Political Crossfire Forums

[Mailech]

What is this all about?
If Jesus really is G-d, could Satan really tempt the perfect being into rebeling against Himself.
If Satan really could have tempted Jesus, then how could he be a G-d. One does not have a hope of successfully tempting G-d.

If therefore Jesus had no way that he would be tempted by Satan, what would be the point of the story.

Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

[perdidochas]

Mailech wrote: What is this all about?
If Jesus really is G-d, could Satan really tempt the perfect being into rebeling against Himself.
If Satan really could have tempted Jesus, then how could he be a G-d. One does not have a hope of successfully tempting G-d.

If therefore Jesus had no way that he would be tempted by Satan, what would be the point of the story.

Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

Of course Jesus was tempted. Jesus has the ability to sin. He chose not to. If Jesus wasn't tempted, then the whole story is absurd.

[SiriusBlack]

God came in the form of man, with every capability of sinning. In John 1:14, the bible talks about the word becoming flesh. The word they are referring to is Jesus, if u skip back up to the top of John and all through John 1:1-18, it gives truth to Jesus being the Word. God spoke through him what he wanted the people of Israel and the world to hear. Since Jesus came in the flesh he was therefore capable of sinning, just like any human today.

[Vexillum]

Mailech wrote: If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

Jesus, by the flesh, still suffered when he was tested. Jesus was hungry when he was challenged to turn rocks into bread. There's no need for there to be a chance that Jesus would actually consider making bread.

[Mailech]

perdidochas wrote: Of course Jesus was tempted. Jesus has the ability to sin. He chose not to. If Jesus wasn't tempted, then the whole story is absurd.

Well can G-d sin? Does G-d have an evil inclination?

[Mailech]

SiriusBlack wrote: God came in the form of man, with every capability of sinning. In John 1:14, the bible talks about the word becoming flesh. The word they are referring to is Jesus, if u skip back up to the top of John and all through John 1:1-18, it gives truth to Jesus being the Word. God spoke through him what he wanted the people of Israel and the world to hear. Since Jesus came in the flesh he was therefore capable of sinning, just like any human today.

If he was a man then by definition he was not a god. Then you are saying that Jesus was not G-d.

[mODULAR mAN]

perdidochas wrote: Mailech wrote: What is this all about?
If Jesus really is G-d, could Satan really tempt the perfect being into rebeling against Himself.
If Satan really could have tempted Jesus, then how could he be a G-d. One does not have a hope of successfully tempting G-d.

If therefore Jesus had no way that he would be tempted by Satan, what would be the point of the story.

Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

Of course Jesus was tempted. Jesus has the ability to sin. He chose not to. If Jesus wasn't tempted, then the whole story is absurd.

Absurd, yes.

[mODULAR mAN]

Vexillum wrote: Mailech wrote: If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

Jesus, by the flesh, still suffered when he was tested. Jesus was hungry when he was challenged to turn rocks into bread. There's no need for there to be a chance that Jesus would actually consider making bread.

Yes, Jesus was a demi-god. Like Hercules.

[Mailech]

mODULAR mAN wrote: Yes, Jesus was a demi-god. Like Hercules.
Yes well unfortumately in the monotheistic view of G-d, a demi-god is not a possibility

And btw, the manner that you chose to capitalize your name really pisses me off.

[Saracen]

Mailech wrote: What is this all about?
If Jesus really is G-d, could Satan really tempt the perfect being into rebeling against Himself.
If Satan really could have tempted Jesus, then how could he be a G-d. One does not have a hope of successfully tempting G-d.

If therefore Jesus had no way that he would be tempted by Satan, what would be the point of the story.

Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

This is why I don't believe that Jesus is/was God, but a Prophet and Messenger to Mankind. He may have been "the Messiah", but the way we view the Messiah is different than how Christians view it. In fact, the only reason we believe in him as a Messiah is in the way that he will come and save the world from total destruction near the End of Times.

Granted, I know you don't believe that Jesus is or will be the Messiah and that you are not preoccupied with the identity of the Messiah, and I applaud you for worrying more about doing what's right in this world rather than think about the Afterlife. I tend to view it almost the same way in that I don't really care at the moment about the Messiah's Advent, and would rather stick to worshipping God and following His Commandments.

[John]

Mailech wrote: What is this all about?
If Jesus really is G-d, could Satan really tempt the perfect being into rebeling against Himself.
If Satan really could have tempted Jesus, then how could he be a G-d. One does not have a hope of successfully tempting G-d.

If therefore Jesus had no way that he would be tempted by Satan, what would be the point of the story.

Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

Think of it this way...when God incarnated Himself as a man...He took on the "desires" that is inherent in having flesh...the "animal instincts" some would say. The flesh doesn’t want to die…it will fight and do things that your intellect would find repulsive. For example, it’s the animal instinct that kicks in that cause a starving mother to eat her dead child.

Now if you look at the ways that Satan tempted Jesus, they were in ways that would have provided comfort for fleshy instincts…like saving His life and not suffering death.

The real point would be that there wouldn’t be any point in God incarnating Himself as a man and truly giving the perfect sacrifice to redeem mankind…IF He didn’t experience the temptation to save His own skin…we all have this feeling of needing to stay alive at all costs….it’s in our nature as mortal men. God became a mortal man, died, and then rose again as the first fruit to all that accept His sacrifice. Because God rose from the dead…is why His children are able to follow in suit. It was a true sacrifice...because God Almighty rose from the dead in an Immortal changed spiritual body that is forever part of who He is....He will forever be the risen lamb that was slain for His children. He will forever be and has forever been that because of what He did (brain bleeding yet?) He did this as an act of eternal Love....truly minding blowing if you think about it. It's beyond comprehension really....then again, how could it not be when the subject is the very nature of God?

If you can see past the whole notion of this being a form of idolatry (because it isn’t if it really is God we’re talking about here), then you would possibly see that God did what He did, so that we would see that it’s ALL about Him (not out of commandment, but out of Truth)…we worship Him not only because He is God…but because He is the purpose of our Salvation in every way…even on the physical level of actually becoming a man Himself and doing the completed work. For this reason there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised!

[Nathyn]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: What is this all about?
If Jesus really is G-d, could Satan really tempt the perfect being into rebeling against Himself.
If Satan really could have tempted Jesus, then how could he be a G-d. One does not have a hope of successfully tempting G-d.

If therefore Jesus had no way that he would be tempted by Satan, what would be the point of the story.

Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!

Think of it this way...when God incarnated Himself as a man...He took on the "desires" that is inherent in having flesh...the "animal instincts" some would say. The flesh doesn’t want to die…it will fight and do things that your intellect would find repulsive. For example, it’s the animal instinct that kicks in that cause a starving mother to eat her dead child.
If God is all-powerful, why would he need to incarnate as a mortal man, with a tendency towards sin?

He could be sinless and superhuman. Easily. With a snap of his fingers, bam, fly around like Neo from the Matrix.

But the majority of his actions were so mundane. How was anybody supposed to expect that he really was God, even if he was?

Is God really so fickle that he would pretend to be mortal?

On the cross, Jesus' disciples gave him water and after he died, they didn't think he was coming back, again suggesting that he was totally mortal.

But how could God truly be "mortal"? How could God truly limit his own power?

Even if he chose to temporarily give up his power, his omniscience would ensure that he'd already know exactly what would happen during the time of his powerlessness.

Just admit it: The trinity is a pagan idea.

And there's plenty of scriptural evidence to support unitarianism.

There certainly isn't any evidence in the Old Testament of a Trinity. From what I understand, what Christians call the "holy spirit," is what Jews call "the presence of God" (shechinah), but shechinah is simply the presence of God, not a God in and of itself. It's frankly bizarre to think that God, all of a sudden one day decided to split into three parts.

How is eternity even divisible?

It also just doesn't hold in line with history. When God wanted to send a message to humanity in the past, he'd either come down himself, send angels, or send fire and brimstone. What a fantastic coincidence that God's messenger this time was an obscure Rabbi, whose existence can't be verified and whose life wasn't chronicled, except for nearly a century after his death by followers who clearly had the goal of spreading Christianity in mind.

[John]

Quote: If God is all-powerful, why would he need to incarnate as a mortal man, with a tendency towards sin?

He could be sinless and superhuman. Easily. With a snap of his fingers, bam, fly around like Neo from the Matrix.

But the majority of his actions were so mundane. How was anybody supposed to expect that he really was God, even if he was?

Is God really so fickle that he would pretend to be mortal?

That's where I think you have missed the point. He wasn't pretending. Yes! God can do anything...and in order to prove to us and the angels that His word really is Truth...not just because He says so...but because it really is and He really IS Love. He did what He did....and REALLY became a mortal man and died for ALL the sins of the world. If that doesn't prove that God can do anything...nothing could ever convince you to trust Him. What He did was SO much more powerful than snapping His fingers and flying around like Neo from the Matrix.

[John]

Quote: There certainly isn't any evidence in the Old Testament of a Trinity. From what I understand, what Christians call the "holy spirit," is what Jews call "the presence of God" (shechinah), but shechinah is simply the presence of God, not a God in and of itself. It's frankly bizarre to think that God, all of a sudden one day decided to split into three parts.

How is eternity even divisible?

Who ever said eternity was divisible or that the Holy Spirit is a God in and of Himself?

The Trinity is more of an understanding that God exists in dimensions higher that the one we live in.

We’re like a square that lives in a 2D dimension trying to understand a cube in a 3D one. One square would say to the other..”the cube is 6 squares yet is one”..and the other would say, “That’s impossible” well, yes if you limit the understanding to a 2D reality.

[Saracen]

John wrote: That's where I think you have missed the point. He wasn't pretending. Yes! God can do anything...and in order to prove to us and the angels that His word really is Truth...not just because He says so...but because it really is and He really IS Love. He did what He did....and REALLY became a mortal man and died for ALL the sins of the world. If that doesn't prove that God can do anything...nothing could ever convince you to trust Him. What He did was SO much more powerful than snapping His fingers and flying around like Neo from the Matrix.

There's only one thing God can NOT do: be tempted by flesh or by sin. Sin doesn't touch or desecrate His Holiness and Majesty. No, sir, it does not.

[John]

Saracen wrote: John wrote: That's where I think you have missed the point. He wasn't pretending. Yes! God can do anything...and in order to prove to us and the angels that His word really is Truth...not just because He says so...but because it really is and He really IS Love. He did what He did....and REALLY became a mortal man and died for ALL the sins of the world. If that doesn't prove that God can do anything...nothing could ever convince you to trust Him. What He did was SO much more powerful than snapping His fingers and flying around like Neo from the Matrix.

There's only one thing God can NOT do: be tempted by flesh or by sin. Sin doesn't touch or desecrate His Holiness and Majesty. No, sir, it does not.

Then what hope do you have?

[John]

2 Corinthians 5

16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[John]

John wrote: Saracen wrote: John wrote: That's where I think you have missed the point. He wasn't pretending. Yes! God can do anything...and in order to prove to us and the angels that His word really is Truth...not just because He says so...but because it really is and He really IS Love. He did what He did....and REALLY became a mortal man and died for ALL the sins of the world. If that doesn't prove that God can do anything...nothing could ever convince you to trust Him. What He did was SO much more powerful than snapping His fingers and flying around like Neo from the Matrix.

There's only one thing God can NOT do: be tempted by flesh or by sin. Sin doesn't touch or desecrate His Holiness and Majesty. No, sir, it does not.

Then what hope do you have?

I think you have missed the message. The Flesh that clothed God was temped...but because He was God...He was able to resist the temptation and be without sin. Yet "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

[Saracen]

John wrote: I think you have missed the message. The Flesh that clothed God was temped...but because He was God...He was able to resist the temptation and be without sin. Yet "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Sorry... had a dinner break... plus, I'm studying.

Regarding your post, it has a lot to do with the topic of Original Sin, which we respectfully agreed to disagree over last time.

Quote: Then what hope do you have?

Hope comes from faith in God and God alone.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: it has a lot to do with the topic of Original Sin

How so?

It looks to me that it has only to do with sin in general, and it is pretty hard to deny that that exists.

Which is what your argument is.