Political Crossfire Forums

[Ellron]

Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?

[sparsely]

Yes, but no more than 7 mircodots at a time :P

Seriously, yeah, I'm almost positive we can. Actually, we already "have" freedom.
Once an individual truly internalizes the fact that much of the "world" is simply human
construct, that person is free. Free of illusions. Free from the sway of the arrogantly misguided.
Free from the constraints of all our productions (law,money,religion,social order,governance,etc.).
When the free person reaches the boundaries of one of these they will righteously defy.
This is the Information Age!
Seek understanding above all things. The truth will set you free.

[Green]

Sadly, some cannot. That is why we need to mess with making and maintaining some beurocratic, expensive, aristocratic, safety net called government.

[Fido]

Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?

Sure. Empathy, sympathy, and morality all work to create an individual who is good to others without the threat or force of law; and that is the main requirement of freedom: Self control. Without the ability to control ourselves we will always be in conflict with others and inviting intervention.
I think a more salient question is whether a nation can defend its freedoms once they have them and whether government is the appropriate method for the defense of freedom, when the power needed for defense destroys the freedom of the powerless immediately.

[Gus]

Presently, some can and some can't. If we all could, there would probably be perfect or near-perfect peace.

[Ellron]

Fido wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?

Sure. Empathy, sympathy, and morality all work to create an individual who is good to others without the threat or force of law; and that is the main requirement of freedom: Self control. Without the ability to control ourselves we will always be in conflict with others and inviting intervention.
I think a more salient question is whether a nation can defend its freedoms once they have them and whether government is the appropriate method for the defense of freedom, when the power needed for defense destroys the freedom of the powerless immediately.

Morality? Empathy? You think those things are free? I would consider them parts of society that have been ingrained into you. Thats not self control thats just society holding you back.

[Fido]

Ellron wrote: Fido wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?

Sure. Empathy, sympathy, and morality all work to create an individual who is good to others without the threat or force of law; and that is the main requirement of freedom: Self control. Without the ability to control ourselves we will always be in conflict with others and inviting intervention.
I think a more salient question is whether a nation can defend its freedoms once they have them and whether government is the appropriate method for the defense of freedom, when the power needed for defense destroys the freedom of the powerless immediately.

Morality? Empathy? You think those things are free? I would consider them parts of society that have been ingrained into you. Thats not self control thats just society holding you back.

Perhaps lame-brained into me, as I certainly fought with the idea of society. But my society is different from your society, and the fact that you don't like yours warns me off. I like my society which is the extension of my family, and I find myself in receipt of society, and as the bearer of society. Yes, I am a carrier of that awful thing called society. But cheer up! My society is not like the power structures of institutions, businesses, and state. My society is human, and built around human relationships. Seeing it as it is it is no problem to hold my self back from injury to others. Rather I find myself always willing for their defense. And this is no great effort I put forth. I see my society like myself, and can easily scrape away the mud of bureaucracy. That stuff is all inessential form.

[AllAmericanMan]

I think of a quick look of how messed up our world is screams at us that Man is stupid and cant handle anything.

[Fido]

AllAmericanMan wrote: I think of a quick look of how messed up our world is screams at us that Man is stupid and cant handle anything.

We do pretty good in some respects, but we love the machine and hate people. We think a machine like the constitution, or laws, or church, or school when once set up like an automaton will give us peace flowers and rock and roll. This is extremely lazy, which we are, but counter productive in the long run. The constitution bought peace for four score or more years at the price of worse carnage than if the bull was cut when young; and for all that carnage worse lies ahead for the unlicked problems presented still by the constitution. And what is the alternative? That we get out of bed every day and say government is my responsibility, and I have to leave time for it. This might require that we actually relate to people as people and not through forms like law and government. We might actually have to give a thit, and get to know our neighbor. Freedom is a hard master, but slavery is worse. Freedom is possible if we abandon the structural and institutional approach to freedom, and quit believing there is a device for freeing people. All institutions become in time an enemy to those they are designed to serve. And the worst in human character results from the failures of institutions to give hope and suggest meaning to people.

[Ellron]

Fido wrote: Ellron wrote: Fido wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?

Sure. Empathy, sympathy, and morality all work to create an individual who is good to others without the threat or force of law; and that is the main requirement of freedom: Self control. Without the ability to control ourselves we will always be in conflict with others and inviting intervention.
I think a more salient question is whether a nation can defend its freedoms once they have them and whether government is the appropriate method for the defense of freedom, when the power needed for defense destroys the freedom of the powerless immediately.

Morality? Empathy? You think those things are free? I would consider them parts of society that have been ingrained into you. Thats not self control thats just society holding you back.

Perhaps lame-brained into me, as I certainly fought with the idea of society. But my society is different from your society, and the fact that you don't like yours warns me off. I like my society which is the extension of my family, and I find myself in receipt of society, and as the bearer of society. Yes, I am a carrier of that awful thing called society. But cheer up! My society is not like the power structures of institutions, businesses, and state. My society is human, and built around human relationships. Seeing it as it is it is no problem to hold my self back from injury to others. Rather I find myself always willing for their defense. And this is no great effort I put forth. I see my society like myself, and can easily scrape away the mud of bureaucracy. That stuff is all inessential form.

That really got you know where thats still society affecting you.

[Ellron]

Fido wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: I think of a quick look of how messed up our world is screams at us that Man is stupid and cant handle anything.

We do pretty good in some respects, but we love the machine and hate people. We think a machine like the constitution, or laws, or church, or school when once set up like an automaton will give us peace flowers and rock and roll. This is extremely lazy, which we are, but counter productive in the long run. The constitution bought peace for four score or more years at the price of worse carnage than if the bull was cut when young; and for all that carnage worse lies ahead for the unlicked problems presented still by the constitution. And what is the alternative? That we get out of bed every day and say government is my responsibility, and I have to leave time for it. This might require that we actually relate to people as people and not through forms like law and government. We might actually have to give a thit, and get to know our neighbor. Freedom is a hard master, but slavery is worse. Freedom is possible if we abandon the structural and institutional approach to freedom, and quit believing there is a device for freeing people. All institutions become in time an enemy to those they are designed to serve. And the worst in human character results from the failures of institutions to give hope and suggest meaning to people.

This is just annoying me.. Can you stop it with this freedom love crap? Thats what politicians do.

[Aqualung]

Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?
I think the more freedom we have, the more able we are to handle freedom. Once the freedom starts going away, though, we become less and less adept. So, could today's man handle freedom? I seriously doubt it. But can man handle freedom? Yes.

[Fido]

Ellron wrote: Fido wrote: AllAmericanMan wrote: I think of a quick look of how messed up our world is screams at us that Man is stupid and cant handle anything.

We do pretty good in some respects, but we love the machine and hate people. We think a machine like the constitution, or laws, or church, or school when once set up like an automaton will give us peace flowers and rock and roll. This is extremely lazy, which we are, but counter productive in the long run. The constitution bought peace for four score or more years at the price of worse carnage than if the bull was cut when young; and for all that carnage worse lies ahead for the unlicked problems presented still by the constitution. And what is the alternative? That we get out of bed every day and say government is my responsibility, and I have to leave time for it. This might require that we actually relate to people as people and not through forms like law and government. We might actually have to give a thit, and get to know our neighbor. Freedom is a hard master, but slavery is worse. Freedom is possible if we abandon the structural and institutional approach to freedom, and quit believing there is a device for freeing people. All institutions become in time an enemy to those they are designed to serve. And the worst in human character results from the failures of institutions to give hope and suggest meaning to people.

This is just annoying me.. Can you stop it with this freedom love crap? Thats what politicians do.

All people need to do to have freedom is to understand its limits. So long as people control themselves and attempt to control those affairs that will control them if left alone they will be fine. Expecting to control all others without some claim to right invites tyranny over all. Hard work and diligence has always been the price of freedom; and perhaps now we should consider universal good will and trust as essential.

[George W Bush]

whats ironic is the structures in place have been born from another mans vision of freedom.

you can either agree, or do something to create your own version.

however, there is no freedom in working within the bounds of some others vision of freedom.

[thefranzkafkafront]

CrossEyedMary wrote: Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?
I think the more freedom we have, the more able we are to handle freedom. Once the freedom starts going away, though, we become less and less adept. So, could today's man handle freedom? I seriously doubt it. But can man handle freedom? Yes.

Intresting take.

However it seems some what to do against the liberal revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuary.

[The Ferryman]

sparsely wrote: Yes, but no more than 7 mircodots at a time :P

Seriously, yeah, I'm almost positive we can. Actually, we already "have" freedom.
Once an individual truly internalizes the fact that much of the "world" is simply human
construct, that person is free. Free of illusions. Free from the sway of the arrogantly misguided.
Free from the constraints of all our productions (law,money,religion,social order,governance,etc.).
When the free person reaches the boundaries of one of these they will righteously defy.
This is the Information Age!
Seek understanding above all things. The truth will set you free.


Have to agree w/you; except it's no more than 7 plus or minus 2 microdots at any point in time.

[Silkheat]

Green wrote: Sadly, some cannot. That is why we need to mess with making and maintaining some beurocratic, expensive, aristocratic, safety net called government.

Exactly

[Fido]

George W Bush wrote: whats ironic is the structures in place have been born from another mans vision of freedom.

you can either agree, or do something to create your own version.

however, there is no freedom in working within the bounds of some others vision of freedom.

I think the structures we are working with - Law, government, religion and education for example, have evolved. Much of what we have started as a religious view, or a philosophy; and every generation has brought a little tweak to it until on the inside we have people served by the structure and outside people wondering why or what it is about. If we say that Western law was modern a thousand years ago, then we must presume that people in that age had other ways of obtaining justice, and achieving peace. Yet we can find in our Indo European roots a concern for law and justice that extend back in time, and that populate our earliest tragedies with anti heroes. On the near end we can find legalistic systems that could hardly wipe themselves without a writ, and could not reform themselves or adapt in any fashion, and so were wiped away. Now, we know people were once more free and paid for that freedom with constant fear or preparedness, and that people survived their freedoms until freedom should seem a secondary consideration, as it always is after food. The opinion I hold is that if law does not make free, but rather extends slavery universally by denying Justice, then it will not last, and cannot last, but rather invites invasion or revolution with its weakness; and so is no advantage to survival or happiness. What is the point? To be free we must have justice and equity, and to have justice we must have freedom and equity; and on top of all of this to be one people, and one nation is a help, and we are not. When we find the keys to freedom and justice in this country we will have it for the world, for we are the final destination.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Ellron wrote: Can man handle true freedom?

Freedom from society, family, govornment, and any other outside entities?

Or

Do we need outside entities to tell us what to do what to strive for why we live?

Can man make goals for himself naturally or is it all externally?

Sadly enough, take a look back at what happened here in the U.S. after Hurricane Katrina. That answer your question?

[Magorion]

Not any more than woman. :)