Political Crossfire Forums

Hector victorious · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: There is NO freedom!

There is no such thing as freedom anywhere you go!

The only freedom ANYONE has: is the freedom of choice. and thats a built it freedom.

So we say that USA is a free country. well if we're so free than why do we have laws? and why do we have jails and prisons.

A law is just like someone holding you to a wall and saying: "follow my rules or be punished!"

So What is freedomm other than freedom of choice?

LordMortis · Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 33

Whoo-hoo! Yay, anarchy!

I agree with everything you just said.

Da Vinci · Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 5

Hector victorious wrote: There is no such thing as freedom anywhere you go!

The only freedom ANYONE has: is the freedom of choice. and thats a built it freedom.

So we say that USA is a free country. well if we're so free than why do we have laws? and why do we have jails and prisons.

A law is just like someone holding you to a wall and saying: "follow my rules or be punished!"

So What is freedomm other than freedom of choice?

What your saying is true however without laws (however ridiculous and pointless they are) and without prisons or jails or other such restrictions human society would crumble. If your saying that anarchy is the way to go it simply wouldn’t work. Anarchy is built on the belief that people in a society without any laws or restrictions would help each other. However people are naturally greedy therefore anarchy would lead to nothing but bloodshed and most likely an eventual rise of a dictator.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

We have no freedom because freedom must be surrendered to enslave others, or to control others. We can only enjoy freedom to the extent we share it equally. The master does not take the slaves freedom. Each gives up freedom with the same act. So what does the master have if not freedom? Control, or perhaps relatively more power. But freedom is an absolute state where one has self control and abandons control of others. Without the exploitation found always with slavery there is no shackle of doubt or fear. The master is the slave to slavery, and both slavery and freedom are shared forms of relationship.

Green · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject:

LordMortis wrote: Whoo-hoo! Yay, anarchy!

I agree with everything you just said.
Do I have to do the usual anti-anarchy arguments.

Government under the Declaration of Independence says that government must protect life, liberty and property. If we did not have cops, people would shoot eachother. If we did not make a law telling people to drive away from train tracks when a train is coming by, I know plenty of people stupid enough to do so.

Government is not perfect, with problems including corruption and the wealthy feasting on the poor. The power of the people , when united, control the government for the people's benefit. It's better than chaos.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Green wrote: LordMortis wrote: Whoo-hoo! Yay, anarchy!

I agree with everything you just said.

Quote: Government under the Declaration of Independence says that government must protect life, liberty and property.

I will have to deffer to you, if you have a copy of the DofI, but I thought happiness replaced in the declaration the common enlightenment reference to property.

Quote: If we did not have cops, people would shoot eachother. If we did not make a law telling people to drive away from train tracks when a train is coming by, I know plenty of people stupid enough to do so.

If you know people who are that stupid it is a testament to the failure of capitalism and republican government to educate the people once they have the power to do so, and in fact when the power to do almost anything, is vested in them. The ignorance of the masses is an excuse to keep them from power, and their powerlessness is the excuse to keep them from education. When it cost so far less for a first class education than a stay in prison, why are people not educated? It is not the educated, unless we are talking of white collar crime, who are the criminals.

Do you see as a common matter that people are compelled to do right, or prevented by force from doing wrong? Normal people do what is right because they know what is right, and if they break a law, like speeding, it is because the general lawlessness encourages it along with necessity. People go with the flow in traffic and in all other facets of their lives, and they are right to, when it hurts no one, which people consider as relevant, even if the judge does not. Law has its beginning in reinforcing moral behavior with official authority. Once official authority has control there is no guarantee that moral control will result. In fact, the very act of removing power from people is immoral and the cause of all immorality. When government puts might before morality it destroys the cohesion of society, and community that are the sole source of social peace and justice. Without social cohesion the exercise of force, and the threat of punishment only create more criminals and more dangerous criminals. I do not believe we have a problem with crime. We have a problem with law. I have been stuck behind people who can't make a left turn without a green arrow, and have been with people who will stop at a red light in the dead of night with full visibility and no one coming; but waited till the light turned green. That is the worse thing, in my opinion. When people get so hooked on following authority that they can no longer consider any moral alternative.

Quote: Government is not perfect,

Why not? Since we all have to deal with the thing, and the thing has the power to improve our existence or threaten our existence entirely; why do we settle for less than all we might have in government? No one on this earth would choose to be governed by people dead for two hundred years, or to be bound and gagged to boot by corpses. Is this the best we can do? We wouldn't let these people with their conceptions of liberty or science, or history or literature teach at any high school in America; and yet we let them run our lives from the grave. How stupid is that?

Quote: It's better than chaos .

From what I can see it resembles chaos in the extreme. The people do not control their government, so the government controls them, and since the people have no control of the government, the government is out of control, and does as it pleases like a spoiled child, making messes too big to walk away from, dishonoring us to the world, and making enemies among former friends that it cannot protect us from. The job government should do, which is to control industry in the interest of the general welfare, to protect the population from exploitation, injustice, denial of rights and destruction of health- it does not do. Therefore, law is needed even more drastically to control a dispossessed and demoralized population. And what is the result? One in what, 135? people are in jail? How many are in the system, or otherwise deprived of freedom and rights by law? And to my understanding, of violent crimes, less than two percent ever result in a conviction. How well is law doing at anything other than the creation of criminals? They used to hang children for stealing bread and it never stopped hungry children from stealing bread. What was the purpose of the exercise?

Hector victorious · Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 8:55 am Post subject:

ok...

Im not saying that Anarchy is the way to go. Im saying that we are making VERY VERY false statements! We say we're the "land of the free"
in the national anthom at every Baseball game in the season.

going off topic for a second: we (well christians do) say that when someone dies they "go to a better place", right? Well how come when someone gets shot, we punish them with life in prison or execution!
so we're basicly killing them for "sending someone to a better place".

Back on topic:

If we really had freedom: we would all have the things we wanted and the country would collapse and basicly a mini-apocolypse would occur.

But my point of this topic is: We arent free at all. just in our minds are we ever free. so does "Land of the free" need to be in our national anthom?
I think not.

tripleseas · Joined: 25 May 2006 Posts: 7 Location: Earth

The most ironic objection to anarchy is the fear of widespread violence, theft, and murder.... the very definition of government.

Snarf · Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 5377

Hector victorious wrote: There is no such thing as freedom anywhere you go!

The only freedom ANYONE has: is the freedom of choice. and thats a built it freedom.

So we say that USA is a free country. well if we're so free than why do we have laws? and why do we have jails and prisons.

A law is just like someone holding you to a wall and saying: "follow my rules or be punished!"

So What is freedomm other than freedom of choice?
Death frees us all. Until then, it's rather hit and miss...

Hector victorious · Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject:

death frees us.... yea i see your point but until dwath we're stuck with almost nof reedom at all...

Not very good for the so-called "people".

so saying that we are freed when we die just sends a message to people who wanna be free: "kill your selves and be free forever!"

not gonna work long...
the only creature REALLY free: Animals.
they can do whatever they want and the only punishment they can get is being attacked by a predator.

Jimmy Madison · Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 1031 Location: Indiana

Quote: But my point of this topic is: We arent free at all. just in our minds are we ever free. so does "Land of the free" need to be in our national anthom?

You assume the phrase in the national anthem is talking about or using freedom in the same way as you understand the term. However, I do not think the phrase in the national anthem is suggesting we are absolutely free in our decisions and actions. I think the phrase is referencing our freedom in specific but numerous contexts!

George W Bush · Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject:

actually, we are free to ignore law and do as we please.

but thats more a personal philosophy spawed from the citations of "were free" arguers.

I agree, we are not actually free - but thats something on paper.

were always free to decide what we want. if you get held back, you are free to fight/flight, or to abide.

Personally, laws are obstacles to true freedom. but nothing that cannot be overcome.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:

Your born with certain inalienable freeborn rights.

A state can either respect these or attempt to supress them.

perdidochas · Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 15424 Location: Florida

Hector victorious wrote: There is no such thing as freedom anywhere you go!

The only freedom ANYONE has: is the freedom of choice. and thats a built it freedom.

So we say that USA is a free country. well if we're so free than why do we have laws? and why do we have jails and prisons.

A law is just like someone holding you to a wall and saying: "follow my rules or be punished!"

So What is freedomm other than freedom of choice?

You can't have freedom without laws. Without laws, the rule would be might makes right. Might makes right is hardly freedom (unless you are the most mighty, but even then, it's hard to be free looking over you shoulder for someone to be mightier than you).

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

Hector victorious wrote: ok...

If we really had freedom: we would all have the things we wanted and the country would collapse and basicly a mini-apocolypse would occur.

But my point of this topic is: We arent free at all. just in our minds are we ever free. so does "Land of the free" need to be in our national anthom?
I think not.

That's it? Why the mythic image of a mythic past shows up at base ball games? Git out of Dodge.

If we really had freedom, wages would not always be reduced to the cost of living. We would not necessarily have any more of what we want because we are free. If we were free, freedom would describe our common characteristic, much as the Franks were called the free. So if I may speak frankly, to have more in material goods we might have to sacrifice some of our freedom and take that of others. To have freedom we must give it. And freedom from political tyranny or government parasites is not freedom from the vagaries of nature. And vigilance and an irascible temper are also necessary for the possession of freedom. Those lazy in thought or habit are the first to suffer the want of freedom.

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

[quote="perdidochas"] Hector victorious wrote:

You can't have freedom without laws. Without laws, the rule would be might makes right. Might makes right is hardly freedom (unless you are the most mighty, but even then, it's hard to be free looking over you shoulder for someone to be mightier than you).

You cannot have freedom without justice, but in the words of Abalard: Jus (justice) is the Genus, and lex (law) a species of it. So what is law without power to the law makers and enforcers? If they hold the keys who is free? And, if all society is divided by a prison wall, which side is free? That is where we are today: divided communities, isolated individuals. Law will tolerate no competition. Whether it does its job well or not at all, law accepts no power but law. It is not right. It is not just, but it is the power in society, and that is all. We should consider whether society was less peaceful or more violent when justice was personal, and feuds were as common as marriages.

grapefruit of wisdom · Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 11 Location: New York

Everyone has freedom. But no one however, has freedom from consequences.
You have the freedom to break any law you want. Doesn't mean you'll always get away with it. In this light, we live in constant freedom. Its just that we complain about the consequences. :?

Fido · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 3936

grapefruit of wisdom wrote: Everyone has freedom. But no one however, has freedom from consequences.
You have the freedom to break any law you want. Doesn't mean you'll always get away with it. In this light, we live in constant freedom. Its just that we complain about the consequences. :?

Or it could be that the need for social organization for change makes people suspect before any act or any consequences. I see at least some effort to identify the disaffected part of society, and I find reason to suspect everyone who needs company in Resistance. There is a reason to fear the level of technology that suggests a solution in every person being monitored, and having the power to do such a thing. Fear your neighbor, and fear the agent provocateur.

EugenicHegemony · Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 4658

Green wrote: Government under the Declaration of Independence says that government must protect life, liberty and property. If we did not have cops, people would shoot eachother. If we did not make a law telling people to drive away from train tracks when a train is coming by, I know plenty of people stupid enough to do so.
The Declaration of Independence was a great thing. Too bad aristocrats set up a system that's no better than what we fought to get away from. People will shoot each other regardless, as evidenced by the fact that they do. Your "train" example is absurd. "Freedom's on the march" is most certainly a blatant U.S. governmental lie. Try, slavery's on the march.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Your born with certain inalienable freeborn rights.

A state can either respect these or attempt to supress them.

No, "inalienable freeborn rights" are social constructions and they do not exist in reality. Indeed, what is true is that "Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains." That is because a human being is socially conditioned in various ways and values and cultural definitions give meaning to a person's life and he/she sees the whole world through the lens that his/her society has given him through culture and language. So in effect, humanity is in chains with even their "inalienable freeborn rights" at the mercy of a collective.

And that is truly depressing.