Political Crossfire Forums

[Fido]

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?

Sadly enough, take a look back at what happened here in the U.S. after Hurricane Katrina. That answer your question?

I think it is a mistake to expect people who have been uprooted by a tremendous storm, and abandoned by their government after losing all their property, jobs, and whatever dignity was theirs the day before to be constrained by any restriction let alone law. Freedom cannot be done without, but there are many examples in that category, not the least of which is food and water. And people have a right and an expectation that the government, which limits us all, even those who do not make enough to pay taxes, should be there with ability and resources when disasters strike. Since government has mismanaged resources and given all wealth to the wealthy, the people are right to settle thing for themselves, and take what they want or need.

[greeneye]

Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

If man is willing to pay the price for freedom, I think he can handle true freedom.

Freedom isn't free.

What's the price? Responsibility, personal accountability for ones actions, the rule of law in a society where human conditions abound...

We can play the blame game all we want and point the finger at government, policies, etc. etc... if we think we are loosing freedoms ... but those aren't necessarily the problem.

Man has choices. And in our society ignorance, for some, has become easier than knowledge and understanding.

Ignorance impedes freedom. However, ignorance is a choice. In today's fast-pace world of surviving, choosing ignorance is easier, cheaper and more expedient for many.

The consequences....? Loss of "true" freedom.

The solution: Personal accountability and responsibility for one's actions and one's life.

[Fido]

greeneye wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

If man is willing to pay the price for freedom, I think he can handle true freedom.

Freedom isn't free.

What's the price? Responsibility, personal accountability for ones actions, the rule of law in a society where human conditions abound...

We can play the blame game all we want and point the finger at government, policies, etc. etc... if we think we are loosing freedoms ... but those aren't necessarily the problem.

Man has choices. And in our society ignorance, for some, has become easier than knowledge and understanding.

Ignorance impedes freedom. However, ignorance is a choice. In today's fast-pace world of surviving, choosing ignorance is easier, cheaper and more expedient for many.

The consequences....? Loss of "true" freedom.

The solution: Personal accountability and responsibility for one's actions and one's life.

How do you call ignorance a choice when education is so expensive, when the true believers have control of the text books and curriculum, and when the government has first claim on all scientific knowledge, and controls even the most dated intelligence. Learning what is going on in the limited fashion this world allows is a difficult process of concentrated research and following insights. How much better can it be when the dogmatists have control, or propagandists, or ideologues? To reach an oasis of knowledge requires a long march through the loose sand of opinion and conjecture. Many people are never in a position to make that choice.
Slavery is easier than freedom, but to say that is not to imply it is a real choice. Rather, we are social and if all our family and friends are slaves we will seldom bid them good bye for a freedom that is entirely more dangerous and demanding. Rather, each takes as much of slavery and injustice as they can bear, and when all have had enough then they take matters into their own hands and choose freedom for awhile. Yet to think freedom is not a grinding labor demanding constant vigilance portrays it unfairly. Freedom is not easy, but it is required for each person to know their potential, and to reach their potential. If we find we are bold and brave enough to never sleep without a weapon under our pillow, and generous enough to allow freedom to others, and wise enough to bear any burden to spare our children the fetters of slavery then we will deserve our place on this earth, and in the memories of our kind.

[greeneye]

Fido wrote: greeneye wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

If man is willing to pay the price for freedom, I think he can handle true freedom.

Freedom isn't free.

What's the price? Responsibility, personal accountability for ones actions, the rule of law in a society where human conditions abound...

We can play the blame game all we want and point the finger at government, policies, etc. etc... if we think we are loosing freedoms ... but those aren't necessarily the problem.

Man has choices. And in our society ignorance, for some, has become easier than knowledge and understanding.

Ignorance impedes freedom. However, ignorance is a choice. In today's fast-pace world of surviving, choosing ignorance is easier, cheaper and more expedient for many.

The consequences....? Loss of "true" freedom.

The solution: Personal accountability and responsibility for one's actions and one's life.

How do you call ignorance a choice when education is so expensive, when the true believers have control of the text books and curriculum, and when the government has first claim on all scientific knowledge, and controls even the most dated intelligence. Learning what is going on in the limited fashion this world allows is a difficult process of concentrated research and following insights. How much better can it be when the dogmatists have control, or propagandists, or ideologues? To reach an oasis of knowledge requires a long march through the loose sand of opinion and conjecture. Many people are never in a position to make that choice.
Slavery is easier than freedom, but to say that is not to imply it is a real choice. Rather, we are social and if all our family and friends are slaves we will seldom bid them good bye for a freedom that is entirely more dangerous and demanding. Rather, each takes as much of slavery and injustice as they can bear, and when all have had enough then they take matters into their own hands and choose freedom for awhile. Yet to think freedom is not a grinding labor demanding constant vigilance portrays it unfairly. Freedom is not easy,

Of course Freedom is difficult. Of course, Freedom it is not easy. One has only to look at the price that has been paid for us to be here today. Freedom has always had a price. But the U.S. military are not the only ones in our society who are designated to protect freedom and the rule of law in this country. So is the single individual person (citizen). And we do that by taking responsibility for freedom and the Rule of Law and for our lives. We do that by ceasing to lay blame on everything and anything that we think is jeopardizing our freedom. It's not about creating new rights in the Constitution; it's not about the 'injustice' (though there seems to be much of this); it's not about what the government did or didn't do, it's not about how the poor get poorer and the rich get richer; it's not about how the welfare system in America has made millions of people dependent upon a system that is dysfunctional...It's really about the 'individual person." What is the individual person going to do?'

Fido wrote: but it is required for each person to know their potential, and to reach their potential.

Yes, indeed. and this is where it all begins. Each person does have unlimited potential. And, of course, it's difficult to rise above the mire and mock of the seemingly insurmountable challenges that a person may have before them. But there have been many who have been down trodden with absolutely nothing, who have despite all the odds, rejected ignorance for a greater freedom. It is doable. It is a choice. And yes, we must be bold and brave enough. But that is a choice also.

There is always a choice. There's a high road and there's a low road. Blame and human justification for ignorance is a choice. The low road is generally easy, comfortable (often not very fulfilling) and sometimes it is even paved for us. One may often feel they are "entitled" to everything when this road gets tough. The high road is often fraught with many unknowns and sometimes has to be paved as we go. Blame is not an option on this road. Action and experience makes the journey smoother. This road is less traveled. Is individual and personal freedom worth it? Personally, I would say YES!

Opportunity still survives in America. The Rule of Law governs that opportunity. Opportunity simply waits for each person to seize it and within the Rule of Law and the values and morals that this country was founded upon, carve their own unique destiny.

[Fido]

greeneye wrote: Fido wrote: greeneye wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

If man is willing to pay the price for freedom, I think he can handle true freedom.

Freedom isn't free.

What's the price? Responsibility, personal accountability for ones actions, the rule of law in a society where human conditions abound...

We can play the blame game all we want and point the finger at government, policies, etc. etc... if we think we are loosing freedoms ... but those aren't necessarily the problem.

Man has choices. And in our society ignorance, for some, has become easier than knowledge and understanding.

Ignorance impedes freedom. However, ignorance is a choice. In today's fast-pace world of surviving, choosing ignorance is easier, cheaper and more expedient for many.

The consequences....? Loss of "true" freedom.

The solution: Personal accountability and responsibility for one's actions and one's life.

How do you call ignorance a choice when education is so expensive, when the true believers have control of the text books and curriculum, and when the government has first claim on all scientific knowledge, and controls even the most dated intelligence. Learning what is going on in the limited fashion this world allows is a difficult process of concentrated research and following insights. How much better can it be when the dogmatists have control, or propagandists, or ideologues? To reach an oasis of knowledge requires a long march through the loose sand of opinion and conjecture. Many people are never in a position to make that choice.
Slavery is easier than freedom, but to say that is not to imply it is a real choice. Rather, we are social and if all our family and friends are slaves we will seldom bid them good bye for a freedom that is entirely more dangerous and demanding. Rather, each takes as much of slavery and injustice as they can bear, and when all have had enough then they take matters into their own hands and choose freedom for awhile. Yet to think freedom is not a grinding labor demanding constant vigilance portrays it unfairly. Freedom is not easy,

Of course Freedom is difficult. Of course, Freedom it is not easy. One has only to look at the price that has been paid for us to be here today. Freedom has always had a price. But the U.S. military are not the only ones in our society who are designated to protect freedom and the rule of law in this country. So is the single individual person (citizen). And we do that by taking responsibility for freedom and the Rule of Law and for our lives. We do that by ceasing to lay blame on everything and anything that we think is jeopardizing our freedom. It's not about creating new rights in the Constitution; it's not about the 'injustice' (though there seems to be much of this); it's not about what the government did or didn't do, it's not about how the poor get poorer and the rich get richer; it's not about how the welfare system in America has made millions of people dependent upon a system that is dysfunctional...It's really about the 'individual person." What is the individual person going to do?'

Fido wrote: but it is required for each person to know their potential, and to reach their potential.

Yes, indeed. and this is where it all begins. Each person does have unlimited potential. And, of course, it's difficult to rise above the mire and mock of the seemingly insurmountable challenges that a person may have before them. But there have been many who have been down trodden with absolutely nothing, who have despite all the odds, rejected ignorance for a greater freedom. It is doable. It is a choice. And yes, we must be bold and brave enough. But that is a choice also.

There is always a choice. There's a high road and there's a low road. Blame and human justification for ignorance is a choice. The low road is generally easy, comfortable (often not very fulfilling) and sometimes it is even paved for us. One may often feel they are "entitled" to everything when this road gets tough. The high road is often fraught with many unknowns and sometimes has to be paved as we go. Blame is not an option on this road. Action and experience makes the journey smoother. This road is less traveled. Is individual and personal freedom worth it? Personally, I would say YES!

Opportunity still survives in America. The Rule of Law governs that opportunity. Opportunity simply waits for each person to seize it and within the Rule of Law and the values and morals that this country was founded upon, carve their own unique destiny.

Freedom and slavery each come at a cost. The only difference is that the caprices of slavery show no promise of a continued existence as those of freedom do. There was once an experiment done by well meaning scientists who put two monkeys in cages identical in every respect save for an electric grid on the floor of one cage that one monkey had to cross each time he wanted food. Every time the food seeking monkey was shocked the second monkey also was shocked, and when the first shocked monkey was fed, so was the second. The first Monkey, who had to choose to endure pain to have a meal developed an ulcer while the second did not. This would suggest that choice causes stress. And, no doubt that is true if, as it is for many, there really is no good choice. But what about in the real world?
There was a study that found people in management positions actually suffered much less stress than the grunts they managed. Now, if the monkey model holds true you would think that choice would result in anxiety, and since management people have bosses as well they must endure some stress. People in complex economic relationships without any good alternative suffer. People without political options, or legal options, or social options suffer; but what is the alternative? What they suffer is the hopelessness of slaves.
To suggest that the rule of law governs opportunity is wrong. Law as I define it is a formulation of behavior, and this is true for physical laws as well as social laws. It is the notion in regard to human behavior that if we behave in a certain prescribed manor that all number of good things will happen for us, and if we do not, then the opposite is true, and all manor of undesirable happenings will occur. It is a common fact that rich people evade the law and poor people evade the police. Law protects property primarily, and property pays much to protect itself. In this country of many police there are more private police than public police. Wealth and property are protected and crimes against property account for the greatest numbers of people in penitentiary. The rule of law is just a source and fortress of power. No liberty, and no revolution with a goal of liberty is possible without a suspension of law and order.