don't understand this logic at all. Anything can be life altering. Playing $1 lottery ticket, if the money is available to be played (therefore not submitting anyone to hardship), is not putting too much on the line to be considered recreation.
To each his own. Some people know what is too much for them to handle. If playing a $1 lottery ticket once a month is too much for you to handle, then by all means don't do it. You know your life better than anyone on earth, so you know what is right and what isn't for you.
With the exception of not playing if you can't afford it (which might constitute an addiction), I still do not believe gambling is wrong, much less sinful.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject:

Quote: There is not much difference (if at all) between enjoying it as a form of recreation, and praying for the outcome that runs contrary to statistical probability. By applying this logic (it's OK if it's for recreation, but not if it run against the rules of probability), it would appear that you are saying that you can only enjoy recreation that doesn't run contrary to probability(?).
Skydiving is recreation. Praying to not die even though you forgot to pack a chute is different. Likewise, the reason that you are praying is to defy certain rules of probability that you knew going in.

Quote: I don't understand this logic at all. Anything can be life altering. Playing $1 lottery ticket, if the money is available to be played (therefore not submitting anyone to hardship), is not putting too much on the line to be considered recreation.
To each his own. Some people know what is too much for them to handle. If playing a $1 lottery ticket once a month is too much for you to handle, then by all means don't do it. You know your life better than anyone on earth, so you know what is right and what isn't for you.
With the exception of not playing if you can't afford it (which might constitute an addiction), I still do not believe gambling is wrong, much less sinful.
Fair enough. I was referring more to casino games where the payouts are a little different.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Todd D. wrote: Quote: There is not much difference (if at all) between enjoying it as a form of recreation, and praying for the outcome that runs contrary to statistical probability. By applying this logic (it's OK if it's for recreation, but not if it run against the rules of probability), it would appear that you are saying that you can only enjoy recreation that doesn't run contrary to probability(?).
Skydiving is recreation. Praying to not die even though you forgot to pack a chute is different. Likewise, the reason that you are praying is to defy certain rules of probability that you knew going in.

Quote: I don't understand this logic at all. Anything can be life altering. Playing $1 lottery ticket, if the money is available to be played (therefore not submitting anyone to hardship), is not putting too much on the line to be considered recreation.
To each his own. Some people know what is too much for them to handle. If playing a $1 lottery ticket once a month is too much for you to handle, then by all means don't do it. You know your life better than anyone on earth, so you know what is right and what isn't for you.
With the exception of not playing if you can't afford it (which might constitute an addiction), I still do not believe gambling is wrong, much less sinful.
Fair enough. I was referring more to casino games where the payouts are a little different.

As far as casino games go, I don't know much about that because I don't have $10k to play with in Las Vegas
:)
Skydiving is a recreation, however, I don't know of anyone who bets they will survive if they don't pack a parachute (but I suppose there are some 'hard corers' out there that do).
Quote: Likewise, the reason that you are praying is to defy certain rules of probability that you knew going in. Partially true. Many can't even comprehend the odds that are against them in these games! Just because 'the odds are against [you]', that shouldn't stop people from trying things. The odds are against many artists or actors that they will be discovered and be successful, but many keep trying and some make it. The 'odds' are against people that they will find the ideal mate the first time around, but many keep trying (etc). Same can be said of playing the lottery. Most everything in life is against you (one could argue that this is the basis of competition), but people keep trying. It is in our nature I believe.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Here is another question for everyone along the same lines of this thread.

What is the difference (or is there one?) in playing the lottery and playing in a raffle?

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

toddytodd wrote: Here is another question for everyone along the same lines of this thread.

What is the difference (or is there one?) in playing the lottery and playing in a raffle?

I suppose it depends on who you ask and when. Some people think the lottery is wrong because they have been told it's wrong, then turn around and play a raffle from the school, scouts, CHURCH, etc....

Hyde · Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it wrong...

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

and what if you took 1 million of the 20 million to keep for yourself and sent the rest to st. jude's children hospital. that doesnt seem very selfish to me.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Hyde wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

and what if you took 1 million of the 20 million to keep for yourself and sent the rest to st. jude's children hospital. that doesnt seem very selfish to me.

But let's not think that by winning any amount of money automatically means some of it has to be given to charity or anyone else for that matter. That is totally dependent on the person. I would most certainly give money to specific causes, family and friends.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5268 Location: Boston, MA

toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

and what if you took 1 million of the 20 million to keep for yourself and sent the rest to st. jude's children hospital. that doesnt seem very selfish to me.

But let's not think that by winning any amount of money automatically means some of it has to be given to charity or anyone else for that matter. That is totally dependent on the person. I would most certainly give money to specific causes, family and friends.

The giving of any amount of money is NOT charity in and of itself. Charity may be the most misunderstood virtue in the modern meaning. Charity today means basically to give to those less fortunate. Chritian Charity however is actually based upon the will of the individual to act towards others as he would toward himself. Charity is in fact the necessary action taken out of Christian love.

A person who gives money may or may not be acting out of charity OR selfishness, the money is irrelevant the persons motivation is the key and only the person and God can truly know his motivation or will.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Gilbert1908 wrote:

A person who gives money may or may not be acting out of charity OR selfishness, the money is irrelevant the persons motivation is the key and only the person and God can truly know his motivation or will.

Well said - I agree

Hyde · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Why is it wrong...

toddytodd wrote: Hyde wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

and what if you took 1 million of the 20 million to keep for yourself and sent the rest to st. jude's children hospital. that doesnt seem very selfish to me.

But let's not think that by winning any amount of money automatically means some of it has to be given to charity or anyone else for that matter. That is totally dependent on the person. I would most certainly give money to specific causes, family and friends.

no, i'm not saying that. i'm just saying that that is something i would do and does that still make it bad if i am using the money for a good cause.