Political Crossfire Forums

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5268 Location: Boston, MA

toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Why is it wrong...

toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

It reduces a diety to little more than a good luck trinket.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5268 Location: Boston, MA

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

My response assumed that since you were in the Christianity thread you were asking for the Christian perspective.

Your personal opinions are of course your own, but selfishness and pride are universally accepted by Christians not only as sinful but nearly the very origin of sin itself. Not because they hurt others but because they HURT THE SINNER himself.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

My response assumed that since you were in the Christianity thread you were asking for the Christian perspective.

Your personal opinions are of course your own, but selfishness and pride are universally accepted by Christians not only as sinful but nearly the very origin of sin itself. Not because they hurt others but because they HURT THE SINNER himself.

You are correct in thinking I wanted a Christian response and I do appreciate your response in that regard. While I can agree that, in being selfish, one hurts them self and/or others, than it is wrong (sinful if you like). However, I do not agree with the christian belief (assuming it is a christian belief) that wanting to win much money to do things for yourself and others that you aren't currently capable of doing is selfish which is sin full.
Also, I don't understand how having pride in yourself is sinful. If you are proud for the work you do, why is that bad? As long as you (again, assuming a Christian mind set here) acknowledge that God is the reason why you are good at your job, accomplished your goal, etc, then why is it wrong to be proud of yourself? Or your children? Or your home?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5268 Location: Boston, MA

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

My response assumed that since you were in the Christianity thread you were asking for the Christian perspective.

Your personal opinions are of course your own, but selfishness and pride are universally accepted by Christians not only as sinful but nearly the very origin of sin itself. Not because they hurt others but because they HURT THE SINNER himself.

You are correct in thinking I wanted a Christian response and I do appreciate your response in that regard. While I can agree that, in being selfish, one hurts them self and/or others, than it is wrong (sinful if you like). However, I do not agree with the christian belief (assuming it is a christian belief) that wanting to win much money to do things for yourself and others that you aren't currently capable of doing is selfish which is sin full.
Also, I don't understand how having pride in yourself is sinful. If you are proud for the work you do, why is that bad? As long as you (again, assuming a Christian mind set here) acknowledge that God is the reason why you are good at your job, accomplished your goal, etc, then why is it wrong to be proud of yourself? Or your children? Or your home?

First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know. But generally speaking superfical prayer for non spiritual results are considered selfish acts as best we can determine such things.

I think C.S. Lewis deals with pride in the most simple and direct way. The kind of pride you are describing is NOT the pride I am suggesting is the very central aspect of sin. But notice EXACTLY what you wrote because it is a critical distinction, "proud of your work" is not the pride I am worried about.

Here is how Lewis puts it in Mere Christianity;

"Pleasure in being praised in not pride. The child who is patted on th back for doing a lesson well, the woman whose bearuty is praised by her lover, the saved soul th whom Christ says "Well done" are pleased and ought to be. For here the pleasure lies not in what you have pleased someone you wanted (and rightly wanted) to please. The trouble begins when you pass from thinking, 'I have pleased him; all is well,' to thinking, 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' The more you delight in yourself and the less you delight in the praise, the worse you are becoming. When you delight wholly in yourself and do not care about the praise at all, you have reached the bottom."

Chesterton in Heretics, as usual takes one sentence to sum it all up

"Vanity is active;it desires the applause of infinite multitudes; pride is passive, desiring only the applause of one person, which it already has."

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

My response assumed that since you were in the Christianity thread you were asking for the Christian perspective.

Your personal opinions are of course your own, but selfishness and pride are universally accepted by Christians not only as sinful but nearly the very origin of sin itself. Not because they hurt others but because they HURT THE SINNER himself.

You are correct in thinking I wanted a Christian response and I do appreciate your response in that regard. While I can agree that, in being selfish, one hurts them self and/or others, than it is wrong (sinful if you like). However, I do not agree with the christian belief (assuming it is a christian belief) that wanting to win much money to do things for yourself and others that you aren't currently capable of doing is selfish which is sin full.
Also, I don't understand how having pride in yourself is sinful. If you are proud for the work you do, why is that bad? As long as you (again, assuming a Christian mind set here) acknowledge that God is the reason why you are good at your job, accomplished your goal, etc, then why is it wrong to be proud of yourself? Or your children? Or your home?

First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know. But generally speaking superfical prayer for non spiritual results are considered selfish acts as best we can determine such things.

I think C.S. Lewis deals with pride in the most simple and direct way. The kind of pride you are describing is NOT the pride I am suggesting is the very central aspect of sin. But notice EXACTLY what you wrote because it is a critical distinction, "proud of your work" is not the pride I am worried about.

Here is how Lewis puts it in Mere Christianity;

"Pleasure in being praised in not pride. The child who is patted on th back for doing a lesson well, the woman whose bearuty is praised by her lover, the saved soul th whom Christ says "Well done" are pleased and ought to be. For here the pleasure lies not in what you have pleased someone you wanted (and rightly wanted) to please. The trouble begins when you pass from thinking, 'I have pleased him; all is well,' to thinking, 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' The more you delight in yourself and the less you delight in the praise, the worse you are becoming. When you delight wholly in yourself and do not care about the praise at all, you have reached the bottom."

Chesterton in Heretics, as usual takes one sentence to sum it all up

"Vanity is active;it desires the applause of infinite multitudes; pride is passive, desiring only the applause of one person, which it already has."

This makes more sense - thank you for supply this. I have never said 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' !! Quite the opposite actually. I usually give more credit to others when I work on a team (sometimes even more than the others probably should get) and I don't usually accept Thank You's very well either.

I also appreciate this: "First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know.". I would like to see more people adopt this type of attitude in the world.
Again, I appreciate your responses!

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5268 Location: Boston, MA

toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

My response assumed that since you were in the Christianity thread you were asking for the Christian perspective.

Your personal opinions are of course your own, but selfishness and pride are universally accepted by Christians not only as sinful but nearly the very origin of sin itself. Not because they hurt others but because they HURT THE SINNER himself.

You are correct in thinking I wanted a Christian response and I do appreciate your response in that regard. While I can agree that, in being selfish, one hurts them self and/or others, than it is wrong (sinful if you like). However, I do not agree with the christian belief (assuming it is a christian belief) that wanting to win much money to do things for yourself and others that you aren't currently capable of doing is selfish which is sin full.
Also, I don't understand how having pride in yourself is sinful. If you are proud for the work you do, why is that bad? As long as you (again, assuming a Christian mind set here) acknowledge that God is the reason why you are good at your job, accomplished your goal, etc, then why is it wrong to be proud of yourself? Or your children? Or your home?

First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know. But generally speaking superfical prayer for non spiritual results are considered selfish acts as best we can determine such things.

I think C.S. Lewis deals with pride in the most simple and direct way. The kind of pride you are describing is NOT the pride I am suggesting is the very central aspect of sin. But notice EXACTLY what you wrote because it is a critical distinction, "proud of your work" is not the pride I am worried about.

Here is how Lewis puts it in Mere Christianity;

"Pleasure in being praised in not pride. The child who is patted on th back for doing a lesson well, the woman whose bearuty is praised by her lover, the saved soul th whom Christ says "Well done" are pleased and ought to be. For here the pleasure lies not in what you have pleased someone you wanted (and rightly wanted) to please. The trouble begins when you pass from thinking, 'I have pleased him; all is well,' to thinking, 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' The more you delight in yourself and the less you delight in the praise, the worse you are becoming. When you delight wholly in yourself and do not care about the praise at all, you have reached the bottom."

Chesterton in Heretics, as usual takes one sentence to sum it all up

"Vanity is active;it desires the applause of infinite multitudes; pride is passive, desiring only the applause of one person, which it already has."

This makes more sense - thank you for supply this. I have never said 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' !! Quite the opposite actually. I usually give more credit to others when I work on a team (sometimes even more than the others probably should get) and I don't usually accept Thank You's very well either.

I also appreciate this: "First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know.". I would like to see more people adopt this type of attitude in the world.
Again, I appreciate your responses!

Be careful don't want to be to PROUD of your humility!!!! LOL

LetsGetReal · Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 5791 Location: Peoria, AZ

A good majority of christians have that same belief, its when people try to change our view points to unbiblical ones is when the arguments are brought into the picture. What we talk about here could be right or wrong, we don't know for sure, but were telling you the best answers we have, with what we have. In the end it's all up to God...

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Greed

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Any form of selfishness is sinful.

In fact if you analyse sin it is nearly almost defined by our enduring selfishness and pride.

While I do appreciate the response to my question, I totally disagree in selfishness being sinful. I see no proof of that whatsoever. While being selfless is commendable for sure, I also don't buy into the idea that selfishness, as long as it doesn't harm others, is sin. If I want to have a bigger, nicer house, more and faster cars, the ability to vacation anywhere in the world, etc, that is not selfish.
I also don't agree with, nor see, how winning the lottery selfish. I would like more money to buy things for myself, as well as my family and my friends, donate to causes that are close to my heart, invest for my children's future, etc. I don't see that as selfish at all.
Granted all these things can be done with the money I currently have, (and I am grateful for what I currently have), but these things can not be done to the extent possible by winning $20 million.

My response assumed that since you were in the Christianity thread you were asking for the Christian perspective.

Your personal opinions are of course your own, but selfishness and pride are universally accepted by Christians not only as sinful but nearly the very origin of sin itself. Not because they hurt others but because they HURT THE SINNER himself.

You are correct in thinking I wanted a Christian response and I do appreciate your response in that regard. While I can agree that, in being selfish, one hurts them self and/or others, than it is wrong (sinful if you like). However, I do not agree with the christian belief (assuming it is a christian belief) that wanting to win much money to do things for yourself and others that you aren't currently capable of doing is selfish which is sin full.
Also, I don't understand how having pride in yourself is sinful. If you are proud for the work you do, why is that bad? As long as you (again, assuming a Christian mind set here) acknowledge that God is the reason why you are good at your job, accomplished your goal, etc, then why is it wrong to be proud of yourself? Or your children? Or your home?

First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know. But generally speaking superfical prayer for non spiritual results are considered selfish acts as best we can determine such things.

I think C.S. Lewis deals with pride in the most simple and direct way. The kind of pride you are describing is NOT the pride I am suggesting is the very central aspect of sin. But notice EXACTLY what you wrote because it is a critical distinction, "proud of your work" is not the pride I am worried about.

Here is how Lewis puts it in Mere Christianity;

"Pleasure in being praised in not pride. The child who is patted on th back for doing a lesson well, the woman whose bearuty is praised by her lover, the saved soul th whom Christ says "Well done" are pleased and ought to be. For here the pleasure lies not in what you have pleased someone you wanted (and rightly wanted) to please. The trouble begins when you pass from thinking, 'I have pleased him; all is well,' to thinking, 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' The more you delight in yourself and the less you delight in the praise, the worse you are becoming. When you delight wholly in yourself and do not care about the praise at all, you have reached the bottom."

Chesterton in Heretics, as usual takes one sentence to sum it all up

"Vanity is active;it desires the applause of infinite multitudes; pride is passive, desiring only the applause of one person, which it already has."

This makes more sense - thank you for supply this. I have never said 'What a fine person I must be to have done it.' !! Quite the opposite actually. I usually give more credit to others when I work on a team (sometimes even more than the others probably should get) and I don't usually accept Thank You's very well either.

I also appreciate this: "First of all if someone were to pray to God for money I have no idea what is in the person's heart so I don't know if he has sinned or not, nor can anyone but God truly know.". I would like to see more people adopt this type of attitude in the world.
Again, I appreciate your responses!

Be careful don't want to be to PROUD of your humility!!!! LOL

:lol:
I can't win!

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Greed
For me, greed is when I want too much & take away from others. Meaning, I am so greedy at diner, I eat all the food & leave none for others. I don't want all the money, just a lot of it
:tu:

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24253

I think God would rather you to pray to win the lottery....than not at all.

Just don't expect God to answer that prayer.....but then again...He might. :-D

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

John wrote: I think God would rather you to pray to win the lottery....than not at all.

Just don't expect God to answer that prayer.....but then again...He might. :-D

I agree (about the praying issue). And I would like for God to agree to let me win the lottery, but I won't hold my breath. Still.....

sparsely · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2296 Location: Passamaquoddy

This is not a Christian POV as such, but my feeling is that one should not pray for something they can provide for themselves.
If you want to increase your chances of winning, buy two tickets. ;)
It is possible that simply the repetition and articulation of one's desires is what molds circumstance to outcome.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Greed
For me, greed is when I want too much & take away from others. Meaning, I am so greedy at diner, I eat all the food & leave none for others. I don't want all the money, just a lot of it
:tu:

Well, that is why someobody would say why it was wrong. I don't have a problem with someone praying for something like that, however, it is a childish version of prayer, and someone who prays for it should expect to be disapointed.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject:

John wrote: I think God would rather you to pray to win the lottery....than not at all.

Just don't expect God to answer that prayer.....but then again...He might. :-D

I some how doubt a god, would dig being treated as a good luck charm.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: perdidochas wrote: toddytodd wrote: ...to pray to win the lottery?
I have heard people say that and have never really heard a logical reason as to why it is wrong.
Any ideas?

Greed
For me, greed is when I want too much & take away from others. Meaning, I am so greedy at diner, I eat all the food & leave none for others. I don't want all the money, just a lot of it
:tu:

Well, that is why someobody would say why it was wrong. I don't have a problem with someone praying for something like that, however, it is a childish version of prayer, and someone who prays for it should expect to be disapointed.

Some people pray for it and it happens, so not everyone who prays for it (or things deemed 'worldly' as money is) gets disappointed. There have even minister's wives who have won lottery winnings. I would bet she prayed for it :)

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24253

thefranzkafkafront wrote: John wrote: I think God would rather you to pray to win the lottery....than not at all.

Just don't expect God to answer that prayer.....but then again...He might. :-D

I some how doubt a god, would dig being treated as a good luck charm.

Don't be so sure. I don't believe that treating God like a gene who grants wishes is wise....but to depend on God for your needs (like one would foolishly do with a good luck charm instead of God) is exactly what we should do.

Granted, God isn't going to answer your desire if it isn't in your best interest (and winning the lottery rarely is).

The main issue in this life and answered prayer is growing closer to God. If what you’re asking for in the prayer will bring you into a closer relationship with God then it will prolly be answered, if it won’t then it will not. At least that the way I see it.

My main point isn't to pray to win the lottery. My point is to PRAY, period. Pray about everything.